What really is hard use?

[kiwisailor]

Agreed Evil D, however "You can also break any folder if you beat on it the WRONG way"

[ShawnKirkpatrick21]

So are the push cutting with the knee like I described earlier hard on a folder?

[Bloke]

So are the push cutting with the knee like I described earlier hard on a folder?

It's something I'd likely do with a hatchet or a fixed blade bushie. If I only had a PM2 and it was something that had to be done and I wanted to do it, I'd use it!

The edge is usually, but not always, what fails first from hard use and abuse. You said your knife still cut phone book paper afterwards and that leads me to believe you're being hard, but not abusing your knife. I'm sure some will disagree, but I reckon Tarzan couldn't break a PM2 pushing it with his knee, but I'm not sure. :confused:

Either way, a cheap hatchet may save you some heartache down the track. :)

[bearfacedkiller]

So are the push cutting with the knee like I described earlier hard on a folder?

No, I don't think so. As long as you were not applying lateral forces you are fine. When trying to carve hard and remove a lot of material some people will get the cut in deep and then sort of twist or pop the chips out. If you do that all the time or do it really forcefully it can wear on the knife or even cause damage. If you were just bracing the knife against your knee and pulling the wood straight back then you were not applying any lateral forces. When forceful cutting in a straight line you are really just applying force from the tang to the stop pin and that should be plenty sturdy. I cosider what you were doing to be well within the scope of work you can expect from a Para2.

[ChrisinHove]

I think they call it "mechanical sympathy", where you have or develop a feel for the device or tool you're working on, or with. Like how much torque on a wrench or driver, how lightly to scrape a mating surface, etc, etc. It's the same with blades, isn't it? If it feels wrong, go get another tool, or learn from your mistakes!

[Evil D]

The problem is marketing. It's the same as when a car is marketed as being fast/powerful, people are more likely to drive it harder than a Prius. When a maker brags about how bomb proof their product is, people get an unrealistic expectation of what that product can handle, because that same maker doesn't include the limits of their product. You never see "the Billy Badass model folder is so tough you can hammer it through a car door, BUT don't try to pry a bank vault door open or you might break it". So, it gets left up to the user to find the limits, and they're more prone to push a product to that limit because of the marketing.

Think about the classic Swiss army knife. They were given to military personnel, who used them for all manner of things but I bet prying doors open and cutting doors off cars weren't something they used their pocket knife for. At some point the idea of a pocket knife that could be used for non pocket knife jobs came about, and then the Internet took over from there.

[ShawnKirkpatrick21]

Thanks everybody for clearing that up. I just didn't want to ruin a really good knife. Thanks!

[Skaaphaas]

Thanks SK for starting this thread, feel like I learnt a lot.

I think the knife I use the hardest is my Mora Bushcraft fixed blade.

Today I used it "lightly", cutting up a chicken I braaiied last night, to make chicken mayo from for tomorrow's lunch boxes. During the process I cut onto the plate a few times, and realised afterward that this dulled the edge considerably.

I'm hoping it strops back to sharpness, this blade really responds well to stropping.

[JD Spydo]

For me, "hard use" would be using a knife for its intended purposes to the point that my hand starts to feel fatigue, or the edge starts to dull and need resharpening. A good "hard use" knife will help offset those two phenomena.

You are well within the realm of "hard use" when you are using your knife to perform work other than what a knife is really intended for... and "abuse" begins as the risk of damage begins.

I think that Brother Clovisc has stolen my thunder to a large degree on this subject>> but he put it very succinctly in such a short definition of what most of us "knife people" would refer to as "hard use". Actually if your knife doesn't at least need touching up or at least a good fine tuning on your sharpening equipment then I really don't think you can say that you knife was subjected to "hard use".

I got my own lesson on the subject of "hard use" about 7 years ago while I was working in an automotive mod shop>> I had a modification job put in front of me that I figured was literally going to destroy a knife that I would elect to use on that particular job. So I went to my footlocker and got out a used Spyderco knife that I had for about 3 years and never up to that point had ever used it. It was a 440V, SE Native model and much to my most pleasant surprise it not only survived the brutal job I subjected it to but it really didn't do any significant damage other than a real monster of a sharpening job :rolleyes: >> because I'm here to tell any of you who haven't ever sharpened 440V that is it one of the top 3 hardest blade steels I've ever sharpened>> either in plain edge or Spyderedge. Sharpening 440V is truly a form or cruel and unusual punishment IMO :eek:

Even since then I've designated my 440V, SE Native and an old Chinook model I've had for years as my main 2 "hard use" units. And believe me you want those GOLDEN, CO, USA Earth made units for "hard use" in my most humble opinion. And I base that on actual brutal usage on several occasions since then.

[tripscheck'em]

I've been using my para2 a lot since I've got it. I've enjoyed having it around. I've recently started shaving down some wood to keep in my building in case I want to start a bon fire. So I've shaved down 2 construction stakes. Probably about 2 1/2 feet and 1X2 stakes. The thing that got me thinking was, I just wasnt making feather sticks from it. Mostly I was placing the knife against my knee and pull the wood into the knife making big long shavings. There is no blade play (besides side to side because I keep it swinging freely) but I didn't know if maybe it would cause future damage? It did an outstanding job and still cut phonebook paper after. I just don't want to "abuse" it or push it over its limits.

If you ever get blade play, you can open the knife and re-tighten the pivot, and then seal the pivot when you're putting it back with some loctite, you'll be good to go. That's what Spyderco does at their factories, they use loctite or some other variant of super-glue to seal the pivot.

"Hard use" is not babying the knife. It means you'll saw through a piece of sheet-rock and not worry about it. Just cut stuff and don't worry if you're pressing too hard, putting too much lateral pressure or bumping into concrete or metal, let it rip. That's the only way you'll enjoy your knife and see the real effects of the steel. Otherwise you'll be stepping on egg shells forever.

[Cujobob]

The best way to choose a knife is to look at how you're realistically going to use it and then match those needs to a knife that will perform them best. For opening up small packages, food prep, envelopes and boxes, a thinly ground knife with a pointy edge comes in handy. These are cutting tools, if you're not using them for that purpose, you cannot hold the knife responsible for any damage that MAY occur.

With that said, Spyderco puts a lot of work into making sure their knives won't fail. If a framelock doesn't have a thick lockbar, they put a replaceable steel insert. The CBBL is very durable. The compression lock uses steel, not titanium, for its lock and it too is strong.

All of those are more than strong enough for self defense and cutting tasks. Batoning is a unique way of applying pressure and depending on the knife (how thin it's ground, lock type, thickness of blade stock, etc) it may or may not take damage. Prying should not be done with a knife designed with cutting in mind. Thin grinds allow a knife to slice far better, but it means there can be a weakness when force comes from the side. Anyone can make a knife that can pry, but ultimately it would not be a very good knife. Get yourself a keychain tool if you have a need for prying in daily tasks.

[Cujobob]

So what really are we buying these top of the line steels for? I understand opening packages and light duty edc. But some don't like the though of hard use on spydercos. I don't mind using mine in the "hard use" category, I just don't want it wearing my lock up or any other important factors of the knife.

Steels balance certain traits and they do different things well. If you want maximum sharpness, low carbide steels are going to be for you. If you want maximum wear resistance, well there are high carbide steels. If you want as much toughness as possible, steels like 3V and Cruwear are good options. If you want a combination of traits to match how often you like to sharpen, get the maximum sharpness you can obtain but also have good wear resistance... there a lot of 'mid-tier' steels to choose from.

If you want more of one thing, you generally have to give up something else. That's why so many high end steels. You're getting better performance in certain areas but you may notice it.