Doubt regarding H1 sharpening...

[PolarisDesu]

Hello guys,


I have been thinking about the H1 steel and recently came to a doubt regarding what really may happen, so I wanted to know if you can explain it to me.

Since we are talking about H1, I know that it is a work hardening steel, meaning, the deformation the steel structure has, while you are using it, makes it stronger, but this deformation may come, most of the time, by pressure right? Pressure against the blade itself by another object, so, can I say that I am compacting the H1 steel? And if so, and this hardens the steel, something like the Spyderco Sharpmaker hardens the H1 as a byproduct of the sharpening process. (if I am understanding correctly)

BUT!

Here comes the catch... If I do strapping, I am basically taking away the outer layer of steel off the blade, which is most-likely, the work hardened structure from the H1 right? (By common sense) Therefore, am I losing hardness when I strap the H1?

[twinboysdad]

The work hardening thing is only applicable to Serrated edge, IIRC. The PE is a known weak edge retention but sharpens fast

[Evil D]

This has been (and will probably always remain) a well debated topic. I believe even Ed Schempp commented about the edge retention improving through repeated sharpening but that hasn't been my experience at all. I'm not saying work hardening is a myth but I believe it occurres more during the grinding processes and less (or at all) through sharpening. I've even spoke with people who had PE Salt knives reground FFG to see if that made any difference but it did not. Regardless I do think it's an excellent steel that does that it does very well. What it lacks in edge retention it makes up in toughness/ease of sharpening/corrosion proof.

[Sharp Guy]

Here comes the catch... If I do strapping, I am basically taking away the outer layer of steel off the blade, which is most-likely, the work hardened structure from the H1 right? (By common sense) Therefore, am I losing hardness when I strap the H1?

Hi PolarisDesu,

Are you referring to "stropping"? If so, wouldn't you think that sharpening on stones would remove more steel than stropping?

[PolarisDesu]

Hi PolarisDesu,

Are you referring to "stropping"? If so, wouldn't you think that sharpening on stones would remove more steel than stropping?

Sorry my English is not my native language. Indeed that is what I meant, but the thing is that when you sharpen on a wet stone, you do so with the edge looking forward in a forward motion, so the stone goes against the edge. While on the stropping process, the oxide goes away from the edge with that motion so it takes the steel away. But with the stone, it is like the stone pushes the steel towards itself, so those are two different motions.

That made me think that maybe, in the case of the H1 steel, stropping "could" weaken the hardness of the steel, since we know that H1 is a work hardened steel.

This has been (and will probably always remain) a well debated topic. I believe even Ed Schempp commented about the edge retention improving through repeated sharpening but that hasn't been my experience at all. I'm not saying work hardening is a myth but I believe it occurres more during the grinding processes and less (or at all) through sharpening. I've even spoke with people who had PE Salt knives reground FFG to see if that made any difference but it did not. Regardless I do think it's an excellent steel that does that it does very well. What it lacks in edge retention it makes up in toughness/ease of sharpening/corrosion proof.

But the bottom line remains, H1 steel IS a work hardened steel. Changes may not be seen with a simple test, but they will be noticed, undoubtedly, with time, proper and extensive use.

But if what I think indeed weakens the hardness of the H1 steel, we could strop H1 knives until we just have the handles and we would never notice any hardness increase.

I wish I could know more about what really happens inside the steel!

Edit:
PS: Not everything is subjective.

[Eli Chaps]

I have to agree with David on this and believe the end line user is not going to see any work hardening. Work hardening is something that is either going to require some level of heat or rather significant deformation to achieve.

I may be wrong as steels are mysterious materials and metallurgy borders on voodoo, but I don't think there is anything the user is going to do that will actually work harden this steel.

[PolarisDesu]

How can you agree on something you are saying you do not know? o.O

Metallurgy is neither a voodoo or a mystery, it is a science, but most of us are ignorant of it, I wish someone who knows about the H1 steel can explain to us what really happens and may happen.

[Evil D]

But the bottom line remains, H1 steel IS a work hardened steel. Changes may not be seen with a simple test, but they will be noticed, undoubtedly, with time, proper and extensive use.

But if what I think indeed weakens the hardness of the H1 steel, we could strop H1 knives until we just have the handles and we would never notice any hardness increase.

I wish I could know more about what really happens inside the steel!

Edit:
PS: Not everything is subjective.

It may well technically be a work hardening steel, but I've been using H1 for about 5 years now and I've seen zero improvement in edge retention. Maybe I sharpen different than others, maybe it's just not something that happens through hand sharpening.

[PolarisDesu]

I understood what you meant, you meant that based on your experience, the noticeable difference is simply not there, thus, so you would expect that a heavier process (Like machine grinding) would indeed manage to harden such steel.

Problem is, that does not answer what I wrote here...

[Evil D]

I understood what you meant, you meant that based on your experience, the noticeable difference is simply not there, thus, so you would expect that a heavier process (Like machine grinding) would indeed manage to harden such steel.

Problem is, that does not answer what I wrote here...

Ok sounds like I misunderstood you. If you're concerned about sharpening away the hardened steel, that's another concern I've had and I've asked the same question without getting any definitive answer. Nobody seems to know how deep the hardened steel goes and if sharpening it away is even possible. So yes, stropping would reduce how much metal is removed and so it should reduce the chance. At least I think that's what you're asking.

[Bloke]

I'm neither a metallurgist nor very smart but I highly doubt the minimal pressure exerted on the edge in hand sharpening or stropping would have any impact on hardness.

I'm also of the impression that if the metal was indeed work hardened in the manufacturing process you couldn't un-harden it by sharpening or stropping. Just my 2c worth.

[wrdwrght]

Stropping aims to remove the wire that honing can produce, no?

The wire is already no longer part of the edge but rather an obstruction waiting to get plucked off, so I don't see how its removal would alter whatever work-hardening has occurred.

In any case, my understanding of H1 work-hardening is the same as Evil's.

The scalloping to create a Spyderedge is what hardens that edge, not simple honing. Simple honing of an H1 plain-edge certainly doesn't harden the edge. Plain-edge H1 is notoriously poor for holding an edge, at least at 30dps.

[Stuart Ackerman]

Please read this thread, especaily what me2 says...he does actually know what he is talking about... :)

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=72555

[PolarisDesu]

That was a nice stuff to read. And to learn more about what I had no idea of hehe.

Sadly, I am a person that find anecdotal testimonies rather blurring instead of clarifying.

But one thing is certain for me now, the like-hood of hardening H1 by sharpening is extremely low... Which I wrongly used to start my premises. Although, It is still unknown for me, the effects of stropping on H1 steel.