EDC - some concerns about SD

[i.v]

i think i need some advice on this.
ever since the stabbing incident of that college student i have been thinking, as i'm sure many of you have too, about the possibility i may be forced to use my knife for SD purposes.
even before that i never felt comfortable carrying a large blade, infact, i consider anything larger than a cricket to be a large knife.
by law here i can carry a 4" blade (if i have a "good" reason) & never have any trouble with it, but as i said, i'm not even comfortable walking around with a delica or native.
it could be something wrong with me, but as a soldier i do tend to look at knives somewhat as weapons (even though i know they're not).. it is my fear that others look at it the same way which prevents me from carrying anything other than my cricket.
i find it funny because i'm used to being around knives, in the army everyone has them, i have a delica & native & a 6" bowie with me & i feel fine with it! infact my 6" blade is considered slim & small in comparison to what other people in my company carry!
& then i get home & my native suddenly seems like a huge threatning blade!
anyway, to my point
i had an incident yeasterday in which i was forced to defend myself, an attempted mugging at the threat of a knife. i will never ever let anyone mug me so my first thought was "ok, reach out for my cricket" but i didn't, i couldn't bring myself to do that.. my training in "krav maga" kickboxing & other hand to hand techniques did the rest without causing damage to the guy....
basically after some thinking i realized that i was scared to death to use my knife for SD even as an armed attacker is risking my life...
funny how things turn up... i've been in a combat enviorment for almost 3 years & the second i take off my uniform the thought using a weapon against someone scares the living **** out of me...

[i.v]

i got carried away in my own thinking :)
anyway, short point, should you ever have to use your knife in SD will you be able to? if so, do you think it's wise to carry large blades?
me? for self defense i'm starting to carry my comtech stinger...

[Mr Blonde]

good to hear you are still fine after that mugging. Back to your questions...
I'd like to think that I am ready to use my edc for sd if I had to, I've been training long enough and I did my soul searching on when, why and how far will you go. Fortunately, I have no practical sd experience whatsoever .. so I must be doing something right

I carry only folders that are well below the legal limit over here, so these are around the 3 inch blade length. I think the first thing is to be absolutely comfortable with what your carrying. For some, that's a Chinook, for others a Delica. That Cricket of yours is more than capable as an SD knife. Sure, you won't be duelling with it at the sandbar like Jim Bowie, but for escape type techniques it's a very good piece. The Cricket is easy to open and hang on to.

The Stinger is also a very cool tool, and if that's what your comfortable with then more power to you. I know I would be carrying one if I were allowed to carry a purposefully designed defensive implement. We have strict laws against such items as brass knuckles and OC spray, I think the stinger would fall into that category.

Keep safe,

Wouter

[UK KEN]

i.v

It is good to know that you are the sort of person that gives consideration to a situation before reacting. The problem is if your assailant were armed you can be absolutely certain that he would not demonstrate the same restraint!

Weather carrying a weapon on or off duty I would have thought that your training would kick in almost immediately and your actions be virtually automatic. The compassion you show be it as a result of concern for your attacker or the possible legal implications could result in you being injured! You know that in a combat situation a moment of hesitation can be the difference between walking away from the incident and being carried.

I understand that every situation is different and you are aware of your own capabilities, all factors should be quickly assessed and acted upon with your own personal safety taking paramount importance. After all, you didn’t ask to be attacked! A forumite here uses the phrase “I’d rather be tried by 11 than carried by 6” not a bad idea!

Take care of yourself.

Ken

[loki88]

I carry knives for SD purposes, but i threat them as i would threat a firearm. I would only use them in a deadly threat against myself or another person. If u get attacked with a deadly weapon and u use deadly force to twart it, u are safe from prosecution. I would not stab or cut anyone who is not at least armed with a weapon. I have other means to my disposal to neutralise unarmed attacks (OC spray, sjambok). I am also a strong advocate of hiding the knife untill it comes in action. I practice FMA and did some Krav Maga, but NEVER use a weapon as a warning. it will give the other guy a reason to say " hey he threathened me wit a knife first so i just stabbed him". Keep it conceiled untill the BG suddenly feels rather unpleasant and unexpected loss of bloodvolume, or loss of conscience, AFTER he made the first move. I know it's "attack the attacker first", but remember that there can always be witnesses who "saw " u pull out a blade, and stab the poor guy who tried to defend himself.

Stay safe 1*

[lux]

I personally would never even consider using any knife for SD purposes... Especially in the case of a mugging... I would rather loose out materially then mentally anyday- Just my two cents-

[4 s ter]

I carry a knife as a tool, but just like a wrench, it could be used for self defense should the situation call for it. Could I use it for real? - I hope to never find out for real.

lux - the problem is that you can't be sure that your money is the only thing you are going to lose - by the time you find out that your life is already at risk it may be to late to act.

David

[i.v]

the dilema of using the knife for self defense was moral & not legal as legally i was covered.
the difference between a knife & a wrench is the greater likelyhood for the knife to inflict lethal wounds.
as for "losing materially", for me that is unacceptable simply because i think muggers should not be allowed to succeed or they will do it again.. fighting is not the only way. there is no shame in running & it's by far the better option if possible..

[Jimd]

I.V., I'm glad you'e okay.

As for "losing out materially"...people who advocate "Just giving the criminal your money, watch, girlfriend, first-born, etc." are naive.

Let's take a look at WHY many modern criminals mug/rob people. Many do it for power, for the thrill of it. When you offer no resistance and simply hand over your goods, you're giving them no thrill. And often, that pisses them off. I work with criminals daily, so I know this to be true in many cases.

That's why we're hearing about many people, when confronted, giving up their valuables, and still being hurt/killed. The criminal loves having power over others, and being able to inflict terror.

Any time someone confronts me with a weapon, it is on!!! End of story, no more rap. We will be fighting. If he has a knife, my gun is coming out, if I'm carrying. If not, then my knife is coming out, which I'm never without, and I will use it. No question. I can say this, having been in a few lethal force incidents in my time, I know exactly what I'm going to do.

Someone presenting a weapon toward you and/or your loved ones has legally demonstrated their willingness to cause you Serious Bodily Injury or Death. In short, they're threatening Lethal Force. Personally, I'm going to immediatly neutralize their capabilities.

NOW....when you go into court (if you stick around for the authorities to arrive), remember...you weren't trying to kill the other guy, only STOP him from harming you. And you very much felt that your personal safety was in great jeopardy.

If I see a knife or gun come out against me, I'm going to act swiftly and decisively.

Furthermore, as I.V. pointed out, we have a duty in such situations. As he said, if we don't stop these cretins from mugging us, then they'll move on to others after they've had their way with us. Perhaps their next victim will be a mother and her kids. Do you want to live with that? I do not.

[Jimd]

Forgot to add to my long-winded rant: I don't really carry my knives with the sole intent of self-defense. Rather, they're tools that I use to cut various things. They're very useful. Self-defense is right around the last thing on my list of reasons to carry a knife.

[Hannibal Lecter]

Any time someone confronts me with a weapon, it is on!!! End of story, no more rap. We will be fighting. If he has a knife, my gun is coming out, if I'm carrying. If not, then my knife is coming out, which I'm never without, and I will use it. No question. I can say this, having been in a few lethal force incidents in my time, I know exactly what I'm going to do.

Someone presenting a weapon toward you and/or your loved ones has legally demonstrated their willingness to cause you Serious Bodily Injury or Death. In short, they're threatening Lethal Force. Personally, I'm going to immediately neutralize their capabilities.

NOW....when you go into court (if you stick around for the authorities to arrive), remember...you weren't trying to kill the other guy, only STOP him from harming you. And you very much felt that your personal safety was in great jeopardy.

If I see a knife or gun come out against me, I'm going to act swiftly and decisively.

All entirely true. If I am in immediate fear of my life or safety, it comes down to me or them.

And it will not be me should I be able to prevent it.

I refuse to willingly be victimized or to stand by as my loved ones are. While I abhor the thoughts of taking a human life, there are some things much worse.


Ta,

H

[Jimd]

Concerns were brought up about blade length. Essentially, "Is the tiny blade of my (insert knife name here) enough for Self-D?

Probably not. Why ever so, you ask? Good question.

Knives stop people from attacking us for a few reasons:
1. Because knives scare people.
2. They cause serious blood loss.

A tiny blade might deter someone, but mostly for psychological reasons, even if you cut them with it. The reason they break off their attack is likely to be because they're mind tells them, "You're cut, you better get out of there and get yourself patched up". It is that simple, and that's a fact.

Another fact: Massive blood loss is the only way to truly stop an attacker from killing you. I've seen this in person. People can function with massive, life-threatening injuries, and that's just the way it is, guys.

You need a blade that is going to penetrate. And I'm not talking about a few well-place little cuts here; I mean stabbing. It's the only way you're going to get an attacker who's determined to kill you off of you and save your life or the life of a loved one. Again, this is largely fact.

A 2-inch blade is not going to do that for you. Start thinking about blade that are a minimum of 3-inches, and even that is going light. Four inches is better. Longer than that is even better.

I once saw a man, who happened to be standing right next to me, take four stabs into his back from a blade that was approximately 11 or 12 inches long. The blade penetrated both shoulder blades, both lungs, and grazed his heart. He continued to fight his attacker for at least 30 seconds, possibly for a minute.

Meanwhile, being on duty and unarmed (I was in the prison), I **** near filled my undershorts as the attacker came at me with the knife.

Point being, don't expect your attacker to fall to the ground, because it rarely happens, if ever. I've seen lots of stabbings/cuttings, and I can't recall one where the victim simply fell down.

So that's why you need to utilize a knife blade that is serious. I realize that, due to legalities, we can't always do that. Is a Cricket better than nothing? You bet! Is it adequate? Well.....maybe. But not my first choice.

Do the best with what you have at the time. But try to have the best that you can at that critical moment.

[fret]

Good to hear you are ok. If I were to defend myself, I'd want the longest blade possible. At least about 3" or longer. I measured my old Delica and it's a quarter inch shy of 3". Maybe I'll have to carry my Endura? I'd do everything to prevent a confrontation but if that's what the criminal wants then that's what he'll get. I won't give up without a fight.

[OutofGum]

I am not trained in any sort of MBC which is why under most circumstances I would not pull a knife in SD - there is a real chance it could be taken from me or I would actually hurt myself with it. If it were a situation where a knife was the only chance I had, I would pull it, but otherwise, I'd try not to.

There is an interesting compromise when carrying a knife for SD: a large knife will have more deterrent effect but is illegal, where as a small knife has little deterrent effect, but is legal... sometimes complying with the law may cause more injury. You are more likely to fight with a small knife than with a large one.

I remember a few years ago someone on this forum wrote about being stalked at night. So along the way, they stopped under a streetlight and pulled out their matriach and just started cleaning under their nails with it. It scared the guy off and I like the think about the picture of stopping under a light with light gleaming off a matiarch blade, its enough to make anyone think twice. However, its definitely illegal here.

Congrats of fighting the guy off i.v. I have a lot of respect for krav magna, for SD purposes, that is a great tool to have (required in the army, correct?).

[i.v]

krav maga is required in some branches of the army, yes, not much more i can say :D
in case anyone wondered, krav maga basically means "contact combat"

i found a lot of opinions here so far but most of you have missed my point.
should you use a large blade in your self defense & use it for stabbing as Jimd said, you risk, killing your attacker, even a delica can kill, infact, i'm sure it can do too good of a job at it.
taking a life is not pretty, trust me.. & that's the problem, legallities are of little interest to me while being attacked, just my conscience.
so i guess that knives more usefull for SD will obviously be those designed for it & those which are the least lethal.. SPOT comes to mind the most.. a folding version would probably do the trick for me :D

[druid]

I do not like the idea of having to use a knife for self-defense. For my own personal carry and utilities a cricket or even by Jester with grated rope attached is sufficient. I sometimes carry larger spiderco mostly under 3 inches. Over the five years that I've carried knives I have come to appoint my life perhaps naïvely and , obviously some scarily(that I was carrying bigger knives in the first place) where do not feel necessity. Also I wear my shirts out and don't like to advertise the fact that I am carrying a knife and public for this reason I consider my native and small centofante large knives and my three and half-inch bench made Pinnacle almost out of the question. But dammit I collect knives and I like the carry them. Although I don't think that counts as a good reason in the eyes of the law. But it is most of my reason for carrying anything larger than a cricket. By the way how much trouble can you get in for having your knife obscured by your shirt tales. Is it as bad as having a knife in your waistband.

[thombrogan]

I.V.,

Glad you're okay.

I don't see the need for you to get a larger knife, just another Spyderco of similar size as a present to yourself. If your decency keeps you from carving open a mugger's face with your Cricket, I don't think that it will go elsewhere should you start carrying a Civilian. If you must use a knife to defend your life, cutting to allow you to run is your best option and a Cricket will do that as well as any other Spyderco (almost said any other knife, but that'd be a gross understatement).

[silverback]

You pose a very serious and difficult question.
Most of us don't have enough training to even think about such niceties as what kind of blade they should use, or if a blade is even required.
Your recollection of the incident leads me to the conclusion that you have excessive training in armed/unarmed combat. If you feel you can handle any situation with a small SD knife, that's fine, otherwise carry a bigger one. (why not carry the Spot, btw.?)
I am big and had good training in Karate, no training with knives, so my first impulse is to fight an unarmed attacker but flee from a knife.
If I can't run from someone with a knife, I want the meanest weapon I can find. That might be my knife, but I don't carry them for SD, so go figure...
My opinion is, by attacking me with a knife you accept to be hurt seriously.
The attacker, in fact, determines the response.
That's why, on the other hand, I would use a knife against multiple unarmed attackers only as a last resort.
I hope I never have to fight in such a way.

Hope this helps, maybe you need to read Kant's "metaphysics of mores" (hope that's the english translation) for additional thoughts on how to act.

[m_calingo]

so my first thought was "ok, reach out for my cricket" but i didn't, i couldn't bring myself to do that.. my training in "krav maga" kickboxing & other hand to hand techniques did the rest without causing damage to the guy....
...

Your post provides some very good insight into the question of whether to use a knife in SD or not. Your existing training kicked in and you took care of the situation. When the stuff hits the fan, you have to be able to react accordingly, and not wonder what to do next.

Wondering if it is ok to use your knife in a situation is wondering what to do next and will waste precious few fractions of a second in addressing the situation at hand. That is the "deer caught in the headlights" sort of reaction many untrained people have when attacked by a total stranger out in the street.

I think the important issue is to decide for yourself if you will, or won't use your knife for SD. If you do, make sure you know how to use it, and if you don't, then have a suitable alternative course of action that you could implement in the blink of an eye.

[loki88]

i don't understand what u mean? I would like too give everyone the advise to read "Knife fighting " by Mike Janich. The only way to stop an attacker is to make massive cuts , preferably in his knifearm/hand, severing muscles, tendons and arteries , or getting into their life support organs, meaning direct stabs into the heart or the brain, or severing spinal cord. Knives don't have a deterent factor, u only draw a weapon when u are ready to use it. I am a LEO who has been suspended for 1,5 year now for hitting 2 drug crased Crack heads who attacked me with a needle screaming "HIV, HIV", and a knife , I whacked them HARD untill they went down with my baton. I survived the attack, but i am suspended untill the trial. Do i think i did the right thing? yes, i survived, did i get a LOAD of trouble because it? yes because they tought i shouldn't have hit them 1O times each untill they went down. But even going thru all the frustration and loss of income there was never one second that i regretted my action, because i had to survive, and u doi wat it takes to survive.