Hi all. I live in New Zealand, MBC in not something that we see or hear about over here, and I have not heard of anyone teaching it.
I’ve done a little martial arts in the past, and have enjoyed it and having an interest in knifes, I keen to learn more.
On a practical side I know that the most likely weapon I will ever face over here is a knife. Knowing more = safer in my books. I’m guessing understanding some MBC (of whatever style) would be good for me if I ever faced a not so fun situation where running was not an option.
Can someone suggest a good place to start?
Cheers,
Ian
Where does one start?
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fifthprofession47
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fifthprofession47
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hollowaysos
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Ian:
I am going to be in Christchurch NZ in December, I have been thru Mike Janich's MBC level's 1-4 7 times. E-mail me at hollowaysos@aol.com and maybe I can be of some help...Dave
I am going to be in Christchurch NZ in December, I have been thru Mike Janich's MBC level's 1-4 7 times. E-mail me at hollowaysos@aol.com and maybe I can be of some help...Dave
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Joe Talmadge
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If you are ever faced with a knife, there's a good chance that you won't have pulled you knife already. After all, someone who wants to knife you isn't going to pull his knife out from 10 feet away, then wait until your knife is out, then come after you. He'll start up close, and it's likely you'll have to defend empty-hands until you take him out, or make enough time and space to run, or pull your own knife.
Given that, I'm starting to think that one of the best answers to "where should I start", to get a quick jumpstart on <b>practical </b> knife defense, is here:
http://www.centerlinegym.com/gym_gear.htm
What you're looking for are the Redzone empty hand knife defense videos, the best I've seen so far. At the top of that page, there's a special for both DVDs. As a bonus, he shows some techniques often taught in classes, but that work during flow type drills but not under criminal assault type pressure, good to take note of.
Given the realities of knfie defense, I think empty hand knfie defense is a good place to start. Unfortunately, you really can't get any of this unless you practice it realistically with a partner -- you really do want to feel the power and forward pressure of someone trying to really stab you, get the timing right, see when you can just pull out of your grip and when you have him, etc. It's also the most tiring training going; I can spar for a while these days, but I'm sucking wind after two minutes of empty-hand-vs-knife!
THEN, for a lower-probability occurrence but still well-worth studying, you can start looking at what to do when the knife is in your hand (instead of the other guy's, or in addition to the other guy's). If it's MBC you like, Mike Janich's site, listed above, is the place to go!
Edited by - Joe Talmadge on 7/31/2004 6:24:54 PM
Given that, I'm starting to think that one of the best answers to "where should I start", to get a quick jumpstart on <b>practical </b> knife defense, is here:
http://www.centerlinegym.com/gym_gear.htm
What you're looking for are the Redzone empty hand knife defense videos, the best I've seen so far. At the top of that page, there's a special for both DVDs. As a bonus, he shows some techniques often taught in classes, but that work during flow type drills but not under criminal assault type pressure, good to take note of.
Given the realities of knfie defense, I think empty hand knfie defense is a good place to start. Unfortunately, you really can't get any of this unless you practice it realistically with a partner -- you really do want to feel the power and forward pressure of someone trying to really stab you, get the timing right, see when you can just pull out of your grip and when you have him, etc. It's also the most tiring training going; I can spar for a while these days, but I'm sucking wind after two minutes of empty-hand-vs-knife!
THEN, for a lower-probability occurrence but still well-worth studying, you can start looking at what to do when the knife is in your hand (instead of the other guy's, or in addition to the other guy's). If it's MBC you like, Mike Janich's site, listed above, is the place to go!
Edited by - Joe Talmadge on 7/31/2004 6:24:54 PM
I would suggest some grounding in knife fighting before studying unarmed defense against the knife.
Everyone's personal experience is different, but early on I learned some really neat knife defenses that worked great on classmates, and I was confident right up until the time I tried them on an escrimador. I came to some conclusions:
1) The dude has a knife because it gives him a really big advantage.
2) If you are experiencing an embarrassing temporary lack of a firearm, the best way to level the playing field is to deploy your own knife.
3) If one is forced to use empty hands against a knife, understanding knife fighting is critical to defending against a knife.
If the fellow with the knife is not trained, or poorly trained, or drunk, some of the above may not apply. This is an important caveat, because well trained knife fighters are few and far between.
Mr. Janich's videos show rapid deployment of knives, and he discusses what knife specific features, like clip placement, contribute to getting the knife into action quickly. The short answer to a properly designed carry knife is Yojimbo.
His web site shows a class in counter-bladecraft, which comes after -- as I believe it should -- his knife classes, so as to benefit from understanding the capabilities of the weapon. In this, he follows the long established escrima tradition of teaching weapons before teaching empty hands.
Qship
Everyone's personal experience is different, but early on I learned some really neat knife defenses that worked great on classmates, and I was confident right up until the time I tried them on an escrimador. I came to some conclusions:
1) The dude has a knife because it gives him a really big advantage.
2) If you are experiencing an embarrassing temporary lack of a firearm, the best way to level the playing field is to deploy your own knife.
3) If one is forced to use empty hands against a knife, understanding knife fighting is critical to defending against a knife.
If the fellow with the knife is not trained, or poorly trained, or drunk, some of the above may not apply. This is an important caveat, because well trained knife fighters are few and far between.
Mr. Janich's videos show rapid deployment of knives, and he discusses what knife specific features, like clip placement, contribute to getting the knife into action quickly. The short answer to a properly designed carry knife is Yojimbo.
His web site shows a class in counter-bladecraft, which comes after -- as I believe it should -- his knife classes, so as to benefit from understanding the capabilities of the weapon. In this, he follows the long established escrima tradition of teaching weapons before teaching empty hands.
Qship
Hi QShip, thanks for you reply. I agree with what you are saying. Understanding how to use a weapon makes it easier to understand how to avoid or counter that weapon. This is one of my main practical reasons for wanting to learn more about MBC.
I think that both Mike's and Centerlinegym videos will appear on my shopping list rather soon.
Ian
I think that both Mike's and Centerlinegym videos will appear on my shopping list rather soon.
Ian
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Joe Talmadge
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While there's nothing Qship said that will lead you particularly astray (certainly, getting knife training is a good idea, period), I will disagree with some of the priorities here. For example:
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade> I was confident right up until the time I tried them on an escrimador. <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
If the probability is small of ever getting in a knife confrontation, it's nearly infinitesimal of getting in a knife confrontation with a trained escrimador! If the person you face has any "training" at all, it will be more street/prison style.
In fact, depending on the FMA style, I feel that training against a flowing escrima style can be counterproductive ... again, as you'll see on the Redzone tapes, many techniques that work against it, do not work against the more direct, explosive, assaultive prison style, especially when accompanied by forward drive.
In fact, I've found that that prison style, when done correctly, is one of the MOST DIFFICULT things to defend against.
So, no matter what, I'd say pick up the Redzone tapes right away -- it will quickly give you insight into which standard FMA techniques that you'll be learning, do not work well against a more direct, assaultive attack.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade>
1) The dude has a knife because it gives him a really big advantage.
2) If you are experiencing an embarrassing temporary lack of a firearm, the best way to level the playing field is to deploy your own knife.
3) If one is forced to use empty hands against a knife, understanding knife fighting is critical to defending against a knife. <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
#1 and #2 are harder to argue with. #3 is a big issue -- I would claim that in a FMA class, you ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT learning how a street criminal uses a knife. You're learning how a FMAer uses a knife. The styles and strategies are so different, that it's of key importance to keep the end goal (surviving a street assault) in mind. FMAers are very formidable, but so are people who learn the knife in prison or in gangs. You can definitely learn practical empty-hand-versus-knife before learning FMA, because in a typical FMA class you won't be facing a guy who comes at you with a street style anyway. Not that taking a FMA class would hurt -- it's just that you're fooling yourself if you think that's what a knife-wielder will look like on the street.
Again, pick up the Redzone tapes. For a $60 investment, you can get some key insight into empty-hand-versus-knife, even before you step into a FMA class.
Joe
Edited by - Joe Talmadge on 8/2/2004 10:48:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade> I was confident right up until the time I tried them on an escrimador. <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
If the probability is small of ever getting in a knife confrontation, it's nearly infinitesimal of getting in a knife confrontation with a trained escrimador! If the person you face has any "training" at all, it will be more street/prison style.
In fact, depending on the FMA style, I feel that training against a flowing escrima style can be counterproductive ... again, as you'll see on the Redzone tapes, many techniques that work against it, do not work against the more direct, explosive, assaultive prison style, especially when accompanied by forward drive.
In fact, I've found that that prison style, when done correctly, is one of the MOST DIFFICULT things to defend against.
So, no matter what, I'd say pick up the Redzone tapes right away -- it will quickly give you insight into which standard FMA techniques that you'll be learning, do not work well against a more direct, assaultive attack.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size=1 face=arial>quote:<hr height=1 noshade>
1) The dude has a knife because it gives him a really big advantage.
2) If you are experiencing an embarrassing temporary lack of a firearm, the best way to level the playing field is to deploy your own knife.
3) If one is forced to use empty hands against a knife, understanding knife fighting is critical to defending against a knife. <hr height=1 noshade></BLOCKQUOTE></font><font face='Verdana, Arial, Helvetica' size=2>
#1 and #2 are harder to argue with. #3 is a big issue -- I would claim that in a FMA class, you ARE ABSOLUTELY NOT learning how a street criminal uses a knife. You're learning how a FMAer uses a knife. The styles and strategies are so different, that it's of key importance to keep the end goal (surviving a street assault) in mind. FMAers are very formidable, but so are people who learn the knife in prison or in gangs. You can definitely learn practical empty-hand-versus-knife before learning FMA, because in a typical FMA class you won't be facing a guy who comes at you with a street style anyway. Not that taking a FMA class would hurt -- it's just that you're fooling yourself if you think that's what a knife-wielder will look like on the street.
Again, pick up the Redzone tapes. For a $60 investment, you can get some key insight into empty-hand-versus-knife, even before you step into a FMA class.
Joe
Edited by - Joe Talmadge on 8/2/2004 10:48:15 AM
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Mr Blonde
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There's so much out there, that I would recommend first to read everything you can from and about the various knife instructors: James Keating, Michael Janich, Bram Frank etc... Then focus on the one that matches your personality and outlook on knife combatives the most. Once you have established the credibility of an instructor I found it helps when they match your personality as well. It helps the learning process. I believe most anything works, if it is executed with proper dedication. Therefore try to find an MBC curruculum that suits your tastes. For example, there are instructors out there who strongly believe in 'defanging the snake', and those that believe in 'desnaking the fang'. Both philosophies work, but which do you like best?
Wouter
Spyderco photos and reviews at: <a href= http://www.geocities.com/mrblonde50>Mr Blonde’s Blog</a>
Wouter
Spyderco photos and reviews at: <a href= http://www.geocities.com/mrblonde50>Mr Blonde’s Blog</a>
I agree with Joe that prison knife techniques are difficult, and different.
This is often because prison weapons tend to be atypical in that they are often just pointed, with no real edge, or bits of metal sharpened and attached to a handle.
Common techniques involve rapid eye strikes to distract, while pumping the weapon toward the opponent's stomach, or using the weapon in reverse grip to stab down, perhaps stabbing a block, or hooking the block to clear it. Quick, multiple strikes, sometimes combined with rushing, are the rule. Another common variation involves palming the knife behind the wrist in reverse grip, to hide the weapon, and slashing. If the knife has a point, the slash may be followed by a stab as the weapon returns. More difficult to defend against is the pass by, where the opponent uses a knife in reverse grip to stab you in the kidney area as he walks by you.
I guess some knife instructors only teach traditional escrima techniques, but others do not limit themselves. They know street technique as well as anyone.
If my early training partners had been proficient with a knife, I would, I think, have either refined my moves so they would work, or at least recognized that my skill level was illusionary. It seems to me that if you are going to practice defending against street techniques, you need to practice with someone who can execute those techniques well. And, to reciprocate, you should be equally skilled. Which comes down to learning some knife skills up front.
Eventually, practice can turn into counter-for-counter, which improves both empty hand and knife skills.
For the sake of discussion, one reason I prefer deploying a blade as quickly as possible is that some of these lads are chemically enhanced with all manner of street drugs. The last time I was on jury duty, a gentleman who was brought in front of a judge managed to snap the chain on standard police handcuffs. It took the coordinated effort of a good number of beefy LEOs to restore order.
But, as Joe says, you have to start somewhere, and you need to go with what is available. And the tapes sound better than most.
Interesting discussion.
Qship
This is often because prison weapons tend to be atypical in that they are often just pointed, with no real edge, or bits of metal sharpened and attached to a handle.
Common techniques involve rapid eye strikes to distract, while pumping the weapon toward the opponent's stomach, or using the weapon in reverse grip to stab down, perhaps stabbing a block, or hooking the block to clear it. Quick, multiple strikes, sometimes combined with rushing, are the rule. Another common variation involves palming the knife behind the wrist in reverse grip, to hide the weapon, and slashing. If the knife has a point, the slash may be followed by a stab as the weapon returns. More difficult to defend against is the pass by, where the opponent uses a knife in reverse grip to stab you in the kidney area as he walks by you.
I guess some knife instructors only teach traditional escrima techniques, but others do not limit themselves. They know street technique as well as anyone.
If my early training partners had been proficient with a knife, I would, I think, have either refined my moves so they would work, or at least recognized that my skill level was illusionary. It seems to me that if you are going to practice defending against street techniques, you need to practice with someone who can execute those techniques well. And, to reciprocate, you should be equally skilled. Which comes down to learning some knife skills up front.
Eventually, practice can turn into counter-for-counter, which improves both empty hand and knife skills.
For the sake of discussion, one reason I prefer deploying a blade as quickly as possible is that some of these lads are chemically enhanced with all manner of street drugs. The last time I was on jury duty, a gentleman who was brought in front of a judge managed to snap the chain on standard police handcuffs. It took the coordinated effort of a good number of beefy LEOs to restore order.
But, as Joe says, you have to start somewhere, and you need to go with what is available. And the tapes sound better than most.
Interesting discussion.
Qship
Aloha guys,
Joe is correct. The "jailhouse rock" is an attack of pure andrenaline. It happens FAST, and HARD. I have experienced a few of these, and my training has been revised somewhat after entering the CO scene.
I got into my share of street fights growing up, but I too, for a time, got caught up in the illusion of some MA techniques. I appreciate the basics I have learned from my MA training, but had to revamp their application in the "real world".
When it hits the fan, the simpler the technique to me, the better. Normally, you just don't have the time to initiate all the "finer" techniques unless you have either distracted or stunned the attacker. Also, the simpler the technique, the more easier of a time it has to ingrain itself into the nervous system. As Bruce "no lastname necessarry" said, "If you think, you will LOSE".
Great comments guys, and I'm glad that you recognize the effectiveness of something as simple as the Prison Charge, Joe.
God bless guys, and train smart, and safe.
Proverbs 16:3...Commit YOUR works to the LORD, and YOUR plans WILL succeed!
Joe is correct. The "jailhouse rock" is an attack of pure andrenaline. It happens FAST, and HARD. I have experienced a few of these, and my training has been revised somewhat after entering the CO scene.
I got into my share of street fights growing up, but I too, for a time, got caught up in the illusion of some MA techniques. I appreciate the basics I have learned from my MA training, but had to revamp their application in the "real world".
When it hits the fan, the simpler the technique to me, the better. Normally, you just don't have the time to initiate all the "finer" techniques unless you have either distracted or stunned the attacker. Also, the simpler the technique, the more easier of a time it has to ingrain itself into the nervous system. As Bruce "no lastname necessarry" said, "If you think, you will LOSE".
Great comments guys, and I'm glad that you recognize the effectiveness of something as simple as the Prison Charge, Joe.
God bless guys, and train smart, and safe.
Proverbs 16:3...Commit YOUR works to the LORD, and YOUR plans WILL succeed!
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Joe Talmadge
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Qship,
I think our disagreement ends up being on more minor points. We seem to agree that knife training is good, and empty-hands-versus-knife is good to train as well, against both FMA-trained fighters and street/jailhouse type. Our experiences differ somewhat on whether a typical FMA school spends a lot of time training empty-hands-versus-knife against a street-style attack. You're lucky enough to have seen it, I haven't seen as much. More often, it's knife-versus-knife, and when it's knife-versus-empty-hands, the knifer is often attacking in a more FMA style.
I do think, though, that it's possible to get useful empty-hands-versus-knife experience right from the get-go. Even a completely untrained partner will be able to understand, "explosively drive forward, pumping the knife full power with your right hand, and pushing with your left -- if the defender tries to parry your knife with just one hand, and your strike doesn't blast through the parry, you're not striking hard enough". It's better to have an opponent who is better-trained, but the above comes fairly naturally, is difficult to defend, and I'd argue will provide a reasonable foundation.
All that said, no question that the more hands-on training in a FMA class, the better. Just pointing out that you can start doing the most practical skills -- empty-hand-versus-street-knife -- without it. And it's worth picking up the videos to see which defensive techniques that tend to work against a FMA strike don't work against the attacks we're describing ...
I think our disagreement ends up being on more minor points. We seem to agree that knife training is good, and empty-hands-versus-knife is good to train as well, against both FMA-trained fighters and street/jailhouse type. Our experiences differ somewhat on whether a typical FMA school spends a lot of time training empty-hands-versus-knife against a street-style attack. You're lucky enough to have seen it, I haven't seen as much. More often, it's knife-versus-knife, and when it's knife-versus-empty-hands, the knifer is often attacking in a more FMA style.
I do think, though, that it's possible to get useful empty-hands-versus-knife experience right from the get-go. Even a completely untrained partner will be able to understand, "explosively drive forward, pumping the knife full power with your right hand, and pushing with your left -- if the defender tries to parry your knife with just one hand, and your strike doesn't blast through the parry, you're not striking hard enough". It's better to have an opponent who is better-trained, but the above comes fairly naturally, is difficult to defend, and I'd argue will provide a reasonable foundation.
All that said, no question that the more hands-on training in a FMA class, the better. Just pointing out that you can start doing the most practical skills -- empty-hand-versus-street-knife -- without it. And it's worth picking up the videos to see which defensive techniques that tend to work against a FMA strike don't work against the attacks we're describing ...
Joe,
I expect that most of the differences come from the fact that I am no where near as quick as I used to be. I tend to advocate what I think works best for me, and you advocate what works best for you.
I took a look the web page, and saw the illustration of the of hand grab of the knife arm. I am curious where it goes from there. Certainly, I might end up in that position -- but not through choice. I might be able to drag the attacker downward into the dirt, perhaps scraping his hand against some abrasive surface like concrete. Unless my back was against a wall. I might be able to induce him to pull the knife back towards himself, and maybe I could stick him with returning blade. But, he might be able to twist out of my grip enough to cut my flexor tendons and radial arteries. And, I would have both hands tied up, while he had one hand free to beat on my head.
Any other solution I can come up with runs towards joint lock flow and throwing, which is maybe a little advanced for a beginner, so I wonder what happens next in the tape.
Qship
I expect that most of the differences come from the fact that I am no where near as quick as I used to be. I tend to advocate what I think works best for me, and you advocate what works best for you.
I took a look the web page, and saw the illustration of the of hand grab of the knife arm. I am curious where it goes from there. Certainly, I might end up in that position -- but not through choice. I might be able to drag the attacker downward into the dirt, perhaps scraping his hand against some abrasive surface like concrete. Unless my back was against a wall. I might be able to induce him to pull the knife back towards himself, and maybe I could stick him with returning blade. But, he might be able to twist out of my grip enough to cut my flexor tendons and radial arteries. And, I would have both hands tied up, while he had one hand free to beat on my head.
Any other solution I can come up with runs towards joint lock flow and throwing, which is maybe a little advanced for a beginner, so I wonder what happens next in the tape.
Qship
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Joe Talmadge
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Qship: You've motivated me to re-watch the video, I've only been practicing the things that have been working for me, and I've been reminding myself to check out the rest of the moves. From the baseball bat grip, where I start trying to establish forward drive, I've been successful tripping the other guy or otherwise making him stumble for a second, which lets me successfully disengage and run or gives me the time to pull my own knife. I've also been reasonably successful getting the knife hand to touch the ground for just a second, where I'd stomp on the hand and pick the knife up (in practice, I carefully step on the blade of the trainer, which can accomplish the same thing). There's a few other things as well, for example, if I feel the attacker powering out of the baseball bat grip, I can often transition to one hand on the wrist and an underhook, which gives you a bunch of options. But there's more on the tape, and I'd been meaning to go back and check the rest out.
BTW, while I'm really pleased with Redzone, there are other empty-hand-versus-knife systems around that are supposed to be very good (e.g., STAB) and realistic. Pick up a good empty-hand-versus-knife, it doesn't have to be the one I like.
Joe
BTW, while I'm really pleased with Redzone, there are other empty-hand-versus-knife systems around that are supposed to be very good (e.g., STAB) and realistic. Pick up a good empty-hand-versus-knife, it doesn't have to be the one I like.
Joe
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Joe Talmadge
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I just trained this a bit more today. What I concentrated on today was more consciously adding forward drive into my defense. This type of defense is sometimes called "dive and drive", and I realized I haven't been emphasizing the "drive" part enough.
Today, once I got the knife in the baseball bat grip, I tried to start driving the attacker. If you don't do this, one of two things happens: 1) the attacker is weapon-focused, and spends 100% of his attention trying to free his knife, or 2) the attacker is better-trained, and splits his attention between freeing his knife, and using strikes from his free hand & knees. Neither case is especially fun. But once you start driving the attacker backwards or sideways, suddenly he's got something more urgent to worry about. If he didn't pay enough attention to my forward drive, I could grapevine an ankle. And in any case, it became easier to bring his hand to the ground to stomp the knife out, or to transition to wrist&underhook.
Anyway, the lesson: don't forgot to drive the other guy as you work your techniques!
Today, once I got the knife in the baseball bat grip, I tried to start driving the attacker. If you don't do this, one of two things happens: 1) the attacker is weapon-focused, and spends 100% of his attention trying to free his knife, or 2) the attacker is better-trained, and splits his attention between freeing his knife, and using strikes from his free hand & knees. Neither case is especially fun. But once you start driving the attacker backwards or sideways, suddenly he's got something more urgent to worry about. If he didn't pay enough attention to my forward drive, I could grapevine an ankle. And in any case, it became easier to bring his hand to the ground to stomp the knife out, or to transition to wrist&underhook.
Anyway, the lesson: don't forgot to drive the other guy as you work your techniques!