designs - evolution - lifting

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 13630
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

designs - evolution - lifting

Postby sal » Sun Dec 15, 2019 11:50 am

This is mostly for discussion as I'm interested in your opinions on the subject.

I just purchased a Surefire "Stlileto". I like Surefire as they are tough, bright, made in the USA and they are passionate about their products, which I always respect. I've never liked their clips and felt that their ergos could improve, but ergos are very difficult on a torch. The new model is very bright, a plus, and is rechargeable, another plus, and it offers multiple strengths, which is important for some. . It also has a much improved clip, which was lifted from my hourglass clip design which took me many years to refine to where it is now. I realize that designs refine, improve and evolve and I prefer the function of their new clip.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, it just is. I was curious as to what you thought about "lifting" designs from other companies?

When I first invented the pocket clip for knives, (1980) only 3 companies used the idea and paid us a royalty. Benchmade, Gerber and Cold Steel. Although virtually every knife company in the world has used or now offers a pocket clip on their knives.

Thoughts?

sal

yablanowitz
Member
Posts: 5212
Joined: Sun Apr 09, 2006 2:16 pm
Location: Liberal, Kansas

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby yablanowitz » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:02 pm

It sure makes you wonder why you bother to innovate, doesn't it? I don't like companies taking the hard work of others and reaping the rewards for themselves, but that seems to be the nature of humans. My girlfriend runs an annual craft show here (we just held the fifty-first last weekend) and she has had a lot of people ask for her mailing list when they want to do something similar. They always get offended when she tells them no, like they have a right to use her 40 years of work in making those contacts for their own benefit.

User avatar
Evil D
Member
Posts: 22060
Joined: Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:48 pm
Location: Northern KY

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby Evil D » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:07 pm

It bothers me a lot more than your "shiny footprints" allow me to express. Imitation may be the sincerest form of flattery but to put it as nice as I can put it, copying design is just lazy and I don't buy products if I know there's something like this going on.
SHARPEN IT LIKE YOU LOVE IT, USE IT LIKE YOU HATE IT
~David

User avatar
VooDooChild
Member
Posts: 1081
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:29 am

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby VooDooChild » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:10 pm

I just looked at it on google images and yeah the bottom of that clip looks just like the hourglass clip.

The discussion of intellectual property rights is an interesting debate in general. We are all where we are at because we stand on the shoulders of giants so to speak. I think some designs and ideas become so commonplace or even necessary to use, that they can be unavoidable in the marketplace, even if many of the other companies dont necessarily "pay thier dues" or secure the rights for use.
Do you feel, even if your designs are lifted by others, that it provides more function in the world?

I think it was volvo who purposely didnt patent the seatbelt because they realized how necessary it was. But that is a different argument. The point Im making is there is alot of grey area.
sal wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm
... "The edge is a ghost"...

User avatar
elena86
Member
Posts: 2769
Joined: Fri Sep 03, 2010 6:59 am
Location: Somewhere in Europe

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby elena86 » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:18 pm

'Let's just say it's one of the reasons I only bought one (and only) little Griptillian made by ... you know....
Marius

" A mind all logic is like a knife all blade. It makes the hand bleed that uses it " ( Rabindranath Tagore )

User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 13630
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby sal » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:32 pm

Hi VooDooChild,

I agree and that's why I said it's not good or bad. The world may need an idea for the betterment of humanity. I'm not complaining, just gathering opinions. There are many countries like China that do not think an idea should be anything but public from the git-go. The USA is one of the countries that offers protection in the way of patents, trademarks and copyright. I would guess that is because of Capitalism in the US where protection helps the idea maker verses Communism where everything is shared.

When Eric and I were visiting factories in China, the makers were sincerely thanking us for creating such good designs that they could use to make money to feed their families.

sal

User avatar
Dazen
Member
Posts: 730
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:38 am
Location: Texas U.S.A. Earth

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby Dazen » Sun Dec 15, 2019 12:53 pm

I think it would just be cool if you got credit for all your ideas, by your namesake. Maybe we need to start calling it a Glesser Clip like we do the Reeve Integral Lock and Walker Liner Lock!

User avatar
Sharp Guy
Member
Posts: 5902
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2016 2:19 pm
Location: Over here!

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby Sharp Guy » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:08 pm

That business end of that clip does look very familiar. I can kind of understand using an idea but using basically the same design doesn't sit too well with me. They could've at least changed it a little.

I've thought the same thing when I've seen other companies use almost the same wire clip design.
Of all the things I've lost I miss my mind the most!

User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 13630
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby sal » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:09 pm

Hi Dazen,

Not a direction for me. "Man who beat on own chest know self over backwards". this is just a philosophical discussion.

sal

User avatar
DutchBlades
Member
Posts: 1650
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:23 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby DutchBlades » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:09 pm

Hi Sal,

Honing a design which has been improved over the course of many years takes money, time, skill, and dedication.
This surely is the case for the hourglass clip we've all come to know and love.
Simply lifting this design without any notice, consent, or agreements in place is rather tasteless if you ask me.
I was unfamiliar with this product, but after looking up some images I can agree on this being a blatant copy.

We're talking about a USA based manufacturer with a large production output, so laws differing (China for example) is no excuse here.
I can definitely see this being a cause of frustration.
I'm not a fan of company ethics like these and tend to look for alternatives instead buying from such companies.

I've snapped some pictures of a PM2 for anyone wondering what this is about:

Image
:spyder: A tiger has claws,
A wolf has teeth,
An eagle has talons.
We, have Spyderco. :spyder:

Grails: Abalone Mini Mariner, Ti ATR, WTC, Ti Lum Tanto

User avatar
VooDooChild
Member
Posts: 1081
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:29 am

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby VooDooChild » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:42 pm

Isnt there a thing in US patent law, that as long as the design is changed enough its not considered a violation? Im not sure but I know I have heard something along these lines.

On the philisophical side I guess as long as one can rest easy at night then that is what matters. There seems to be a natural human desire to make a mark on this world, or to leave a legacy. As well when it comes to a good idea, you should be able to look at your hard work, that you are proud of, and say I did that. Although its a fine line to walk while remaining humble. You might not want something named after you, but you might also not like others taking credit for your work. Clearly nobody knows more about a design than the designer.
sal wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm
... "The edge is a ghost"...

User avatar
anycal
Member
Posts: 1578
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:40 pm
Location: California

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby anycal » Sun Dec 15, 2019 1:43 pm

I remember having a pocket clip on a pen when I was a kid. So I did a quick search for clips on pens. One pattent goes back to 1916.

Having such a useful way of carrying at item, it was inevitable that the clip would make it onto products like pens, knives, flashlights, wallets, sheaths, etc., while using various different mounting mechanisms.

That said, this particular one looks just like yours.

I agree with voodoo and the comment about gray area. Patent is defined as exclusive right to invention, process, or a solution to a problem. So how far does a patent go? Shapes, general way of doing things, movements, processes found in nature?

I am not an expert, obviously.
Peter

User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 13630
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby sal » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:17 pm

Hi DutchBlades,

I'm not upset or sorry. In my opinion, it is a better design than they were using and I get the benefit of having it on my new torch.

Hey VooDooChild,

"We are tiny little drops of life stuck on the side of a round rock whirling through space for eons". What's that about legacy? I know, some of my friends know. What more can you hope for than that?

Hi Anycal,

Patents are an honor game. Nothing more. When a new patent came out in the knife industry, Peter, my R&D manager, and I would see how long it would take us to work around it. Usually about 2 weeks.

Necessity is the mother of invention. When the Axis lock came out, we needed some new locks, other than the lock-back, Walker Loiner Lock and Reeve Integral Lock. So we invented the Compression lock, the Ball Lock, the Caged ball, The Stop Lock and the Roto-Wedge. Kimiuki Sakai invented the Power Lock. I think we have a few for a while. When we wanted t improve on the Slip Joint, Tom invented the "Tuning Fork" spring, though it's hard to make. We also improved on the lock-back with our new Golden made models.

sal

User avatar
ChrisinHove
Member
Posts: 2526
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 8:12 am
Location: Thoroughly brassed off with 2020

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby ChrisinHove » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:30 pm

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, as they say. At least it’s on something good.

User avatar
DutchBlades
Member
Posts: 1650
Joined: Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:23 pm
Location: Netherlands

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby DutchBlades » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:33 pm

sal wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:17 pm
Hi DutchBlades,

I'm not upset or sorry. In my opinion, it is a better design than they were using and I get the benefit of having it on my new torch.
That is very true and without a doubt the best way to look at things.
It's just that a little acknowledgement or a notification would've seemed in place.

I've had people reverse engineer parts of software I made only to reuse and resell it without any acknowledgement.
(we're talking 1-to-1 copies of source code including my comment lines, so there's no doubt it was partly mine)
Sure others and myself can benefit from it (as is the case with this clip), but it did leave me a little resentful.
I wish I could have your outlook on life when it comes to these things :o
:spyder: A tiger has claws,
A wolf has teeth,
An eagle has talons.
We, have Spyderco. :spyder:

Grails: Abalone Mini Mariner, Ti ATR, WTC, Ti Lum Tanto

zhyla
Member
Posts: 1647
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:12 pm

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby zhyla » Sun Dec 15, 2019 2:52 pm

I think a lot of what people get bothered by can be summed up by a simple phrase: "Too soon!"

Nobody gets upset when a company puts out a chefs knife or a Bowie knife that looks suspiciously like a chefs knife or a Bowie knife. Sal, I'm sure you didn't start from ground zero when you came up with the Respect. Those knife designs are older than we are. Nobody has an emotional attachment to those designs any longer.

I would take this as an indication that you came up with a shape that really works well and is hard to improve on. It would be perhaps a little more honorable for them to make a slight tweak to the shape to not look like a total ripoff (like the oval thumb holes we see on some knives) but I can't fault them for using a very usable shape for their clip.

User avatar
sal
Member
Posts: 13630
Joined: Fri Sep 24, 2004 12:00 pm
Location: Golden, Colorado USA

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby sal » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:06 pm

They used a different fastening system which I think works better for the product they created. I still really enjoy the Torch and have found it very useful.

Some say; "All of the thoughts have been thought and all of the deeds have been done". I like to say the only things really new is babies and tomorrow.

I've certainly have had many teachers, gurus and mentors that shaped my thinking, and I appreciate all of them. We even learn from assh*les. They make the best teachers teaching us not to be assh*les.

sal

flasharry
Member
Posts: 261
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:17 pm
Location: Calgary, Alberta , Canada

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby flasharry » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:17 pm

Well.
I'm no expert of patent/copyright law at all, but it does seem unfair that good designs get copied without proper accreditation. Although I wonder if a slight change in shape, etc, would be enough for them to say its not exactly the same as the patented one? Still, imitation is the finest form of flattery?

I do think that Spyderco clips are far better than any of the others I have ..

(What I'd really love is a deep carry clip that would fit my L'il Native lockback.. That knife is a perfect size for me. I tried taking the clip off,and had carried it in pocket without the clip.. and the G10 wore holes in my jeans pockets where it rubbed on the cloth... a deep carry clip would really make me happy.. (Or if I can find some nice soft leather, may see if a pocket slip could be run up)
"You never know what lonesome is, 'til you get to herdin' cows"

User avatar
VooDooChild
Member
Posts: 1081
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 1:29 am

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby VooDooChild » Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:19 pm

sal wrote: Hey VooDooChild,

"We are tiny little drops of life stuck on the side of a round rock whirling through space for eons". What's that about legacy? I know, some of my friends know. What more can you hope for than that?

sal
I like that qoute alot. I get it too. Guess you cant hope for too much more than what you said. I personally dont let too much bother me. But when things get philisophical I will start jumping on alot of different view points. For some, there could be a positive reinforcement aspect to recognition, especially when they are younger. Being overly concerned with legacy however, probably is a fools errand.
sal wrote:
Thu May 28, 2020 8:14 pm
... "The edge is a ghost"...

wrdwrght
Member
Posts: 3396
Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:35 am

Re: designs - evolution - lifting

Postby wrdwrght » Sun Dec 15, 2019 4:14 pm

Surefires are known to be well-made, but expensive.

But when LEDs burst onto the scene, Surefire, like Maglite, dragged its feet.

Having worked for the company that cornered the LED market in the ‘80s (and learned why), and being a flashaholic (still have my Kel-lite), I looked at all the lighting innovations that began coming out of China in the ‘90s and have gone for them in a big way ever since. Better lumens, better battery life, better pricing.

The point? Some companies innovate. Others follow (then claim they make their stuff better, and even wrap it in the American flag, to catch up). I think Surefire is a follower.

Followers copy (sometimes very well). It’s in their DNA.

The dyke that contains intellectual property has many holes and innovators have only so many fingers.

But, of course, innovators get remembered.


Return to “Spyderco General Discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], cali, Google [Bot], SeanOD, vivi and 40 guests