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[potahto]

New to the forum. Greetings from Sugarloaf, CA!

Misplacing my 8 year old RSK MK1 brought be back to the market. Having owned an Endura (and having it swiped) some 20 years ago, the first place I came was Spyderco :] On with the gripes...

- Why not replace COMING SOON and OUT OF STOCK with PREORDER? Either the item is discontinued or not, right? Where does SOLD OUT status fit?

- Why, when searching, do we get a page of models but no OUT OF STOCK or SOLD OUT banner? ( but COMING SOON does show)

- Why, when searching, do we get a page of models that is incomplete? Take C41PYL5 (Native 5 Plain) for instance. It's not archived so Is it discontinued errr what?

And one for the suggestion box:

- Can OpFocus members have a 48 hour PREORDER (limit 2) window on SFO so they can get the full benefit of the program, and, you know, focus on their op and not on trying to beat the thirsty hoards? (No offense, I find great info in every thread)

Thank you for listening. I stare at this gorgeous Sun and Moon every day :) Thanks Spyderco!

[sal]

Hi Potahto,

Thanx for your service.

It's just slow at rolling out. There's more.

sal

[potahto]

Thanks, Sal!

[ugaarguy]

Hi, I'll try to answer your questions as a Spyderco fan and fellow OpFocus member who's picked up a few things along the way participating here.

So far, Spyderco doesn't do pre-orders so I guess that's why there's no pre-order banner, since that isn't an option.

I do get the "out of stock banner" when I look at the list of locking folding knives on the SFO webpage.

The Page of models isn't incomplete. They only show a picture of the Native 5 Salt SE. When both variants are in stock, you click on the pictured SE model and you get a drop down menu to pick SE or PE. Apparently it's a weird glitch that you can't select between variants when both are sold out.

The thirsty hoards are probably pre-ordering from dealers at MAP, rather than buying direct from Spyderco at full MSRP. I can't imagine why anyone would buy from the SFO at full MSRP. Getting the OpFocus discount is the only reason I buy direct from Spyderco. I think that pre-orders would just have SFO members competing against each other. I've noticed that there are small quantities at the SFO when new models are released. This makes sense to me, since Spyderco needs to fill dealer orders first.

Regular production models are usually easy to get after the first run, as long as Spyderco isn't between runs in the production queue. Sometimes we can't get sprints. Spyderco doesn't owe us access to Sprints, nor do they owe us the OpFocus program at all. I'm thankful they offer it to us. If your mission is so specific that you need a Z-Wear Shaman and can't accomplish the mission with a regular S30V Shaman, I'd suggest that you contact Spyderco government sales at the phone number or email listed at the bottom of the OpFocus web page to discuss this directly with Spyderco.

[potahto]

@ugaarguy When -searching- for an item. The full locking folders page does show banners but a search only shows COMING SOON banners.

IMO, for new releases, dealers should be fulfilled last (or be very limited - as a taste test), or for reasons of delivery limitations, etc. For the most part, CS, KW, BHQ, etc. are absolutely not competitive as they all have the same prices. Spyderco.com can use the same formula and sell directly at that price or even a smidge higher. There is no rule that manufacturers have to sell at their own MSRP. This is not to eliminate the other distros, but to have more control over supply and demand measurements. When the charts show the excitement tapering down, then offload more to the distros. Customers who know Spyderco will come to Spyderco.

Today, 2/3, a user posted that he held the Shaman Z but didn't buy it. If missing a potential sale is not simply for the love of Golden, then it's just a weird business logic in the times of instantaneous internet commerce.

[ugaarguy]

@ugaarguy When -searching- for an item. The full locking folders page does show banners but a search only shows COMING SOON banners.

That's a weird glitch. Maybe they'll a way to fix it.

IMO, for new releases, dealers should be fulfilled last (or be very limited - as a taste test), or for reasons of delivery limitations, etc. For the most part, CS, KW, BHQ, etc. are absolutely not competitive as they all have the same prices. Spyderco.com can use the same formula and sell directly at that price or even a smidge higher. There is no rule that manufacturers have to sell at their own MSRP. This is not to eliminate the other distros, but to have more control over supply and demand measurements. When the charts show the excitement tapering down, then offload more to the distros. Customers who know Spyderco will come to Spyderco.

Dealers show the same prices because Spyderco has a minimum advertised price (MAP) model, which allows smaller, local dealers and upstarts with a web presence to sell at the same price as big, established dealers like CS, BHQ, etc. This encourages dealers to stock knives so customers can handle them before buying, and supports these small family owned businesses. If Spyderco sold direct at MAP or slightly over, dealers would have no incentive to stock Spyderco knives. That would turn Spyderco into a direct to consumer knife maker. That would kill off all the dealer and distributor exclusives. Whether it would increase or decrease overall sales doesn't matter. It's not Spyderco's business model. Spyderco is still family owned, and started as a tiny business with Sal and Gail being homeless and living out of a bread van that had been converted to a camper. Sal has posted many times on this forum that Spyderco grew with dealers like KC that started small, and they intend to keep supporting small businesses. Sal and Eric have also done low volume projects like the Shirley-Owens ARK because they wanted to fill a niche need for deployed service members. They've found a way to balance making profits with their own values and ethics. I think you need to look at the bigger picture.

Today, 2/3, a user posted that he held the Shaman Z but didn't buy it. If missing a potential sale is not simply for the love of Golden, then it's just a weird business logic in the times of instantaneous internet commerce.

Was it for sale? How many were available? Or did Spyderco have one or two on hand at the physical SFO that were early production that they let people handle? Maybe Spyderco has learned that missing one or two direct to consumer sales in exchange for gaining a plethora or dealer orders is a more profitable model?

[potahto]

@ugaarguy It's easy math. Let's say there are 1000 Shaman Z produced:

500 to distros
500 in warehouse/SFO

Distros can sell at MAP until they run out. Warehouse/SFO might have a higher tag, and in turn have slower sales, BUT that only lasts until the distros run out. Then customers will come to SFO looking to get what they need. This way customers don't suffer from FOMO (except for being late getting MAP from distros), SFO isn't littered with OUT OF STOCK and SOLD OUT bad news, and the small businesses will have made their margins. Everyone happy.

As for PREORDERS, that should come directly from the warehouse while distros are waiting for their fulfillment. If individual buyers are willing to take the hit above MAP, let them. The alternative is them clamoring for MAP and their distro's preorder list. No loyalists lost on SFO nor distros. Everyone happy.

I don't know if Spyderco makes a proposed exclusive and a distro slaps their name on it or what but they are a separate beast wholly risked by the distro. Exclusives vaporize and Spyderco is still on top. Even without exclusives, you and I are happy, no?!

And lastly, the handled Z; It was apparently for sale at the outlet. The customer picked it up, passed on it, and it was put back under the glass. Now, in 2021, as soon as he handed it back, an order could have come in, the sale made and shipped within the hour. Shoot, what else is sitting under the glass but not updated on the site? That could all be flying off the shelves through online orders right-spydieflippin-now! Sales happy, customers happy.

You knocked MSRP earlier too. Is Sal's art not worth his asking? No one gets gouged in the above scenarios. Spyderco doesn't lose fans in the above scenarios. Distros sell a plethora of knives anyway, they don't lose customers in the above scenarios. Everyone is satisfied in the above scenarios.

[TazKristi]

@ugaarguy It's easy math. Let's say there are 1000 Shaman Z produced:

500 to distros
500 in warehouse/SFO

Distros can sell at MAP until they run out. Warehouse/SFO might have a higher tag, and in turn have slower sales, BUT that only lasts until the distros run out. Then customers will come to SFO looking to get what they need. This way customers don't suffer from FOMO (except for being late getting MAP from distros), SFO isn't littered with OUT OF STOCK and SOLD OUT bad news, and the small businesses will have made their margins. Everyone happy.

As for PREORDERS, that should come directly from the warehouse while distros are waiting for their fulfillment. If individual buyers are willing to take the hit above MAP, let them. The alternative is them clamoring for MAP and their distro's preorder list. No loyalists lost on SFO nor distros. Everyone happy.

I don't know if Spyderco makes a proposed exclusive and a distro slaps their name on it or what but they are a separate beast wholly risked by the distro. Exclusives vaporize and Spyderco is still on top. Even without exclusives, you and I are happy, no?!

And lastly, the handled Z; It was apparently for sale at the outlet. The customer picked it up, passed on it, and it was put back under the glass. Now, in 2021, as soon as he handed it back, an order could have come in, the sale made and shipped within the hour. Shoot, what else is sitting under the glass but not updated on the site? That could all be flying off the shelves through online orders right-spydieflippin-now! Sales happy, customers happy.

You knocked MSRP earlier too. Is Sal's art not worth his asking? No one gets gouged in the above scenarios. Spyderco doesn't lose fans in the above scenarios. Distros sell a plethora of knives anyway, they don't lose customers in the above scenarios. Everyone is satisfied in the above scenarios.

Hi, potahto:
Welcome to our forum. There is a wealth of information here about our business model and why we do what we do. We appreciate your feedback as a new customer, and we do take your comments to heart. I think over time, you'll begin to understand how we do business. It's not the usual way, nor is it simple. I would recommend reading up a little more on our history for a better understanding of our choices.

Spyderco has a strong company ethos. What we do isn't all about the bottom-line. We understand that everyone in the chain of business (vendors, Spyderco, Distributors, and Dealers) works for the consumer - you. But we also understand that 45 years ago, it was our dealers who took a chance and offered Spyderco to their customers. Knives can be a very personal item. Knives are something that most knuts like to handle before they purchase. Our Dealers give our customers that opportunity world-wide. We not only recognize that our dealers helped build Spyderco into what we are today, but we also choose to honor that by not competing with them.

We make a conscious choice to not accept Pre-Orders. Each business is different, but for us, we choose not to take any money until something actually ships.

Exclusives are a collaboration of sorts. Yes, we build the products, but there is a great deal of thought and discussion between the dealer (or distributor) and Spyderco about what the final product is and what materials are used. Exclusives are a big commitment for the dealer (or distributor). It's an actual contracted process and a large financial commitment. We also see those as a partnership, so it's not as if an exclusive ships to the dealer and we abandon all thought of it.

MSRP is not something we ask for based on Sal's creativity, or the loyalty our customers show us. It's a hard number that comes from all of the costs that go into bringing a product to market. We work off of very narrow margins - we always have. We don't believe in pricing what we think the market will bear.

As to the banners on the site. Yep, there's more "Sold Out" banners than we (or you) would like. Could we hold products back from dealers and distributors to make inventory last longer on our site? Sure. But we would never do that - refer to my second paragraph above. The last year has brought about numerous delays - most are outside of anyone's control. We, as a manufacturer, aren't alone in this challenge. By and large, though, most customers know these are not normal times - for anyone. We are doing everything that we can (as is everyone in the production chain) to get products back in inventory as quickly as possible.

The "Sold Out" banner applies to limited productions like our Sprint Runs. You'll notice the Shaman Z-Wear PM Sprint Run currently states "Out of Stock." That's because there are more to come. The initial inventory that was made available was from our Premier program (SFO is enrolled in that program, just like our Dealers and they don't receive any more than anyone else). As the remaining inventory begins shipping, SFO will add more to the site. Once the inventory is exhausted and SFO knows they aren't going to receive anything more, the status will shift to "Sold Out." This designation also indicates to our customers that the knife, although no longer available from us, may still be available through one of our Dealers. Once it's sold out everywhere, its status will change to "Discontinued."

Again, welcome to our forum. We hope you enjoy your time with us and continue to learn about our company and our products.

Kristi

[JRinFL]

Wow, I cannot think of another company that would give such a thorough answer such as Kristi just gave above. Outstanding. :spyder:

[Explorador]

Transparency is a rare jewel nowadays, even more rare in the business world.

Kristi, your answer impressed me very much.

The more I learn about Spyderco and the people who work there, the more I love it.

Respect!!!

Marcelo

[potahto]

"We make a conscious choice to not accept Pre-Orders. Each business is different, but for us, we choose not to take any money until something actually ships."

Spyderco doesn't have to finalize the charge then but also knows when Mule Team SPY27 is coming and that it can ship 2/12. Preorder, lottery, reserve list - all fair(er) to the individual buyers than a mad scramble for 10am MST, no?

Should Spyderco make another MT run? -Answered by the above methods.
What steel should they be made in? -Answered by the above methods.
How many should be produced? -Answered by the above methods.
Will Spyderco end up with a glut of New Old Stock? -NO. Answered by the above methods.
What should Spyderco produce next? -Answered by the above methods.
and on and on...

I develop inventory and queueing systems where the specific objective is streamlining for efficiency. This is really the only way to get to that while simultaneously satisfying the majority of the customer base. Even changing Out Of Stock to an expected arrival date is an upgrade.

[ugaarguy]

Have you considered that starting off what you do as your profession, and asking if you could offer some suggestions might have been better received than your first posts?

[potahto]

I understand the urge to gain feely points by defending the moderators but logic is logic. Do you see an inefficiency in my proposals, however informal?

[ugaarguy]

I understand the urge to gain feely points by defending the moderators but logic is logic. Do you see an inefficiency in my proposals, however informal?

No, I see you as one of the people who come to into this forum every month or so who rant and tell Spyderco how to run their business. I've been there myself with issues I had with some Spyderco knives several years ago. I'm not defending the moderators. I'm sharing what I've learned after I shut up and started to listening to how much Sal actually shares here about how he and Eric run the company, and his personal and business ethics. You walked in the door as an FNG and started off by telling them that you know better how to run the business than they do. I tried to answer your questions as a fellow veteran, but you've been dismissive of my attempts to help. You're not worth my time with attempting to engage with any further.

[VooDooChild]

First.
Spyderco has been at production capacity for some years now. If they took the time to make a mule for everyone who said they wanted one, then they would fall behind on other stuff. Which people would complain about.

Second.
Mules have to be small runs. Have you noticed how cheap the mules are??? Spyderco doesnt make money off mule runs, they are sold at cost. The more you ask them to produce, the more money you are asking them to lose just to make people happy.

Third.
In the past not all mules have been too hard to get. Yes some sell out fast, but some are easy to order.

Im not against the idea of a lottery or preorder or whatever. But at the production numbers spyderco has to do for mules, somewhere someone is always going to miss out.

[potahto]

@ugaarguy - Start a new topic on what you love about the SFO site.

Anticipation threads here are more like anxiety when they should be joyous excitement. Look at how the Z-Wear Shaman thread devolved.

With accurate metrics, even the Forum Knife Wishlist can become tangible reality with a simple poll. (Pssst! Click New Topic and go all the way down to Poll Creation.)

@VooDooChild - Sure, that's logical. What's the markup on each MT? 2x? 10x? Who knows and I don't care about that. BUT say it was [Spyderco's margin] and 1500 were reserved... 3000, etc....

Efficient metrics gained from preorder/lottery/reserve will absolutely reveal how big the run should be without guessing (risk). Inventory control becomes super efficient - even during a pandemic.

With those numbers, production can be slowed on a less in-demand model and ramped for whatever the people are directly saying they want. Elementary accounting. Endura is eternally available on SFO but no PM2. Should Spyderco maintain production numbers for the Endura knowing this?

This thread was started with everything on the catalog in mind. The Mule is just a prime example of how even the most loyal customers might miss out for not waking up early enough. Imagine if it was the PM2 Cru :rolleyes:

[VooDooChild]

...
@VooDooChild - Sure, that's logical. What's the markup on each MT? 2x? 10x? Who knows and I don't care about that...

I think youre missing the point man. There is NO markup. They wouldnt have cancelled it to begin with if it paid the bills. They are losing money and you are asking them to lose even more to satisfy theoretical customers.

We should be more than happy that the mule team program exist at all. Especially considering nobody else does it.

I do however really like the idea of a lottery amongst people who signed up for a drawing, or something like that.

[potahto]

No markup? You sure about that? I'm also talking about everything, not just Mule Team.

Okay, so the lottery is not to win something free. It's to get a gauge on how many want in and only adds their name to the upcoming stock replenishment (or the next).

If 600 are slated for production and 600 join the lottery - ~600 units are going to be sold. [Note: This is a risky, inefficient way of doing things and should be reversed.] No theoretical customers. If 1800 join - Spyderco knows it needs three waves of 600. With most at the very least knowing their wave is coming, a customer will wait patiently for the expected arrival date. That's in the context of maxing each wave.

Now let's say they want to know who's up for a VG-10 and they get 100 joining. That might not cut it so scrub and move up to S30V or whatever. Gather the numbers again, lather, rinse, repeat. Easy. With the exception of cancellations, which will be minimal considering the nature of Spyderbros, the excess is reduced to nearly zero. Super efficient.

Now, I know someone wants to b-but whatabout the dealers. That's their risk. They buy what they think they can sell. Even then, Spyderco should get the request first then start production. That's it.

[Rinzler]

There’s a fatal flaw to potato’s wisdom. If the problem right now is an overload of the system when product goes on sale, why wouldn’t the same occur when a lottery/reservation/whatever opens up?

I’m just not feeling it. Maybe this works great for speakers, jeans, or cookware; but I’m not seeing any better efficacy for limited and low production sprints.

[VooDooChild]

Theres obviously a markup on everything else.

I was just pointing out that the mules are the exception. Spyderco produces them at cost and are able to gain input on new and possibly future steels.

As far as demand for other items go, Im sure there are other ways to go about releasing them, but its not our call.

But not for the mules. Theres only so much time spyderco is willing to put into a mule team run before needing to go back to regular production. Since any mule team run is always going to have low numbers, if the demand is high, then theres really no good way to allocate them. A preorder would be the same mad dash as the knife going live. A lottery would be unfair as well. Like I said with the mules, someone somewhere is going to misout if the demand is there.

If anything the mule team program is a gift to the knife community that spyderco chooses to do.

On other items I get what youte talking about. In fact the idea of having a a day or two, where any number of people could sign up for a sprint has been floated around before. It would also, hopefully, hurt the flippers. It just seems theres more going on behind the curtain, because that idea hasnt gained much traction.