More affordable compression lock knives

[Gtscotty]

I'm all for more affordable everything, but it's their premium lock so I wouldn't expect to see a Tenacious with a CL. I bet it would sell like crazy though.

But would be downgraded knife for me.
Its linerlock is great !! I often think people don't give this locktype an unbiased try...

I think that's pretty unlikely, I'd bet pretty much everyone who has had a locking folding knife has had a liner lock, they are truly ubiquitous. Just because folks have experience with different lock types, doesn't mean that they'll agree with you or each other about preference. Conversely just because folks don't agree with your preferences doesn't mean they don't have any or even as much "unbiased" experience.

I like liner locks just fine, but not as much as a good frame lock, a compression lock, or maybe even a solid back lock.

I like the idea of cheaper FRN versions of more expensive Spyderco offerings, but wouldn't want to sacrifice on steel as much as handle material. BD1N blade steel across the board would probably be a no go for me, but I'd be ok with S30V. I'd bet the price difference between those two has less to do with material and processing cost than it does just product placement in the pricing structure tiers, but who knows.

[Wartstein]

the tenacious line have very good liner locks, but i still prefer compression locks. especially since the blade comes all the way to the handle and will definitely hit your thumb if you don't move it quickly enough. i've never cut myself with my resilience, but there's no way it's a better lock than the compression lock. it's not safer or stronger, even if it's well-executed.

Its linerlock is great !! I often think people don't give this locktype an unbiased try...

I think that's pretty unlikely, I'd bet pretty much everyone who has had a locking folding knife has had a liner lock, they are truly ubiquitous. Just because folks have experience with different lock types, doesn't mean that they'll agree with you or each other about preference. Conversely just because folks don't agree with your preferences doesn't mean they don't have any or even as much "unbiased" experience.

I like liner locks just fine, but not as much as a good frame lock, a compression lock, or maybe even a solid back lock.
...

[Videos: See end of my post]
[/b]Folks, I am actually a bit surprised
While I clearly state the for me (!) the linerlock is overall clearly better than the comp.lock (and I have good reasoning, see below), you state the opposite as if it was a fact (comp.lock "better") - when this is all subjective and of course on a discussion forum people will always have differing views.

- @Gscotty:
- Yes, most people have tried linerlocks, but there can be a huge difference between a well made by Spyderco one and a badly executed in a flimsy knife by some other brand - while pretty much ALL comp.locks are well executed ones
- I am not saying that you or many forum members are biased!
But generally, in the youtube/social media crowd it seems to be common "knowledge" that the comp. lock is an upgrade an superior to the linerlock, and not just an alternative,
And this by people who certainly often never used their knives in various conditions (or even hardly at all ), but just like to frantically flick them (here the comp. lock IS "superior".

@Ladybug;
For me (!) a good linerlock is both "better" and safer than a comp.lock, no doubt (the comp.lock is certainly stronger, but this is of no practical relevance for me: Who had ever a Millie really fail?!)

Let me give you my reasoning, pics and vids included:

- Safety
- Sure, the comp.lock has one way to "keep the fingers all the time out of the blade path" - but a rather awkward one and pretty unsafe concerning accidently dropping the knife (I would not want to perform the typical comp.lock closing method up on a climbing wall with cold finger...), plus rather unnatural, cause all fingers have to be moved away from their natural grip position in an a bit weird pinch grip
...and for me totally unnecessary, cause like you I never, ever cut myself with a linerlock knife and it is NOT true that the "edge hits the thumb" with knives like the Resilience if you don´t move the fingers out of the way quickly. (and even less so with a CHOILED knife like the Millie..)
- While, if you operate a comp.lock in any other way than the a bit strange "fingers out of the blade path" one - the edge DOES hit the fingers.
So, for me: clear win for the linerlock. Large, perfectly accessible lockbar cutout, also with gloves, right where the fingers are anyway, fingers don´t have to be moved to the upper part of the handle and so on

See here:
- Vid 1: Closing the Tenacious linerlock (no choil!!) [/i] when released with the thumb (The when opened hidden) "Ricasso" hits the finger, not the edge (and this on a NO CHOIL knife...would be even better WITH a choil)
- Vid 2: Same with a index finger release: Again, "Ricasso" hits the finger
- Vid 3: [Don´t have a comp.lock knife with me right now, so lets pretend the Tenacious would be one]: Closing a comp.lock while the knife stays safe in the hand: locktab pressed with the index finger, but on top of the handle, so the rest of the fingers ARE in the blade path, and would be even with a knife with choil...
So: The comp.lock has one way to be closed with "fingers all the time out of the blade path", but a pretty unnatural and unsafe one (concerning safety of the knife in hand), has a smaller, less conveniently placed locktab, AND all other methods are actually LESS safe for the fingers than with a linerlock... (especially with floppy, free dropping comp.lock blades)

https://streamable.com/nygr5m

https://streamable.com/8z3798

https://streamable.com/cofkp0

[Wartstein]

the tenacious line have very good liner locks, but i still prefer compression locks. especially since the blade comes all the way to the handle and will definitely hit your thumb if you don't move it quickly enough. i've never cut myself with my resilience, but there's no way it's a better lock than the compression lock. it's not safer or stronger, even if it's well-executed.

For me (!) a good linerlock is both "better" and safer than a comp.lock, no doubt (the comp.lock is certainly stronger, but this is of no practical relevance for me: Who had ever a Millie really fail?!)

Let me give you my reasoning, [pics and vids included, see end of post]


- Safety
- Sure, the comp.lock has one way to "keep the fingers all the time out of the blade path" - but a rather awkward one and pretty unsafe concerning accidently dropping the knife (I would not want to perform the typical comp.lock closing method up on a climbing wall with cold finger...), plus rather unnatural, cause all fingers have to be moved away from their natural grip position in an a bit weird pinch grip
...and for me totally unnecessary, cause like you I never, ever cut myself with a linerlock knife and it is NOT true that the "edge hits the thumb" with knives like the Resilience if you don´t move the fingers out of the way quickly. (and even less so with a CHOILED knife like the Millie..)
- While, if you operate a comp.lock in any other way than the a bit strange "fingers out of the blade path" one - the edge DOES hit the fingers, especially with the floppy, drop shutty comp.lock blades
So, for me: clear win for the linerlock. Large, perfectly accessible lockbar cutout, also with gloves, right where the fingers are anyway, fingers don´t have to be moved to the upper part of the handle and so on

See here:
- Vid 1: Closing the Tenacious linerlock (no choil!!) [/i] when released with the thumb (The when opened hidden) "Ricasso" hits the finger, not the edge
- Vid 2: Same with a index finger release: Again, "Ricasso" hits the finger
- Vid 3: [Don´t have a comp.lock knife with me right now, so lets pretend the Tenacious would be one]: Closing a comp.lock while the knife stays safe in the hand: locktab pressed with the index finger, but on top of the handle, so the rest of the fingers ARE in the blade path, and would be even with a knife with choil...
So: The comp.lock has one way to be closed with "fingers all the time out of the blade path", but a pretty unnatural and unsafe one (concerning safety of the knife in hand), has a smaller, less conveniently placed locktab, AND all other methods are actually LESS safe for the fingers than with a linerlock... (especially with floppy, free dropping comp.lock blades)

https://streamable.com/nygr5m

https://streamable.com/8z3798

https://streamable.com/cofkp0

... and two pics (linerlock thumb and index release)

[Evil D]

I'm all for more affordable everything, but it's their premium lock so I wouldn't expect to see a Tenacious with a CL. I bet it would sell like crazy though.

But would be downgraded knife for me.
Its linerlock is great !! I often think people don't give this locktype an unbiased try...

I'm sort of indifferent about the lock, it depends on the whole package. I like the liner lock on the Military but I don't think I'd want the same lock on all my knives just because I like the Military. Honestly I'm coming around to the back lock camp now that designs like the Rock Jumper are "fixing" the issues I have with the ricardo, and if more models were done with the handle forward design I would be more than happy with back locks.

[RamZar]

Para3 Lightweight Compression Lock with CTS-BD1N steel blade and Black FRN for $105.00 would be the affordable option.

You can step up to CPM-SPY27 and Blue FRN but then the price goes up to $140!

Alternatively, between the two you have Sage5 with CPM-S30V and Black FRN for $122.50.

[Wartstein]

I'm all for more affordable everything, but it's their premium lock so I wouldn't expect to see a Tenacious with a CL. I bet it would sell like crazy though.

But would be downgraded knife for me.
Its linerlock is great !! I often think people don't give this locktype an unbiased try...

I'm sort of indifferent about the lock, it depends on the whole package. I like the liner lock on the Military but I don't think I'd want the same lock on all my knives just because I like the Military. Honestly I'm coming around to the back lock camp now that designs like the Rock Jumper are "fixing" the issues I have with the ricardo, and if more models were done with the handle forward design I would be more than happy with back locks.

Sure, backlock will always be number one for me too. Overall still the most versatile (concerning one handed closing methods), safest (for the "fingers", safety of knife in hand while operating the lock, strength and in pocket) and very convenient lock.

Still, the most convenient in use for me is a good linerlock.

Comp.lock is cool and technically ingenious, but for me more suited for smaller, urban style knives.

I'd certainly own a Caribbean and very likely a Shaman if they featured a linerlock.

[curlyhairedboy]

I'd be a fan of more accessible compression lock knives - I think Spyderco is too, considering how well the sage 5 LW is. That knife is very, VERY hard to argue with as an ideal recommendation for an urban-friendly modern EDC.

[Wartstein]

.....think Spyderco is too, considering how well the sage 5 LW is. That knife is very, VERY hard to argue with as an ideal recommendation for an urban-friendly modern EDC.

Perfectly put.

I do hope the Sage 5 LW will become "the" small compression lock platform for many variants.

[Michael Janich]

Dear ncspyderfan:

Welcome to the Spyderco Forum.

In general, achieving cost savings on a knife model means using less expensive materials and eliminating machining processes by investing in the tooling for injection-molded scales. How much cost savings you achieve always depends upon where you start and where you end up.

The Sage 5 is actually an excellent example of this process. The original version with CF/G-10 laminate scales has a $234 MSRP. The lightweight version with FRN scales trims that price to $175 while maintaining a CPM S30V blade. That's a 25% reduction in MSRP.

In contrast, the Tenacious G-10 has a $75 MSRP and is already a great bargain. The lightweight version sells for $65, a 13% reduction. There's still a savings, but not as much.

Like everything else in life, it's a balancing act...

Stay safe,

Mike

[ncspyderfan]

I have looked at the Sage 5 LW and Para 3 LW but with my XL hands, I usually go for knives on the larger side.

I still may end up with one but I also prefer G10 to FRN on most knives. I like my Endura as is but on most knives I like G10 more.

I am caring less about blade steel recently. My wife got me a knife in 14C28N and my Endura in VG-10 both have fine steels for my daily use. I do not work a job that requires a knife to be used heavily and I have a PM2 for harder use while camping.

This thought largely came about because of the Kapara DLT Trading G10 sprint run. I usually see about $203 as the price for the CF S30V Kapara and the G10 20CV version was $197. When I saw that I just though that it would be cool to see a sprint run or full production model that was G10 and a more affordable steel like VG10 or 154CM. The price went down even with the 20CV upgrade due to the savings with the G10. If instead there was savings on steel and G10, I wonder what the price could've been. I think a G10 and 154CM/VG10 Kapara would sell in huge volume if the price went down enough.

[lilshaver]

Not to derail the thread, but has there been a sprint or exclusive of the Sage 5 LW?

This one is a me too. I am impatiently waiting for this to happen.

[Airlsee]

Just to add to Michael's point about the Tenacious LW only being 13% cheaper. Eric mentioned in a Knife Center video that G10 in China is extremely cheap since they use it in circuit boards and other electronics, making it readily available. So the cost savings in Polymers V G10 is not as great as it is in knives manufactured outside of China.

[ugaarguy]

I have looked at the Sage 5 LW and Para 3 LW but with my XL hands, I usually go for knives on the larger side.

...

I also have XL glove size hands. The Para 3 LW is a little cramped for me, but Sage 5 LW is great. The handle design at the tail end of the Sage 5 really helps to give that extra bit of pinky finger room over the Para 3.

[ncspyderfan]

Y’all are talking me into the sage 5 LW. I also would like to give the Manix 2 LW or regular another chance. The jimping on the spine was tearing holes in the corner of my pockets when inserted or removed but I liked the design. Did the spine jimping tear up anyone else’s pockets or did I probably just have a too aggressively jimped spine?

[sal]

Hi NCSpyderfan,

Welcome to our forum.

As Ugaarguy mentioned, the material changes that you are suggesting will not make a big difference in the end cost. G-10 has to be machined which is expensive. The only real way to make knives more "affordable" is to build in China due to their very low Yuan/dollar exchange rate. I would guess, and it's only a guess, that China makes more knives than all of the other non Chinese made knives combined?

sal

[anycal]

Compression lock is great, no doubt. As it is on my favorite knife, I am quite used to it. I use it more than any other lock.

There are three ways I commonly close compression locked knife, as well as two handed, so four. I have never cut myself (can't say that about liner lock), never dropped the knife (can't say that about BB), and more ways to close it than back lock. No problem using the the lock with garden gloves, vinyl gloves, or ski gloves.

That doesn't mean that I need compression lock on every knife. Just as someone who likes a different lock doesn't need to convince others of their preference. If you have a good experience with a lock, who is anyone to say that you are wrong, or that there are better ones out there.

Wart, your #3 doesn't make any sense when closing a compression lock. However, it is very easy and safe to close it like a back lock - using your thumb to disengage the lock, and letting the finger choil drop on your index finger.

[Wartstein]

Compression lock is great, no doubt. As it is on my favorite knife, I am quite used to it. I use it more than any other lock.

There are three ways I commonly close compression locked knife, as well as two handed, so four. I have never cut myself (can't say that about liner lock), never dropped the knife (can't say that about BB), and more ways to close it than back lock. No problem using the the lock with garden gloves, vinyl gloves, or ski gloves.

That doesn't mean that I need compression lock on every knife. Just as someone who likes a different lock doesn't need to convince others of their preference. If you have a good experience with a lock, who is anyone to say that you are wrong, or that there are better ones out there.

Wart, your #3 doesn't make any sense when closing a compression lock. However, it is very easy and safe to close it like a back lock - using your thumb to disengage the lock, and letting the finger choil drop on your index finger.

Right, and that´s why I show the advantages or at least good sides of the linerlock - cause quite some people (not you!!) constantly try to convince others that the comp lock is "superior" to the linerlock period, or even state this as an objective fact - so someone just has to speak out for the linerlock from time to time in order to make things more realistic and objective again - and counter a bit those who actually DO say that one is "wrong" cause he happens to like the linerlock more and always point out that the comp. lock just HAS to be better.
Linerlock and comp.lock are just two alternatives, both good, but I personally happen to have experienced clearly more advantages in the linerlock.

I´ve never cut myself with a comp lock too - but actually with NO lock ever, and I honestly can´t see how this should happen with a linerlock to me - ?!
I did read several times though that people dropped their comp.lock knives while operating the lock, as well as that (very rarely!) the lock got unlocked accidently when really bearing down on the knife.

/ Yes, you´re right, my third vid where I try to imitate a comp.lock knife with a linerlock knife is pretty bad and does not make too much sense :o
I just wanted to show (and exaggerated) that when one presses the comp. lock tab with the index finger, this finger obviously is no longer at the bottom of the handle in a position where choil or even the small, hidden Ricasso of the Tenacious (and NOT the edge) would hit it
The middle finger though is then still at the bottom of the handle, where the edge would hit it.
Not so on a linerlock: Its more natural operation leaves the index finger in the natural grip position at the bottom of the handle, where it acts as a stop for the blade at a point where there is no edge, but always choil or ricasso - perfectly safe in my extensive linerlock experience!

And sure, if there is a choil you can just let it drop on your index finger when pressing the comp. lock tab with the thumb!
BUT: I really can´t imagine how one could cut themselves with a linerlock knife that has a choil either - hard to do, right?!

And in order to press the comp.lock tab with the thumb, you still have to move that finger away from its natural grip position - while with a linerlock the thumb basically just stays where it is when gripping the knife - this is what I mean by most natural and user friendly.

Anyway: There are reasons to like the comp lock better and reasons to like the linerlock better - but in no way is the former objectively "superior" to the latter, and also not vice versa.
And I am not even talking about comfort in hand here, where - just for me(!!) - the linerlock wins again (comp.lock cutout can get pretty uncomfortable in harder, prolongued use)

[ladybug93]

i'm pretty sure all cuts are user error, but this was from playing with my chicago. to be fair, i've opened and closed liner/frame lock knives thousands of times and this is the only time i've been bit by one. it wasn't that bad of a cut, but man did it bleed forever. it's far less probable to cut yourself when your fingers are never in the path of the blade.

i'm not saying liner locks are unsafe. i'm just saying they're not as safe as comp locks because your thumb has to be in the blade path to disengage the lock. even if you never cut yourself because you're more careful than i was, that doesn't change the objective fact that one requires fingers in the blade path and one doesn't.

[ncspyderfan]

Thanks for responding Sal,

I didn’t know how much of a price difference it would make. It is nice to learn a little more about the business even if it means that the idea of more budget friendly materials wouldn’t be that practical. I will probably get the Sage 5 LW, it looks like a great value and great knife in general.

[Higher]

Linerlock and comp.lock are just two alternatives, both good, but I personally happen to have experienced clearly more advantages in the linerlock.

as vivi said: "I have nothing to say on this topic, but I can't walk past so as not to throw in my two cents"
(not literally, but roughly keeping the meaning)

The more I read Wartstein, the more I agree with him. Not that he convinced me. Rather, his opinion agrees with my opinion.

The Lock liner is also convenient for me. I thought about it for a long time. My first Spyderco knife was with a backlock. It was very difficult to fold it with one hand. It is almost impossible to do this. Then I bought a second Spyderco knife, then a third, and so on. And these knives were with a lock liner lock. It was very convenient to fold with one hand. When about 60 Spyderco knives passed through my hands, only then I got my first knife with complock.
And then I said to myself: "This is inconvenient." But I was wrong. It was "unusual".

And there is no better or worse.
Any lock Matter