Suggestion for changing Spyderco budget knife steel 8Cr13Mov

[araneae]

8Cr13 suffers from the commonness effect that also plagues s30v. It's used a lot, so people decide its boring or even bad. Should Spyderco move to Sandvik 14C28N because some internet reviewer says its better? Probably not, that's no reason to make a switch. I'd wager that some of the most popular reviewers do more "reviewing" than actual using. I used 8Cr13 for years cutting boxes as I stocked shelves, yeah, it needs to be touched up after serious use, but it's easy to get back to shaving sharp.

D2 is a hot steel in import knives right now, despite the fact that the budget market is full of falsely marked knives. Testers have found that some knives marked D2 are actually 8Cr13 or some other steel, but if you read Amazon reviews, there are people proclaiming that its real D2 and its great. I wouldn't move to a different steel just because some internet reviewers seem to be against 8Cr13.

Changing steel for the previously mentioned Alcyone/Polestar raised the price considerably and didn't seem to work out for Spyderco. Would making the Tenacious a $72 knife with BD1 or 14C28N be a good decision? Probably not, that takes the knife out of what most people consider budget territory. $15 more and you've got an Endura. Would I pay almost $50 for a Cara Cara 2 with 14C28N? I don't think so. If Spyderco could move to a steel like 9Cr18 or Chinese D2 and only raise the price marginally, that might make sense. Upgrading steel should be done because it makes sense, not because it's caving in to less educated consumers and preachy YouTube reviewers.

[araneae]

Giving heat treating secrets away to a Chinese company seems to be self-defeating in the long run.

I guess I don't really understand the point of your comment. What is being "given away"? There are already knife makers and knife brands in china making knives to a high level of quality with properly treated high end steels. There is testing and data to support this. Do you think they need to have secret information given to them to accomplish this?

[Thunderpants]

Doesn't matter what steel it is, if it has the word "China" in big letters on the blade it's going to lose sexiness points.

[soc_monki]

I personally think people just see 8cr everywhere on the Chinese Kershaw knives and spydercos, and as it was said with S30v, people are sick of the name. There is absolutely nothing wrong with 8cr, it is a decent steel that sharpens easily and keeps its edge for a while and also gets VERY sharp. There are a few tests on YouTube by Pete from Cedric and Ada and Alex from outdoors55 that show that 8cr can hold its own.

I've used it and will continue to use it when I see a knife design that tickles my fancy and a knife is made in it (from a reputable manufacturer of course!) I love my tenacious line of knives, and I love my Kershaws in 8cr, heck I just bought a discontinued Injection 3.5 and am looking forward to trying it out (away from home right now!) love my zt 0801ti, and the injection is a Rexford design, should be a fun knife!

Although if Spyderco went to 9cr18mov I would rebuy a few knives probably, because I enjoy it from civivi. Takes a really sharp edge and seems to last a while.

I honestly don't think Sal and Co. can keep the prices as low as native Chinese manufacturers, which is why the polestar and alcyone are so much more than a comparable ruike or what have you. People already seem to complain about the price of a Tenacious!

Will watch and see what happens. A backlock Polestar sounds fun though! Do tell me more!

[SubMicron]

What about simply doing a sprint run of 14c28n on the Chinese budget models that typically have 8cr13mov?

If a Tenacious retails for $50 with 8cr13mov, could a 14c28n version be sold for $60?

I'd definitely buy one.

[GiftedMisfit]

I'd be in for a few.

[Notsurewhy]

Aaron,

Why would you consider 14c28n an upgrade to 8cr13MoV? There is more carbon in 8cr than 14c?

sal

I’m not Aaron, and I'm definitely not a metallurgist, but I think the nitrogen? Anecdotally, 14c28n is very stainless while I've heard many folks have corrosion issues with 8cr. Larrin's tests suggest the sandvik punches above it's weight in edge retention as well. I don't think he's done 8cr, so no direct comparison, but I think 14c cut as well as bd1n.

I think that the main issue, as others have stated, is bad perception of 8cr due to many cheap knives from other manufactures that were probably not heat treated properly. I'm sure Spyderco does it right, but not everyone is Spyderco. I don't know that the steel needs to change, but I think that's why some people have an issue with it.

[Londinium Armoury]

Part of the cost effectiveness of making a knife in China is using Chinese made steel. Like how most seki models use Japanese steel...

Shipping steel from Sweden to china for a run of grasshoppers is much different than shipping enough for tenacious, resistance....

That makes sense if the steel isn't already shipped tot he factory, I wasn't sure on the status of the steel supply in the Chinese factory, I thought they might have a bunch of it already in house because of the steel on my grasshopper.

[Londinium Armoury]

I'm pretty sure Sal has said in the past that the polestar and alcyone were designed to see if the market would support better steel on the Chinese made knives. I don't think sales have been good enough for them to expand the effort.

It might be the case they probably have all the sales projections and stats, and determined it's not worth doing. It could be the BD1 steel playing a part slightly as well though. Most people consider BD1 as a low tier steel as well. Maybe if they were released in a D2 they would have been recieved with mroe open arms.

[Londinium Armoury]

You're missing two very important points. First is that, as Gigas pointed out, steel is heavy, so shipping it gets expensive so using a steel from the country where a given model is made for Spyderco helps keep the cost down. Second being that Spyderco uses a number of makers in China, so not all the Value Line knives may be made by the same maker, and not all makers there are willing or able to work with all steels.

I understand this, I wasn't missing this point, I was running on the assumption that the steel was already there, as I own a Chinese made spyderco in Sandvik steel. So I just guessed that it's possible they still have left over bar stock there for use. If they don't it would be awkward and less convenient to keep shipping steel there, rather than buy locally. My suggestion wasn't just for switching to sandvik, it was just one suggestion, it could be switched to a locally produced D2 or similar. It would require air hardening and a different method of production though so that could cause a problem.

[Londinium Armoury]

Hi Aaron,

Welcome to our forum.

Were always looking at steels and makers. We've made some progress in Japan and China using imported steels. As Paul mentioned, using domestic steels will always be less expensive than using imported steels. And as "Notsure" mentioned, the market has not responded well to Chinese made knives that are more expensive due to the use of imported steels.

sal

Thanks for the welcome, I wasn't aware that the market didn't respond well to them, it could possibly be the BD1 choice isn't seen as much of an upgrade, or people maybe are not willing to buy pricey things from China, it's a shame. I would personally pay a little extra for a Tenacious or Resilience in a D2 steel option, but I don't represent the knife market as a whole.

Cheers

[Londinium Armoury]

I understand the interest in using a steel domestic to the factory, makes total sense. I don’t think the whole product line needs to be changed, your average consumer doesn't even look at the knife steel or even know what it means, but if they picked 3 or 4 of the most popular Chinese models and made them in an “upgraded” Chinese steel I think that would be great to satisfy the knife crowd grumbling about 8Cr13Mov. My thought would be release say the Tenacious, Resilience, Efficient and maybe the new Astute with a steel like 9Cr18Mov. They’ve already done a Mule with that steel, so we know it’s available. I am very satisfied with the steel in my experience with it in my Civivi, and I know other people that have owned and reviewed knives with that steel like it as well. Maybe change the scale color to delineate the difference between the different steels, we’ve seen that’s possible with the Tenacious and Efficient. It would be much the same model they have with the Golden knives in that the “standard” knives are black with S30V, and the models that have proved popular get S110V with blue scales, or Maxamet with grey scales etc. You would still have the less expensive base model of the Tenacious for those who are “uninitiated” or just don’t care, and you have the “upgraded” Tenacious for those who do.

This is secretly what caused me to come and start this thread. I was considering buying the Resilience, it's going for 60+ where I live, I was watching a few reviews on the knife, and realized lots of people were complaining about the steel fot he knife. Then I thought to myself, how much better of a reception this knife would get if the steel was slightly better. I would personally pay 70-80 for a Resilience in D2, what a beast that would be.

[Karl_H]

I think that if Spyderco shared more information regarding the quality control of their Chinese made knives, it would probably assuage a lot of concerns that customers have. I think people would be willing to pay more for quality assurance, rather than foreign steels.

[SubMicron]

Hi Ez556,

Aaron,

Why would you consider 14c28n an upgrade to 8cr13MoV? There is more carbon in 8cr than 14c?

sal

I also am not Aaron, obviously, however I do have a relatively strong opinion on the topic. My opinion comes almost entirely from cut test data done by the Youtubers Outpost 76, Tom Hosang Outdoors, and Super Steel Steve.

I've spot checked their data with my own tests which were conducted on the same fashion, and the results were the same.

Sharpened to 600 grit at 30 inclusive, light strop, and with 1 inch of the blade taped off, and then tested by push cutting cardboard only on that spot.

8cr13mov from Kai and Spyderco consistently achieves 80-90 feet of cardboard before it will no longer cleanly cut paper against the grain.

14c28n from Kai consistently achieves 180-190 feet cut before it will no longer cut paper against the grain.

For comparison sake, M390/20CV from most reputable production knife makers only achieves 150-230 feet cut in the same test. S30V/S35VN get even less.

Literally 14c28n competes with M390 performance when cutting through new unused cardboard.

Clean cardboard is nearly 100% cellulose and is a common media that gets cut for EDC, home, and/or work. My belief is that once sillica or other abrasives are present in what's being cut, M390 and the "upper" steels more easily shine through as being better.

With that said, if my choice were between 8cr or 14c, I'd definitely want the 14c28n due to the increased performance through every day objects.

Obviously a test like this is much different than CATRA, for many reasons. One of which is that CATRA dulls the edge completely whereas the cardboard test stops as soon as the fine edge starts snagging copy paper. This is roughly the point where light can be seen shining back from a spot on the blade.

Meanwhile, with rope cutting tests on the YouTube by Cedric & Ada... 14c28n outperforms 8cr13mov in a similar way... also tested until the knife no longer cleanly cuts paper.

From his publically available spreadsheet, here are the average cuts through Sisal rope with a wood cutting board:
S30V - 254
VG10 - 150
14c28n - 98
12c27 - 81
8cr13mov - 65

So in that test, with totally separate cut test media, the spread between 8cr13mov and 14c28n are similar to the cardboard data point with 14c28n dramatically outperforming 8cr13mov

[TomAiello]

My personal experience (in use, and subjective, and not on identical platforms) comparing Kershaw's 8cr to Kershaw's 14c is that Kershaw's 14c is far superior to their 8cr. I also find that Kershaw's 14c seems to outperform Spyderco's 8cr, but not by as wide a margin. My experience with Kershaw's 8cr has been pretty bad.

[JRinFL]

Giving heat treating secrets away to a Chinese company seems to be self-defeating in the long run.

I guess I don't really understand the point of your comment. What is being "given away"? There are already knife makers and knife brands in china making knives to a high level of quality with properly treated high end steels. There is testing and data to support this. Do you think they need to have secret information given to them to accomplish this?

From all I read and have seen with my own knives, Spyderco heat treatment is very good, better than most peer companies (domestic & overseas), so make of that what you will.

[Londinium Armoury]

Hi Ez556,

It seems that Eric has gotten the Tenacious maker to try new steels up to S90V. There is also another maker that has purchased a new heat treating oven with all of the bells and whistles so the future may offer more.

Aaron,

Why would you consider 14c28n an upgrade to 8cr13MoV? There is more carbon in 8cr than 14c?

sal

The 14c does have less carbon at around .62 which on the surface would make it seem as if it would create less hardness due to the carbides. But 14c is a nitrogen steel, and nitrogen increases the hardness by means of nitrides, which can give performance increases outside of it's carbon content. So a Nitrogen steel with .60 carbon can punch in the same weight class as a steel with much higher carbon content. 14c also has a slightly better level of corrosion resistance than 8cr. When it comes to potential HRC levels of a finished blade, 14c can be taken up to around 62 HRC while still maintaining edge stability. Where as 8Cr can only really be taken up to around 58 HRC with optimal edge stability. So we are talking quite a possible difference in edge retention. Even if you decide to make it a bit tougher and leave the 14c down at around 60 HRC it will still out perform the 8Cr at it's highest optimal hardness and stability.
Hope this helps.

[araneae]

Giving heat treating secrets away to a Chinese company seems to be self-defeating in the long run.

I guess I don't really understand the point of your comment. What is being "given away"? There are already knife makers and knife brands in china making knives to a high level of quality with properly treated high end steels. There is testing and data to support this. Do you think they need to have secret information given to them to accomplish this?

From all I read and have seen with my own knives, Spyderco heat treatment is very good, better than most peer companies (domestic & overseas), so make of that what you will.

I still don't see the point. So, Spyderco should not have their knife makers in China using optimal heat treatment? (I guess that assumes that they can't properly do it on their own?) Why would Spyderco not want the best processing regardless of where the knife is made?

[TkoK83Spy]

8cr is a great budget steel, as well as a great entry steel for people that are just getting into knives. It definitely has its place in certain categories.

[kennethsime]

8Cr13 suffers from the commonness effect that also plagues s30v. It's used a lot, so people decide its boring or even bad. Should Spyderco move to Sandvik 14C28N because some internet reviewer says its better? Probably not, that's no reason to make a switch. I'd wager that some of the most popular reviewers do more "reviewing" than actual using. I used 8Cr13 for years cutting boxes as I stocked shelves, yeah, it needs to be touched up after serious use, but it's easy to get back to shaving sharp.

D2 is a hot steel in import knives right now, despite the fact that the budget market is full of falsely marked knives. Testers have found that some knives marked D2 are actually 8Cr13 or some other steel, but if you read Amazon reviews, there are people proclaiming that its real D2 and its great. I wouldn't move to a different steel just because some internet reviewers seem to be against 8Cr13.

Changing steel for the previously mentioned Alcyone/Polestar raised the price considerably and didn't seem to work out for Spyderco. Would making the Tenacious a $72 knife with BD1 or 14C28N be a good decision? Probably not, that takes the knife out of what most people consider budget territory. $15 more and you've got an Endura. Would I pay almost $50 for a Cara Cara 2 with 14C28N? I don't think so. If Spyderco could move to a steel like 9Cr18 or Chinese D2 and only raise the price marginally, that might make sense. Upgrading steel should be done because it makes sense, not because it's caving in to less educated consumers and preachy YouTube reviewers.

I had a long post drafted in response to OP the other day, but I think this is really the point here. I don't know how much more a Tenacious in 14c28n would cost, but I'd wager that it's not worth it for Spyderco at this point. Maybe the sprint run idea, I dunno. I think the Tenacious is a pretty great value as-is.

For the knife nuts, a Delica is what, $20 more than a Tenacious as-is? An Endela is $30 more? If you really care about getting away from 8cr there're two great options for you.