Harvard Student --- Murder or Self Defense ??

[sunshine]

Hi Sunshine. Welcome to the Spyderco forum.

I believe you will find some interesting "minds" here and the perspective would be from folks quite knowledgeable in the world of knives in general and Spyderco knives in particular.

I too have been closely watching the case. I designed the knife that Alex used.

While I am sorry that someone died (everyone has some good in them), the case itself is quite the sad story from the incident to the trial.

There are many questions left unanswered in this case. It will be interesting to see if Alex' attornies pursue.

I believe the wound locations and depths tell 90% of the story, but IMO, there are too few knife experts in the courts.

sal

Hi Sal, thanks for the welcome! So you designed that knife? It's beautiful. I don't know a lot about knives, but I have been learning since I've watched this trial.

PW, I beleive had been given the knife, or his first knife, I don't know if it was that one, at around age 10. He used to carve stuff as a kid.

In Co. and other places out that way, it's not unusual for kids to be given that type of knife. They do a lot of camping and things like that. He alway carried it in his back pocket. They showed his jeans in court and you coould see where the spot on the back pocket was shaped like the knife. LOL

I don't beleive he carried the knife as a self defense weapon, but I'm glad he had it that night.

The 5 stab wounds that MC received were not actually as stated in the news. There were three that were more surface slash wounds. I think two were stabs. One non leathal. The one that was leathal was to the heart. But MC didn't know he was stabbed right away, until he got in the car, according to SR and his GF. He did run back to the car and got in. He was the first one to see the knife. SR testified that MC yelled "He's got a knife." when PW pulled it out. SR said "lets get out of here". They ran and drove off. Hid behind a Trader Joes. They said they could hear the sirens so they headed to Boston. PW did not know that MC was hurt badly because he ran off and seemed fine. I think that's why he lied. When he found out that MC died he was quite upset, then told them everything.

I think the phone call to the female friend was more like bragging that he had been in the fight and stabbed them to fend them off. Bad judgement, but if he really though he had killed someone I don't think he would have said anything like that.

[dyad]

Sunshine.I may be wrong but I think dyad meant that MC family said he was a great guy.

This is what I meant sorry wasn't clearer on matter.

Sunshine:PW, I believe had been given the knife, or his first knife, I don't know if it was that one, at around age 10. He used to carve stuff as a kid.

P-W did have a collection of knives not sure of the brand's.

Sal mentioned the complexity of this case. I found this true from watching Court TV and following the CTV post. I don't envy Sal having to answer questions or defending his product (s). We live in such a litigious society today..
" eat a Big Mac and bag of fries..and gain 5 lbs. You own a piece of McDonalds." This add’s to cost of products and liability insurance for mfg’s.

A quote from Don Rearic :" Today he not only finds he has to defend himself on the street. But also in court." He preferred the former.

Hindsite : I would have tried to walk away..or tried too !

From watching the prosecution . My gut feeling this was a Political Trial. Not one of self-defense ! As Sunshine mentioned.

Many thanks to other ‘s comments. Trials as this effect us all in one way or another !!

[sal]

Hi Sunshine,

"In Co. and other places out that way, it's not unusual for kids to be given that type of knife. They do a lot of camping and things like that. He alway carried it in his back pocket. They showed his jeans in court and you coould see where the spot on the back pocket was shaped like the knife. LOL"

I don't think Colorado or any other location has anything to do with carrying a knife. Those that are interested in knives think of it as normal as a girl carrying lipstick.

I was born and raised in New York City. I think you will find folks that hang out around here are from all over the world, urban, suburban and rural.

Self defense is probably a thought "here and there" for some and "primary" for others, but the interest in knives for their own sake would be no different than most hobbies.

As far as self defense goes, most "knife aficianados" would feel it acceptable if attacked, to defend oneself with a knife if one was available and there was no other choice. After all, assault is also against the law.

sal

[sunshine]

Hey sal!


"I don't think Colorado or any other location has anything to do with carrying a knife. Those that are interested in knives think of it as normal as a girl carrying lipstick."

Welll there ya go. I learn something new everyday. I would not have thought of this in this way, but I can see that if you are a knife person you would not think anyting of someone carrying one, or collecting them either.

Isn't it funny how someone who does not have the interest or are not a collector of something, such as knives, guns, base ball cards or whatever, never think in terms of others have a great interest in it.

My daughter looks at knives and swords with interest, and can't understand why. Funny when you don't see the same things.

Thanks Sal.

[AllenETreat]

Maybe he always thought of his family's well-being when mugging folks?

Thom ]justifiable
lethal force[/i] - in short, reach for the pepper spray & empty the container
on the would-be assailant - the results I doubt would land one in front of
a jury. In a life-or-death struggle, if one had only a knife though, I say :

USE IT!

Sunshine ;

A warm welcome aboard! While I'm at it, what's your favorite :spyder: ?

AET

[Stevie Ray]

So ... Sunshine ...

Who do you represent? I assume you are an attorney? I do appreciate your approach. In my company things get recorded and brought out years later. So talk to me....

What do you want? The jury has already spoken.

[thombrogan]

We get alotta that here in good ol' Connecticut - those poor, under-priviledged gangbangers ( who, BTW don't pay the law any heed ) that go out & get killed by some citizen! I suppose if they found some
crack on the late Mr. Colono it would society's fault as well.

AET,

Remember: taxpaying, law-abiding citizens actually cause their law-breaking brethren to commit crimes. We send out some sort of mind-control ray that makes normal people sell drugs to children and perpetrate all sorts of nasty acts.

I, too, am not a big fan of using a knife as a weapon. Like I really need some SOB with hepatitis bleeding out on me. If I want that, I want a tattoo or contaminated food to go with it! Pepper spray or a firearm would be a much better idea.

I may be wrong but I think dyad meant that MC family said he was a great guy.

I meant that the late fellow in the case was a wonderful man who only attacked strangers while in a fit of altruistic rage.

[AllenETreat]

AET,

Remember: taxpaying, law-abiding citizens actually cause their law-breaking brethren to commit crimes. We send out some sort of mind-control ray that makes normal people sell drugs to children and perpetrate all sorts of nasty acts.

I, too, am not a big fan of using a knife as a weapon. Like I really need some SOB with hepatitis bleeding out on me. If I want that, I want a tattoo or contaminated food to go with it! Pepper spray or a firearm would be a much better idea.



I meant that the late fellow in the case was a wonderful man who only attacked strangers while in a fit of altruistic rage.

Thom ]www.JLSDP.com[/url]

Irv Miller has some wonderful alternatives to contact with the contaminated!

altruistic rage!?! Laughing My @$$ Off!

Ho, ho, ho, ha, ha, ha! :D

AET

[sunshine]

So ... Sunshine ...

Who do you represent? I assume you are an attorney? I do appreciate your approach. In my company things get recorded and brought out years later. So talk to me....

What do you want? The jury has already spoken.

Well I'm definitly not an attorney or anything close to one. If I were one I would have said that, and still asked for opinions. I am interested in opinions from people who carry a knife, and could possible find themselves in a situation such as this. Would you use it if you found yourself in danger? If you had a two on one attack on you, do you think it would be self defense to use it?

I'm actually an advocate for the elderly in nursing homes. Grassroots not state.

I beleive that the MA justice system has condoned gang related violence by over charging APW with 1st degree murder. I feel strongly they have sent out a message that it is OK for gang members to attack anyone walking on their "turf". Did you read the articles I posted? Now I don't know where you live, but gang related crime is going up in MA. and it is getting to the point where you are not safe walking anywhere. I don't mean late at night, but during the day. If your not caught between two gangs fighting your attacked for being on their turf. Turf you are paying taxes for.

If you were attacked by two known (to the police) thugs and you used your knife to protect yourself, then charged with murder, how would you feel if the jury took the picture of the person you stabbed and hung it in the jury room everyday, so they wouldn't " lose site of the victim." Doesn't this make it a bit unfair to the the defendant. He was also a victim yet they did not hang his picture. Makes me feel they had already decided this case. Is it a bit biased to hang a picture of the victim up so your constantly reminded of the fact that he died.

If it were you, would you feel it fair that a jury do this to you.

Thanks for assuming I'm an attorney. I'll take it as a compliment, I wish I made the money they do. LOL

[Stevie Ray]

Sunshine,

Good thoughtful questions and yes, I was being complimentary as your notes are very engaging. As to your questions, I don't suppose one really knows what he or she would do when struggling for life itself.

I do belive in prevention vs protection as a primary defense mechanism. Obviously, PW's case has many variables associated with it, but he was out walking around in the wee hours, intoxicated, and he inflicted multiple stab wounds on the other fellow. Why didn't he keep walking when the guys insulted him? Why didn't he run when the 2 guys went after him? Why didn't he slash the fellow with his knife instead of stabbing him 5 times in the vital organ area? Why was he there at all (it sounds like it might have been a bad area)? Could he have slept it off somewhere instead of staggering home at 1 am or so?

What if he had used a gun instead of a knife? Would this be a different discussion?

[sal]

As Steve mentioned, it is very difficult to know what one might do, unless one has trained and prepared for such a situation (as a law enforcement professional might do).

Once the attack begins, "rules" take a 2nd position.

My son has a friend that was walking with his girlfriend in Denver. A group (gang) approached him, called him out and the leader hit him before he realized the gravityof the situation. He was knocked down, hit his head on the curb and is now paralyzed for life. I can see Sunshine's point of view.

Having a potential weapon and not using it is probably best.

Allen, a full can of Pepper spray in someone's mouth will probably kill them.

A small knife that is not as likely to kill would be an advantage. a slash to the fingers or forearm, as most of the "pros" (Michael, Bram, James, etc) suggest would probably stop the altercation with less than life threatening damage.

In Alex' case, there were too many "could have's" and "should have's", that went against him. There are also many arguments in his defense, but it seems, not enough.

The 5 "stab" wounds were not as they sound (2 were light slashes, one in an arm, the deepest was 1-3/4" deep and "happened to nick the ventricle). It doesn't sound like Alex was aiming or was skilled, which corroborates his story. But, he lied and his testimony seemed difficult to believe.

I would like to see a re-trial. I would like to personally study the evidence of the "stabs". I believe I could tell more about what really happened. Too many lies in the courtroom to really know.

I was scheduled to be a witness to demontrate that Spyderco does not make "weapons" for killing. A local police person of high standings spoke highly of the company (Spyderco) so my trip was cancelled. I provided information to both the defense and to the Evan Nappan, who was the knife expert in the case.

It is certainly possible that there was political motivation as there would be on any highly controversial TV court case. Look at the OJ Simpson trial.

If you cut someone with a knife (and stick around), you are going to go to jail. Whether or not you stay there is the question. "Think before you cut" is always a good rule.

sal

[Simona]

...., I provided information to both the defense and to the Evan Nappan, who was the knife expert in the case. ...
sal

Mr.Glesser, please, you are speaking about Evan F. Nappen, Attorney at Law, from Eatontown, New Jersey ??
If yes, he have had really one from best lawyers for criminal defense...

I have read few his cases...interesting criminal cases..

[AllenETreat]

Allen, a full can of Pepper spray in someone's mouth will probably kill them.

I actually had occassion to use a full can of pepper spray on a drunken
assailant ( it was a "gas" spray - which even got me! :eek: ) - it didn't
kill'im but sent'im packin'! I'm an advocate of "walk away if-you-can" in
such situations as Stevie Ray pointed out - it is very tempting
at times - but it's mere provocation, imagine if he had used a gun?

AET

[sunshine]

A small knife that is not as likely to kill would be an advantage. a slash to the fingers or forearm, as most of the "pros" (Michael, Bram, James, etc) suggest would probably stop the altercation with less than life threatening damage.

In Alex' case, there were too many "could have's" and "should have's", that went against him. There are also many arguments in his defense, but it seems, not enough.

The 5 "stab" wounds were not as they sound (2 were light slashes, one in an arm, the deepest was 1-3/4" deep and "happened to nick the ventricle). It doesn't sound like Alex was aiming or was skilled, which corroborates his story. But, he lied and his testimony seemed difficult to believe.

I would like to see a re-trial. I would like to personally study the evidence of the "stabs". I believe I could tell more about what really happened. Too many lies in the courtroom to really know.

I was scheduled to be a witness to demontrate that Spyderco does not make "weapons" for killing. A local police person of high standings spoke highly of the company (Spyderco) so my trip was cancelled. I provided information to both the defense and to the Evan Nappan, who was the knife expert in the case.

Thanks Sal,

You are right when you say that APW was not aiming or skilled in using the knnife as a self defense weapon. Whan he grabbed it out of his pocket, he was down with one man over his back and MC in front of him. I beleive he just slashed upwards to fend MC away from in front of him.

There were to many lies in this case, on both sides. The prosecution main witness was an ex-convicted felon who had changed his story too, many time as APW did. I never will understand why he wasn't charged with failing to get a dying man help. I thought there were laws regarding that.

Who knows, we may see a retrial.

[sal]

Hi Simona. Evan wasn't the defense attorney for the case. The attorney for Alex was Rick Levinson.

Evan was the expert witness that they called in to talk about the knife. Joyce and Evan have been in communication for many years.

Evan contacted me prior to his going to Boston to get some details about the purpose of the Military design.

We sent him a sample of the knife and a copy of the Spyderco story, which goes into details about the military design.

sal

[dyad]

Well I'm definitly not an attorney or anything close to one. If I were one I would have said that, and still asked for opinions. I am interested in opinions from people who carry a knife, and could possible find themselves in a situation such as this. Would you use it if you found yourself in danger? If you had a two on one attack on you, do you think it would be self defense to use it?

Sunshine : ( set aside the P-W case for a moment ).
I think most here know what there state laws say regarding self-defense . Protecting ones property against felons.
(I think Alaska is clear that "deadly force it not to be used against felons"".)
It seems more and more victims are being charged with " excessive use of deadly force". Even law enforcement. (I’m not an attorney either ).
Ohio law is clear on : " Even if you’ve been robbed you are not to pursue the felon -Immediate threat has gone. If he isn’t trying to kill you right now you aren’t justified to use lethal force." This is what I heard from the night prosecutor . ( I learned this the hard way a few years ago.). I also learned to not "admit or deny" this incident happened !. Considering what I went through.. I didn’t think the hickory axe handle was excessive use of deadly force ! To settle this issue I did agree to pay all medical providing I got a restraining order. I am so glad this mess was settled in Night Prosecutor court.
We are permitted to protect ourselves." But ya gotta read the fine print". I don’t understand where this law came into being…" Violating a felon’s Civil Rights came from"
To answer your question. As a senior and not able to run as I use to.. " Yes I would do what was necessary to protect - save my life." ( I usually carry a dummy wallet anyway. )

I'm actually an advocate for the elderly in nursing homes. Grassroots not state.

So glad you are advocate . More are needed . A few of my neighbors ( in 70 -80 yrs ) refuse a rest home so myself and couple others see that they get Meals on Wheels -trips to doctors or pickup the med’s for them.

If you were attacked by two known (to the police) thugs and you used your knife to protect yourself, then charged with murder, how would you feel if the jury took the picture of the person you stabbed and hung it in the jury room everyday, so they wouldn't " lose site of the victim." Doesn't this make it a bit unfair to the the defendant. He was also a victim yet they did not hang his picture. Makes me feel they had already decided this case. Is it a bit biased to hang a picture of the victim up so your constantly reminded of the fact that he died.

If it were you, would you feel it fair that a jury do this to you.

Hanging the picture of the victim in jury room ??? I think would be illegal !!!! So biased !
I think others are feeling the same as you and I. Here’s a couple of links from Court TV message board if anyone wants to look at them .

http://www.petitiononline.com/qr4e5ftr/petition.html
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/supportforapw/

[Simona]

Hi Simona. Evan wasn't the defense attorney for the case. The attorney for Alex was Rick Levinson.

Evan was the expert witness that they called in to talk about the knife. Joyce and Evan have been in communication for many years.

Evan contacted me prior to his going to Boston to get some details about the purpose of the Military design.

We sent him a sample of the knife and a copy of the Spyderco story, which goes into details about the military design.

sal

Thanks for info Mr.Glesser!

[ASmitty]

That's ridiculous. There's a huge difference between going to war and getting into a drunken fight on a college campus. I believe that a person has the right to defend themselves from an attack but if you stab someone five times you better have some reason to have believed that you were going to be "carried by 6" as you put it or you're gonna be "tried by 12" and I for one am going to hope they "put you away for at least 20".

[AllenETreat]

...but this baby's going BTT. I recommend you click on that 1st link
in dyad's last post & add to the 695 ( I'm no. 695 ) that believe this
was a mis-carriage of justice.

AET

[Senate]

I think being drunk suppress your ability to judge if you're in legitimate state of SD and therefore the level of response to be applied... He has no excuse to make us all look like possible murderers...