Sharpening a Knife

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Albatross
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby Albatross » Sat May 23, 2020 7:40 am

FeistyKat wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:15 am
Albatross wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 2:31 am
FeistyKat wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 2:27 am
Albatross wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 2:25 am
Big Brown Bear

Thanks, I never would have figured that out...
No problem. He's been an active member here for a while, a custom knife maker, makes YouTube videos, and is quite knowledgeable about steels and heat treatments.

https://www.youtube.com/user/shawnhouston

OK, I'm still not finding a website. I'm guessing he has an on-line shop?
I think he does everything through social media.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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sal
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby sal » Sat May 23, 2020 9:31 am


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ThomC
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby ThomC » Sat May 23, 2020 9:34 am

sal wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 9:31 am
[www.triplebhandmade.com]

sal
Only Sal can shill with such nonchalance
European amateur knife enthusiast
Hikes and outdoors galore

In the knoife box :Millie, Rex 45 Shaman, SE PM1, wharnie SE Endura 4, ESEE 6HM, TOPS Tanimboca, TOPS C.A.T 203, Rat 1 D2
In the future : Tool steel/CE/SE Millie, Native 5, Rex 45 Native Chief, K2, Slysz Bowie, K390 Police 4

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p_atrick
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby p_atrick » Sat May 23, 2020 9:49 am

FeistyKat wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 3:15 am
OK, I'm still not finding a website. I'm guessing he has an on-line shop?
https://www.triplebhandmade.com/shop

JohnDoe99
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby JohnDoe99 » Sat May 23, 2020 8:02 pm

Albatross wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 4:16 pm

Some people are skilled enough, to get a knife to whittle hair, with just a single stone. No strops needed. Technique is much more important than an arsenal of sharpening gear.
I can get an edge shaving hair easily, but I have never been able to whittle a hair. I have never been able to find an exact explanation of how it is done on the internet. What exactly is the "technique?"

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bbturbodad
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby bbturbodad » Sat May 23, 2020 8:36 pm

JohnDoe99 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:02 pm
Albatross wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 4:16 pm

Some people are skilled enough, to get a knife to whittle hair, with just a single stone. No strops needed. Technique is much more important than an arsenal of sharpening gear.
I can get an edge shaving hair easily, but I have never been able to whittle a hair. I have never been able to find an exact explanation of how it is done on the internet. What exactly is the "technique?"
I don't think there's anything special in particular to technique other than making sure you have the basics down. Make sure you've apexed the edge and then use light alternating strokes to knock the burr off. If you're having trouble with a stubborn burr pulling the blade through a piece of cork or edge of balsa wood will usually get it. Stropping on a 1 or .25 micron strop takes it to the next level.

Image
Image
Image
-Turbo

JohnDoe99
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby JohnDoe99 » Sat May 23, 2020 8:45 pm

bbturbodad wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:36 pm
JohnDoe99 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:02 pm
Albatross wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 4:16 pm

Some people are skilled enough, to get a knife to whittle hair, with just a single stone. No strops needed. Technique is much more important than an arsenal of sharpening gear.
I can get an edge shaving hair easily, but I have never been able to whittle a hair. I have never been able to find an exact explanation of how it is done on the internet. What exactly is the "technique?"
I don't think there's anything special in particular to technique other than making sure you have the basics down. Make sure you've apexed the edge and then use light alternating strokes to knock the burr off. If you're having trouble with a stubborn burr pulling the blade through a piece of cork or edge of balsa wood will usually get it. Stropping on a 1 or .25 micron strop takes it to the next level.
Thank you for the reply. I have 3 questions:

1) What do you mean by "make sure you've apexed the edge?"

2) What do you recommend to strop on? I have some vegetable leather, without compound.

3) What type of compound do you recommend?

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bbturbodad
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby bbturbodad » Sat May 23, 2020 9:06 pm

JohnDoe99 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:45 pm
bbturbodad wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:36 pm
JohnDoe99 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:02 pm
Albatross wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 4:16 pm

Some people are skilled enough, to get a knife to whittle hair, with just a single stone. No strops needed. Technique is much more important than an arsenal of sharpening gear.
I can get an edge shaving hair easily, but I have never been able to whittle a hair. I have never been able to find an exact explanation of how it is done on the internet. What exactly is the "technique?"
I don't think there's anything special in particular to technique other than making sure you have the basics down. Make sure you've apexed the edge and then use light alternating strokes to knock the burr off. If you're having trouble with a stubborn burr pulling the blade through a piece of cork or edge of balsa wood will usually get it. Stropping on a 1 or .25 micron strop takes it to the next level.
Thank you for the reply. I have 3 questions:

1) What do you mean by "make sure you've apexed the edge?"

Make sure both sides of the bevel meet at the edge (apex). A loupe can be helpful to confirm you've got it evenly sharpened along the entire length of the blade. The tip and heel are usually the toughest parts.


2) What do you recommend to strop on? I have some vegetable leather, without compound.

I like stropping on basswood. It easier to keep the edge crisp, if you use too much pressure on leather you can roll the edge and end up dulling the edge. Don't overdo the stropping a few passes should be all that's needed. I usually do 2 or 3 max.


3) What type of compound do you recommend?

I like CBN or diamond emulsions because they work with all steel types. If you're not sharpening "super steels" pretty much anything is fine.
-Turbo

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Wartstein
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby Wartstein » Sat May 23, 2020 11:18 pm

JohnDoe99 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:45 pm
bbturbodad wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:36 pm
JohnDoe99 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:02 pm
Albatross wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 4:16 pm
Thank you for the reply. I have 3 questions:

1) What do you mean by "make sure you've apexed the edge?"


2) What do you recommend to strop on? I have some vegetable leather, without compound.

3) What type of compound do you recommend?

Turbo already replied better than I could, I just wanted to emphasize once more:

A loupe really helps (10 x magnification is enough for me) and for me loupe AND lsharpie works best. Many (like Sal) seem to use just a loupe, but being still not really good at sharpening for me the use of a sharpie helps. As Turbo pointed out already: Especially on the heel of the blade it is rather common to not hit the apex properly, loupe and sharpie made it a lot easier to realize that for me.

I think later one and with more experience one will be able to see if and how the edge is hit by the stone without a Sharpie, but just a loupe. But I am not quite there yet I guess,
Top three going by pocket-time: Endura 4 in VG 10/Micarta-scales; Stretch 1 in VG 10; Endura 4 in HAP 40

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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby JohnDoe99 » Sat May 23, 2020 11:55 pm

Wartstein wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:18 pm
JohnDoe99 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:45 pm
bbturbodad wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:36 pm
JohnDoe99 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:02 pm

Thank you for the reply. I have 3 questions:

1) What do you mean by "make sure you've apexed the edge?"


2) What do you recommend to strop on? I have some vegetable leather, without compound.

3) What type of compound do you recommend?

Turbo already replied better than I could, I just wanted to emphasize once more:

A loupe really helps (10 x magnification is enough for me) and for me loupe AND lsharpie works best. Many (like Sal) seem to use just a loupe, but being still not really good at sharpening for me the use of a sharpie helps. As Turbo pointed out already: Especially on the heel of the blade it is rather common to not hit the apex properly, loupe and sharpie made it a lot easier to realize that for me.

I think later one and with more experience one will be able to see if and how the edge is hit by the stone without a Sharpie, but just a loupe. But I am not quite there yet I guess,
I have a Carson microscope with 120x magnification. The microscope is showing no burr and there is an apex. Again, I can get s110v to shave very well and have good edge retention on that level, but the whittling just does not happen. I refuse to step down from s110v simply because I don't like quitting.

I tried stropping again this afternoon with leather and some Woodstock green stropping compound, after doing a complete resharpening with some DMT plates and ceramic rods. Horrible performance, the edge rounds off readily on the leather. That is probably because of the leather itself, but also because I think this compound does not cut very well, or at least does not cut S110V very well, so I try to compensate for the compound's failure by riding the edge as flush as I can, and then the leather buckles and rounds it off. I am going to buy some Basswood and DMT paste.

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Albatross
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby Albatross » Sun May 24, 2020 12:02 am

JohnDoe99 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:02 pm
Albatross wrote:
Fri May 15, 2020 4:16 pm

Some people are skilled enough, to get a knife to whittle hair, with just a single stone. No strops needed. Technique is much more important than an arsenal of sharpening gear.
I can get an edge shaving hair easily, but I have never been able to whittle a hair. I have never been able to find an exact explanation of how it is done on the internet. What exactly is the "technique?"
bbturbodad has given you some good info for sure.

I keep an old phonebook around, to test the sharpness from my first stone. If any part of the edge can't easily slice phonebook paper, against the grain, I'm not ready to move on to the next stone. It's beneficial to form the smallest burr possible, across the entire edge, on one side, then the other. Light pressure is important and the paper test tells me if I'm using too much pressure, or not enough. Too much and the cuts are ragged or begin to rip the paper. Too little and the burr is still mostly there, giving the same ragged cuts or ripping of the paper. Removing as much of the burr as possible, on each stone, is a good habit to get into.

The higher the grit of the finishing stone, the closer the edge will be to whittling a hair. If it's going to happen, the apex has to be very thin and clean. Each step is going to clean up your edge more than the last. If you get a clean edge off the first stone, and continue with higher grits, you're lessening the deep scratches at the apex, bringing out a crispness that will help cut into a hair.

As far as strops, I use 1, .5, .25 micron strops. I've always used leather and had great results, but the firmness and texture of the leather, plays a big role in the end results. My favorites are the Kangaroo leather KME strops. I use them freehand, because they give me a ton of control vs a larger strop. My 3x10 strop is still used and loved though. The KME strops are very smooth and soft, giving me some of the best edges I've ever had. It does take more practice and patience than wood, but to me, stropping on leather is even more enjoyable than the sharpening itself.
sal wrote:
Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:01 pm

...But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of "deigning in the dark"...

sal

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bbturbodad
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby bbturbodad » Sun May 24, 2020 7:06 pm

JohnDoe99 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:55 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:18 pm
JohnDoe99 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:45 pm
bbturbodad wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:36 pm

Thank you for the reply. I have 3 questions:

1) What do you mean by "make sure you've apexed the edge?"


2) What do you recommend to strop on? I have some vegetable leather, without compound.

3) What type of compound do you recommend?

Turbo already replied better than I could, I just wanted to emphasize once more:

A loupe really helps (10 x magnification is enough for me) and for me loupe AND lsharpie works best. Many (like Sal) seem to use just a loupe, but being still not really good at sharpening for me the use of a sharpie helps. As Turbo pointed out already: Especially on the heel of the blade it is rather common to not hit the apex properly, loupe and sharpie made it a lot easier to realize that for me.

I think later one and with more experience one will be able to see if and how the edge is hit by the stone without a Sharpie, but just a loupe. But I am not quite there yet I guess,
I have a Carson microscope with 120x magnification. The microscope is showing no burr and there is an apex. Again, I can get s110v to shave very well and have good edge retention on that level, but the whittling just does not happen. I refuse to step down from s110v simply because I don't like quitting.

I tried stropping again this afternoon with leather and some Woodstock green stropping compound, after doing a complete resharpening with some DMT plates and ceramic rods. Horrible performance, the edge rounds off readily on the leather. That is probably because of the leather itself, but also because I think this compound does not cut very well, or at least does not cut S110V very well, so I try to compensate for the compound's failure by riding the edge as flush as I can, and then the leather buckles and rounds it off. I am going to buy some Basswood and DMT paste.
Ah didn't realize you were working with S110V. Yes I'd definitely recommend CBN or diamond compound. I personally like the Ken Schwartz CBN emulsions.

With a steel like S110V I would try skipping the ceramic and see if you get a better edge straight off the diamonds. I don't have any experience with DMT plates but I can get pretty much any steel hair whittling sharp off Venev 400 grit diamond stones so if you have something similarly fine (or finer) in a DMT plate give it a shot and see if coming straight off the diamonds gives you a better edge. The ceramic stone may be just burnishing and weakening the edge with a high Vanadium steel like S110V.

One last thing...

What color is your hair? Blonde hair is usually tougher to whittle than darker hair. Having thin blonde hair has made me a better sharpener. ;)
-Turbo

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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby ikaretababy » Sun May 24, 2020 8:50 pm

I've heard red hair is the hardest to whittle. Wonder if that's true

JohnDoe99
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby JohnDoe99 » Thu May 28, 2020 7:48 pm

bbturbodad wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:06 pm
JohnDoe99 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:55 pm
Wartstein wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 11:18 pm
JohnDoe99 wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 8:45 pm


Thank you for the reply. I have 3 questions:

1) What do you mean by "make sure you've apexed the edge?"


2) What do you recommend to strop on? I have some vegetable leather, without compound.

3) What type of compound do you recommend?

Turbo already replied better than I could, I just wanted to emphasize once more:

A loupe really helps (10 x magnification is enough for me) and for me loupe AND lsharpie works best. Many (like Sal) seem to use just a loupe, but being still not really good at sharpening for me the use of a sharpie helps. As Turbo pointed out already: Especially on the heel of the blade it is rather common to not hit the apex properly, loupe and sharpie made it a lot easier to realize that for me.

I think later one and with more experience one will be able to see if and how the edge is hit by the stone without a Sharpie, but just a loupe. But I am not quite there yet I guess,
I have a Carson microscope with 120x magnification. The microscope is showing no burr and there is an apex. Again, I can get s110v to shave very well and have good edge retention on that level, but the whittling just does not happen. I refuse to step down from s110v simply because I don't like quitting.

I tried stropping again this afternoon with leather and some Woodstock green stropping compound, after doing a complete resharpening with some DMT plates and ceramic rods. Horrible performance, the edge rounds off readily on the leather. That is probably because of the leather itself, but also because I think this compound does not cut very well, or at least does not cut S110V very well, so I try to compensate for the compound's failure by riding the edge as flush as I can, and then the leather buckles and rounds it off. I am going to buy some Basswood and DMT paste.
Ah didn't realize you were working with S110V. Yes I'd definitely recommend CBN or diamond compound. I personally like the Ken Schwartz CBN emulsions.

With a steel like S110V I would try skipping the ceramic and see if you get a better edge straight off the diamonds. I don't have any experience with DMT plates but I can get pretty much any steel hair whittling sharp off Venev 400 grit diamond stones so if you have something similarly fine (or finer) in a DMT plate give it a shot and see if coming straight off the diamonds gives you a better edge. The ceramic stone may be just burnishing and weakening the edge with a high Vanadium steel like S110V.

One last thing...

What color is your hair? Blonde hair is usually tougher to whittle than darker hair. Having thin blonde hair has made me a better sharpener. ;)
Black. I've ditched the India and ceramics for my old diamond dmt plates. They cut so much faster. I think the factory edge on my s110v native is burnt, as I am getting less chipping as I remove more of that steel. For awhile the edge was chipping right off the diamond with hardly any pressure, and then collapsing with major deformation when cutting paper.

Another sharpening question though. Why do so many guys sharpen with the burr method? They hit one side of the edge heavily to push a burr out and then alternate. I've only ever used alternating passes only.

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sal
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby sal » Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm

I've said this before. "The edge is a ghost". It's been around for 40,000 years and still we study it. It's technically a wedge, the "W" must be silent. Bringing two bevels together is the beginning. Then we study materials that can support as thin an edge as possible at the apex, Then we study abrasives that can bring those two bevels to as fine an edge as the materials can handle. Time and practice takes you up through the grades and one day you are a graduate "edge Junky". In English, that means nuts.

This is a good place to learn.

sal

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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby The Meat man » Thu May 28, 2020 8:17 pm

bbturbodad wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:06 pm
...Blonde hair is usually tougher to whittle than darker hair...
ikaretababy wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 8:50 pm
I've heard red hair is the hardest to whittle. Wonder if that's true
JohnDoe99 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:48 pm

Black...
Only in a place like this do you get earnest discussions on which color hair is easiest to whittle. :D

We are so nuts and I love it. :cool: :D
- Connor

"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"

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bbturbodad
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby bbturbodad » Thu May 28, 2020 9:45 pm

JohnDoe99 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:48 pm
Another sharpening question though. Why do so many guys sharpen with the burr method? They hit one side of the edge heavily to push a burr out and then alternate. I've only ever used alternating passes only.
It's fast and you know you've sharpened all the way to the apex when you raise a burr. The smaller the burr the better.
-Turbo

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bbturbodad
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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby bbturbodad » Thu May 28, 2020 9:54 pm

The Meat man wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:17 pm
bbturbodad wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:06 pm
...Blonde hair is usually tougher to whittle than darker hair...
ikaretababy wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 8:50 pm
I've heard red hair is the hardest to whittle. Wonder if that's true
JohnDoe99 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:48 pm

Black...
Only in a place like this do you get earnest discussions on which color hair is easiest to whittle. :D

We are so nuts and I love it. :cool: :D
Right! I never thought about it until chatting with a knife maker who mentioned that he had thin blonde hair and told me the knife he was sending me would have an edge that whittles his hair and guaranteed it would whittle mine too. Apparently my hair was thinner than his :p
-Turbo

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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby JohnDoe99 » Sat May 30, 2020 4:25 pm

Well I thought I had S110V figured out, but I was wrong. This is an extremely frustrating steel. Low sharpness and poor edge retention all around, dmt and ceramic. I have tried the burr method on both abrasives, and I hit the apex. Then, I back off the pressure to almost no pressure and do alternating passes to minimize the burr, and then do slightly elevated passes to remove it. There does not appear at this point to be a burr under the microscope, at least nowhere even close to what it was when I looked at the edge after having deliberately raised a burr. If I look directly at the apex under 120x magnification, I can see some light reflecting off the apex. I know that doing the light test with the naked eye is useful for revealing obvious damage to the edge. If it is still reflecting light at 120x, does that mean it is not yet fully apexed? How could that be after I already raised a burr on each side and cut it off?

At this point the knife shaves hair well, I am actually running out of hair on my arms and thighs from trying to get this s110v to whittle hair because of all the resharpening process of elimination tests I am doing. So, I then slice up 1 large mailing envelope, since that is what I have lying around, and then cut twice directly into some treated lumber. The blade has now lost a noticeable amount of its shaving ability, shaving requires some degree of pressure, and if I look at the edge under magnification, I can see what looks like chips on the apex larger than the abrasive's scratch marks. This is happening every time, regardless of what I do. I honestly have no idea what is going on.

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Re: Sharpening a Knife

Postby BobABQ » Sat May 30, 2020 5:54 pm

The Meat man wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:17 pm
bbturbodad wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:06 pm
...Blonde hair is usually tougher to whittle than darker hair...
ikaretababy wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 8:50 pm
I've heard red hair is the hardest to whittle. Wonder if that's true
JohnDoe99 wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 7:48 pm

Black...
Only in a place like this do you get earnest discussions on which color hair is easiest to whittle. :D

We are so nuts and I love it. :cool: :D
That is what makes this place special. :D


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