Red loctite

[Zatx]

Guys, why are some making insulting remarks about the intelligence level of end users? 99% of this thread has not been an assault against Sal or Spyderco, not real sure why this thread turned nasty towards people who want to take apart an object that they own.

We do not rent our knives, we buy them, they are our personal property. If someone chooses to disassemble their knife they void their warranty. It is their choice to make.

Spyderco has choices as well. They clearly state that to take apart your knife will result in their not fixing it free of charge under warranty. I do not bemoan them for having such a warranty, they are honoring the language of their warranty.

I respect both sides of this issue.

If there is a mechanical reason that fasteners need to be more aggressively secured through the use of stronger adhesives (i.e. causing screws to become loose) I am all for it.

But if red Loctite is being used just in an attempt to stop customers from disassembling their knife, I have to ask... why?

Really... why?

There are two reasons this seems nonsensical to me:

1) As soon as I turn that torx bit I have voided my warranty and Spyderco is completely off the hook. Cost to Spyderco = $0

2) The people that want to perform maintenance or customization of their knife are still going to do so if there is red loctite being used. It's not like they are going to put the torx driver in the screw, try to turn it, hit resistance, and then set their tools down and say "oh well, I guess I'll go shovel snow instead." Cost to Spyderco = $0


Just to reiterate my position... I'm okay with the use of red Loctite for engineering reasons, but it shouldn't really be an attempt to regulate someone's behavior.

That being said, Spyderco can continue to use red Loctite all they want, it's their choice... I just wish they would make replacement screws available for purchase for us owners (who happen to be very educated and intelligent, but don't have very good muscular dexterity) that like to take our knives apart.

Thank you, Sal, and the entire Spyderco team for your hard work. I've carried, appreciated, and recommended your knifes for many years and have no plans to stop over this issue.

[The Deacon]

Guys, why are some making insulting remarks about the intelligence level of end users? 99% of this thread has not been an assault against Sal or Spyderco, not real sure why this thread turned nasty towards people who want to take apart an object that they own.

The issue is not people wanting to take apart something they own. That's their right, just as it would be their right to put something the own on the ground and hit it with a sledgehammer. The issue is with people who are not "mechanically competent" enough to take something apart, do so anyway, damage the item, then blame the manufacturer.

2) The people that want to perform maintenance or customization of their knife are still going to do so if there is red loctite being used. It's not like they are going to put the torx driver in the screw, try to turn it, hit resistance, and then set their tools down and say "oh well, I guess I'll go shovel snow instead."

The mechanically competent ones will put down their torx driver, go fetch a small hammer and try tapping the screw. If hey still hit resistance, they'll pause again, grab a soldering pencil, heat the screw, and try once more, and succeed. The mechanically incompetent ones will refuse to be defeated by a tiny little screw and use brute force, with predictable results. Even that's fine, if they say "Oops, I really messed up", but this thread would not exist if they did that, now would it.

[FlexxxStrops]

Personally I have never stripped any screw from spyderco, actually I don't think I have on any knife.

I am one of those guy's who takes my knives a part for maintenance, Its like anything else mechanical.....general maintenance is required IMO.

Just do it right the fist time, its saves a lot of hassle in the end.

Red loctite is a bad decision

[Zatx]

Guys, why are some making insulting remarks about the intelligence level of end users? 99% of this thread has not been an assault against Sal or Spyderco, not real sure why this thread turned nasty towards people who want to take apart an object that they own.

The issue is not people wanting to take apart something they own. That's their right, just as it would be their right to put something the own on the ground and hit it with a sledgehammer. The issue is with people who are not "mechanically competent" enough to take something apart, do so anyway, damage the item, then blame the manufacturer.

2) The people that want to perform maintenance or customization of their knife are still going to do so if there is red loctite being used. It's not like they are going to put the torx driver in the screw, try to turn it, hit resistance, and then set their tools down and say "oh well, I guess I'll go shovel snow instead."

The mechanically competent ones will put down their torx driver, go fetch a small hammer and try tapping the screw. If hey still hit resistance, they'll pause again, grab a soldering pencil, heat the screw, and try once more, and succeed. The mechanically incompetent ones will refuse to be defeated by a tiny little screw and use brute force, with predictable results. Even that's fine, if they say "Oops, I really messed up", but this thread would not exist if they did that, now would it.

Deacon, I respect you and appreciate your input and participation on these forums. We've been around here a pretty long while now.

I think this thread would still be here because as I said in a previous post, I used the exact same techniques and exact same tools, but due to a recent change, I had vastly different results. I consider myself both intelligent and mechanically competent and managed to strip out the head of a screw.

This occurred due to one of three scenarios:

1) My competency level has fallen (possible, but I'm only 45).

2) Spyderco is using a stronger threadlocker product.

Or

3) Spyderco is using lower grade, softer fasteners.


While I accept full responsibility for #1, many other competent people are experiencing similar issues, which leads me to believe it comes down to #2 or #3.

Does that mean everyone will strip a screw? Nope. Does it mean some people should not take apart their knives? Maybe, but again Spyderco does not have to repair a knife that has been taken apart and no matter what color the product is, those people are still going to take their knives apart.

[Bodog]

Guys, why are some making insulting remarks about the intelligence level of end users? 99% of this thread has not been an assault against Sal or Spyderco, not real sure why this thread turned nasty towards people who want to take apart an object that they own.

The issue is not people wanting to take apart something they own. That's their right, just as it would be their right to put something the own on the ground and hit it with a sledgehammer. The issue is with people who are not "mechanically competent" enough to take something apart, do so anyway, damage the item, then blame the manufacturer.

2) The people that want to perform maintenance or customization of their knife are still going to do so if there is red loctite being used. It's not like they are going to put the torx driver in the screw, try to turn it, hit resistance, and then set their tools down and say "oh well, I guess I'll go shovel snow instead."

The mechanically competent ones will put down their torx driver, go fetch a small hammer and try tapping the screw. If hey still hit resistance, they'll pause again, grab a soldering pencil, heat the screw, and try once more, and succeed. The mechanically incompetent ones will refuse to be defeated by a tiny little screw and use brute force, with predictable results. Even that's fine, if they say "Oops, I really messed up", but this thread would not exist if they did that, now would it.

Deacon, I respect you and appreciate your input and participation on these forums. We've been around here a pretty long while now.

I think this thread would still be here because as I said in a previous post, I used the exact same techniques and exact same tools, but due to a recent change, I had vastly different results. I consider myself both intelligent and mechanically competent and managed to strip out the head of a screw.

This occurred due to one of three scenarios:

1) My competency level has fallen (possible, but I'm only 45).

2) Spyderco is using a stronger threadlocker product.

Or

3) Spyderco is using lower grade, softer fasteners.


While I accept full responsibility for #1, many other competent people are experiencing similar issues, which leads me to believe it comes down to #2 or #3.

Does that mean everyone will strip a screw? Nope. Does it mean some people should not take apart their knives? Maybe, but again Spyderco does not have to repair a knife that has been taken apart and no matter what color the product is, those people are still going to take their knives apart.

Why do other manufacturers in the same price range and class have little worry about their knives being taken apart? Why do they still warranty their products regardless if the knife has been taken apart? Why do some manufacturers provide tools to take the knife apart without fear of being sued? Why do other manufacturers trust that the majority of customers aren't total idiots and can remove and replace three or four screws in an extremely simple machine? Has any knife manufacturer been successfully sued for NOT putting the equivalent of JB WELD on their screws?

It seems to be a pretty simple answer. If it's pinned then any and all disassembly voids warranties. If screwed together then the knife is warrantied against any defect not caused by disassembly. Seems really simple. You take it apart and can't figure out how to put it back together? That's a defect caused by disassembly.

There's no excuse for leaving soft screws, half sized bit holes, or permanent thread locker on a pocket knife. If it was that complex or delicate or individually fitted it should've been pinned to begin with.

[ChrisinHove]

I'm unconvinced. People modify their pinned SAKs. Furthermore, Spyderco's policy on disassembly has always been clear: Their knives aren't intended to be user serviceable.

[Bodog]

I'm unconvinced. People modify their pinned SAKs. Furthermore, Spyderco's policy on disassembly has always been clear: Their knives aren't intended to be user serviceable.

This is all based on the premise that I'm a fan and I know it's not my company but want spyderco to meet or exceed what other companies are doing.


Warranty used to say damage caused by disassembly. No one is talking about modification causing damage. People are talking about inspection, cleaning, oiling, and polishing washers and other simple things. If a knife has a delicate lock or some springs inside that are truly best serviced by Spyderco then include a warranty exemption card with the knife or pin the knife and say the warranty doesn't apply to pinned knives if disassembly is attempted.

If you take a knife apart and use a dremel tool to grind out the lock ramp so it locks up deeper and end up screwing the knife up I don't think anyone would say a warranty covering that damage applies. If you swap out the scales and lose the screws no one, I don't believe, would think a warranty should apply. If you break the blade because you pried something with it, I don't think a warranty should apply.

If you flip open a knife with an internal stop pin and hear a ting from inside and take it apart to see what the sound was and see the tang cracked at a weak point, the warranty should still apply. If your knife opens like crap and there are what appears to be plastic shreds inside the knife and take it apart to find shredded Teflon washers the warranty should still apply. If the blade cracks through the Spydie hole on a knife with tool or carbon steel and you've taken it apart to remove rust from the pivot area and keep it free from corrosion causing debris, the warranty should still apply. If you accidentally break the tip off and grind the blade to repair it and 3 months later the ball bearing lock falls apart the warranty should still apply. And we as customers shouldn't really need to question that.

Damage caused by disassembly or modification. Or how about a warranty that says any manufacturer defect will be covered no matter what you've done to the knife and spyderco reserves the right to inspect before repair. Simple. Everybody wins. People get a good, common sense warranty, spyderco gets to look at the knife and determine if the damage was the fault of the customer, people don't need to worry about red loctite, and Spyderco can keep on pleasing their customers.

And on the warranty page state the customer can do what they want and if it's found that they caused the damage to the knife spyderco can do what they can to fix it and the work will be billed at an hourly rate of say $20 plus the cost of parts.

I can say that in my opinion Spyderco has not produced a knife that shouldn't be able to be taken apart with the exception of knives with springs in them. None of them are that complex or should be that delicate and it's really hard to see people defending that. We're not talking about watches with traditional movements here. We're talking about some of the simplest tools ever made.

[The Deacon]

I'm unconvinced. People modify their pinned SAKs. Furthermore, Spyderco's policy on disassembly has always been clear: Their knives aren't intended to be user serviceable.

Warranty used to say damage caused by disassembly

The problem is that, at least for some issues, disassembly makes it impossible to tell whether it's a warranty issue or not. Most obvious would be complaints of a missing washer. If the knife shows signs of disassembly, how is Spyderco suppose to tell if it never there or if the owner lost it.

Deacon, I respect you and appreciate your input and participation on these forums. We've been around here a pretty long while now.

I think this thread would still be here because as I said in a previous post, I used the exact same techniques and exact same tools, but due to a recent change, I had vastly different results. I consider myself both intelligent and mechanically competent and managed to strip out the head of a screw.

This occurred due to one of three scenarios:

1) My competency level has fallen (possible, but I'm only 45).

2) Spyderco is using a stronger threadlocker product.

Or

3) Spyderco is using lower grade, softer fasteners.


While I accept full responsibility for #1, many other competent people are experiencing similar issues, which leads me to believe it comes down to #2 or #3.

Does that mean everyone will strip a screw? Nope. Does it mean some people should not take apart their knives? Maybe, but again Spyderco does not have to repair a knife that has been taken apart and no matter what color the product is, those people are still going to take their knives apart.

I'll admit, my views on this are heavily colored by three things.

1. Having worked in, and at one point owning a gun shop and seeing how badly otherwise intelligent but mechanically moronic customers managed to bugger up gun screws. Also came to realize that there's no correlation between how much someone can afford to spend on their toys and their ability to maintain them.

2. Having similar experience years later when, as a "hobby business" I repaired and painted HO and N scale locomotives and custom painted and lettered HO and N scale rolling stock. Want to have some real fun, try removing a 0-80 brass screw that's been "thread locked" with lacquer without damaging it.

3. I use to be mechanically competent enough to do those things, now I keep a supply of spare valve stem caps as I sometimes mess one or more of them up when putting air in my tires.

If a fastener does not move when you apply the usual amount of torque, you have two choices. Apply more torque, and risk damaging something, or assume something (rust, galling, thread locker, stronger thread locker) is the culprit and try to "unfreeze" the fastener. Depending on the situation, a tap with a hammer, a drop or two of Marvel Mystery Oil, or the application of heat, will almost always allow you to remove the fastener without damage.

Which is why I'd add a 4th scenario to your list. Namely, that Spyderco is using a stronger thread locker and that your response to that was to become impatient and apply more torque.

[Bodog]

Warranty used to say damage caused by disassembly

The problem is that, at least for some issues, disassembly makes it impossible to tell whether it's a warranty issue or not. Most obvious would be complaints of a missing washer. If the knife shows signs of disassembly, how is Spyderco suppose to tell if it never there or if the owner lost it.

Are so many people requesting so many washers it's become an issue? Do washers now cost more than $.01? I don't know, maybe they do. Have there been so many specific times people have received knives without washers that it's hard to tell if it came from the factory without one or if one got lost after disassembly? There are a lot of companies out there that allow their knives to be opened and I haven't heard of some massive amount of people losing washers. Screws, yes. Washers, no. I'm pretty sure knives aren't being shipped without screws though.

[The Deacon]

Are so many people requesting so many washers it's become an issue? Do washers now cost more than $.01? I don't know, maybe they do. Have there been so many specific times people have received knives without washers that it's hard to tell if it came from the factory without one or if one got lost after disassembly? There are a lot of companies out there that allow their knives to be opened and I haven't heard of some massive amount of people losing washers. Screws, yes. Washers, no. I'm pretty sure knives aren't being shipped without screws though.

Guess you missed my point, which was simply that it becomes impossible for W&R to tell if some issues are valid warranty issues or not, once a knife has been taken apart by an amateur.

The washer issue was only meant as one example of something folks will return a knife to the factory claiming "it came that way". Sure, there's a chance it did, as Sal often says "pobody's nerfect". But, if the knife shows signs of disassembly there's an equal or greater chance the missing washer was lost by the owner. Plus, AFAIK, Spyderco will send a new washer to anyone who admits they lost or damaged the original one.

Another would be lockup issues. How is the factory to tell whether or not the knife originally locked up properly once it's been taken apart by the purchaser?

[curlyhairedboy]

Perhaps a good compromise would be to leave the policy as-is, using the red locktite and existing warranty language. Stay with me...

I would hope that most spyderco enthusiasts willing to take apart or modify their knives are already engaged with Spyderco through this forum.

Why not make a pinned announcement on this forum with Spyderco's in-house methods for dealing with red locktite during their W&R service? It could detail preferred tools (or tool brand) and how long to heat the screws, directly or indirectly, whatever information is needed.

This way, the average spyderco consumer gets a knife that's even more reliable, and the enthusiasts get at least a road map on how to deal with the red loctite the right way.

[Liquid Cobra]

Why not just use blue instead of red? Still locks things up, but is easier to overcome should the user want to.

[Bodog]

Are so many people requesting so many washers it's become an issue? Do washers now cost more than $.01? I don't know, maybe they do. Have there been so many specific times people have received knives without washers that it's hard to tell if it came from the factory without one or if one got lost after disassembly? There are a lot of companies out there that allow their knives to be opened and I haven't heard of some massive amount of people losing washers. Screws, yes. Washers, no. I'm pretty sure knives aren't being shipped without screws though.

Guess you missed my point, which was simply that it becomes impossible for W&R to tell if some issues are valid warranty issues or not, once a knife has been taken apart by an amateur.

The washer issue was only meant as one example of something folks will return a knife to the factory claiming "it came that way". Sure, there's a chance it did, as Sal often says "pobody's nerfect". But, if the knife shows signs of disassembly there's an equal or greater chance the missing washer was lost by the owner. Plus, AFAIK, Spyderco will send a new washer to anyone who admits they lost or damaged the original one.

Another would be lockup issues. How is the factory to tell whether or not the knife originally locked up properly once it's been taken apart by the purchaser?

And with all due respect you missed mine. These other big name manufacturers don't seem to have many problems with customers taking their knives apart except for springs. If they did I'm sure they'd say stop taking knives apart. I think the warranty as is is a solution to a problem that a lot of other people don't seem to have. The question is why these other manufacturers don't have the problems. Are spyderco customers more apt to do dumb stuff? Are spyderco knives failing often enough to make people tear them apart despite the warranty concerns? Are the pieces like screws and springs and whatnot made better by other people and don't fail as easily? Are these other manufacturers raising the price by $5 at the initial offering to cover replacement screws and washers? Or is the problem fairly non-existent for most people and the few people who lose a screw or washer not enough for them to genuinely worry about?

There's a reason these other companies could care less about the knives being taken apart and spyderco does care. Answering that question would help people make an informed decision. Quite a few people would be willing to spend $120 instead of $115 on a PM2 if it meant they'd be covered if they took it apart and didn't damage it themselves.

[wrdwrght]

Why not just use blue instead of red? Still locks things up, but is easier to overcome should the user want to.

Indeed. Until this thread started, I thought it was the case. Now I can't bring myself to get a Para3...

[Sharp Guy]

Why not just use blue instead of red? Still locks things up, but is easier to overcome should the user want to.

Using blue makes more sense to me.

[Angryvet73]

Has Spyderco responded to this issue ?I have to return my Para-3,stripped screw second day of ownership, I was curious on how my knife stacked up regarding this issue, I sure found out quick. :mad: :mad: :mad:

[Zatx]

Has Spyderco responded to this issue ?I have to return my Para-3,stripped screw second day of ownership, I was curious on how my knife stacked up regarding this issue, I sure found out quick. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Yes. One or two pages back.

[Evil D]

It's kind of sad when the complaining has buried the response to the complaining to the point that the complaining doesn't stop.


Guys at this point you are all well past beating a dead horse. You've all made your respective points. At this point you guys are just arguing to be right and honestly I think as a community we're above this crap. Let this thread die until Sal chimes in with further details. Otherwise you guys are just pissing into the wind.

[NickShabazz]

FWIW, TazKristi and I took not of this thread a while back and brought it up for discussion with Spyderco's Management Team. We asked for guidance to post a response, but Sal said that he would rather do that personally. I have tremendous respect for that, and for him.

...

Trust me, there's a lot of discussion going on behind the scenes here. Spyderco does not take this issue lightly, but like anything really important, smart decisions take time.

^^^ This is the key thing ^^^, Sal has responded and Michael is deeply involved at SpydieHQ too. They know.

I feel as strongly about this as anybody here, but I'm with Evil (uh oh), we have what we wanted at this point. They're on it. Spyderco will need time to ponder the best way to resolve this for them and for their customers. If we haven't heard anything in months, then it's worth concern. But for now, attempting to force the issue will be counterproductive on all sides. So, I'm going to go back to actually using my Spydercos, so they get dirty enough for me to actually need to disassemble them. :)

[Parkeralto]

I can report that a my new Advocate, which arrived in late January, was assembled with Blue Locktite. Because of the bearing issue, I was busy voiding the warranty before the mailman cleared the driveway. It came apart with firm but not excessive torque. I am one of those who like to tinker and am comfortable with taking responsibility for what happens. Hopefully the Blue will become standard and the tinkerers among us can at least get the knives apart without resorting to heat guns or soldering irons.