Is there any good reason the Ouroboros is $167?

[dplafoll]

I would say Sal is first and foremost a visionary and great designer.I will stay with Spyderco as long as Sal will keep designing knives.I understand the idea behind colabs and ethnic series but Sal's in-house designs are behind my compulsory need to purchase spydies.Thank you Sal.

I agree with your general idea here, but I would modify it to say "stay with Spyderco as long as the Glessers keep designing knives". I wouldn't want to leave Eric out. :D

[chuck_roxas45]

I don't care if Mr. G doesn't design any more knives as long as he keeps running the show.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

IF Spyderco wanted to do this, and IF it was worth it for them, would this be a good idea?

They could have the SAME KNIFE MODEL made in more than one location, out of different materials:

Example: They could have an Endura made in Golden, Co, using, say, S30V steel, and one made in Taiwan, using 440 Stainless, and one made in Japan, using VG10 steel.
They could have a Tatanka made in China using the materials used to make Byrd knives, along with the present Tatanka. That kind of thing.

Would that be a good economic choice for them or would that create too much complexity and may not be worth it as far as sales goes?

Then IF that could be done, you'd have a situation where you can purchase the SAME BASIC KNIFE PATTERN, just at different levels of economics. It would be interesting. How would a Tatanka made in China from the Byrd materials be vs a Tatanka made in Japan or one made in Golden, be?

[The Deacon]

IF Spyderco wanted to do this, and IF it was worth it for them, would this be a good idea?

They could have the SAME KNIFE MODEL made in more than one location, out of different materials:

Example: They could have an Endura made in Golden, Co, using, say, S30V steel, and one made in Taiwan, using 440 Stainless, and one made in Japan, using VG10 steel.
They could have a Tatanka made in China using the materials used to make Byrd knives, along with the present Tatanka. That kind of thing.

Would that be a good economic choice for them or would that create too much complexity and may not be worth it as far as sales goes?

Then IF that could be done, you'd have a situation where you can purchase the SAME BASIC KNIFE PATTERN, just at different levels of economics. It would be interesting. How would a Tatanka made in China from the Byrd materials be vs a Tatanka made in Japan or one made in Golden, be?

Have you not taken the time to read any of Sal's posts in this thread?

[Fred Sanford]

Hopefully someone is buying all these expensive models because Spyderco has priced themselves out of my reach. I'm not paying $200 or $300 for a knife made in Taiwan or Japan. I'd rather spend $150 or $200 for a knife made in the USA. My money will now go to other companies if I'm going to pay $150+ for a knife.

The Manix 2, Para 2, Military, and Native 5 are great values. Unfortunately everything else seems to be made in Taiwan or Japan and is priced very high. I make good money too.

Let me correct what I am saying. Believe me, I'm not missing out, as I have owned and still do own many Spydies from Taiwan. I agree that they have the best F&F and are some of the best Spydies made. Seki still makes fantastic knives, and the Delica's and Endura's are some of the best. I regularly carry a Pacific Salt which is made in Seki-City. I love the history of Seki-City and the people there as well.

In addition I do think that the CF Chaparral, the Salt line, and many others are great values. I just see more $200+ knives made overseas when I would rather they are made in Golden. I know....I can't always get what I want. (Good old Rolling Stones song too). :)

I guess because I am "forty something" I still have something in me that says if it is made in the USA it's better in my pocket. However, I know this is not true as I have driven Chevy's and Honda's. In all honesty the Honda was a better car. I still have political reasons that I don't like China but that doesn't make a Chinese Spyderco bad. I really need to get that out of my system, but it is just something I grew up with. I mean sure, I'd still rather give money to people in the country that I live in first, but I don't at all think that Spydies in other countries are junk. I just wish (I know....in a perfect world) that more stuff was made in the Golden facility.

I'm going to try to put big ideas into a language that is not mine, so please bear with me if my explanation falls a bit short...

I live in Asia and run a business here. In my sector, you will see two kinds of business, mostly. There are the ones which are quantity-based and will gladly abuse the local workforce to widen their margins, then there are the quality-focused ones, and too often these tend to "give-up" on regional output and import most products from overseas. What this means is there is very little business people left interested in seeking, promoting and paying for local talents. With no incentive to work hard, most are forced in horrid working conditions with no pride for what they produce.

Trust me there are a lot of talented workers in places like Taiwan and China who deserve your dollars. I'm not saying it's a bad thing to prefer buying locally, but I see a lot of hypocrisy in the knife world where people will be very adamant on buying American-made knives, yet not giving a second thought about virtually any other purchase in their everyday lives.

To me, it is companies like Spyderco dealing with developing nations that are making a difference and helping reverse the negative stereotypes associated with this part of the world. They do this by following international standards, promoting fair wages, as well as safe and healthy work conditions. They show the people here that there is an alternative to sweatshops, and that it is actually worth your time to get really good at your craft.

Now this is an extremely complex issue and I'm barely skimming the surface, but to put it simply.. I'm very happy to buy, say, a Taichung Spyderco and know that it helped give a Taiwanese blade smith/metallurgist a good job he can be proud of. IMO, shunning these quality products, especially if still buying the disposable stuff, is sending the message to the developing world that we only need them for their cheap crap sourced from corrupt, unethical factories, and that they need not bother ever trying to hone their skills at anything.

I hope I don't come off as pointing fingers or anything.. just trying to shed a little light on the way things look from this side of the world :o

Well said indeed. I do see hypocrisy too in a lot of things these days. I wouldn't buy a Honda until they were made in the United States. Now I own one. I try very hard to buy what I can that is made in America. I do this because I live here. There are some things that are just not made in the USA so you either have to not buy them or just suck it up and buy it.

I don't see you as pointing fingers or anything at all. What you said was well thought out and I agree with it.

After seeing what Sal has posted in this thread multiple times I get it a little better now. I do own Spyderco products made in Taiwan, USA, Japan, and Italy. I like them all and all are very well made.

I just notice that prices do seem to be continually going up...and sometimes with knives it seems like they are going up faster than other products. I can accept that because the knives we all love are not a necessity. A knife may be, but not having an expensive Spyderco.

This complaint, and this thread are truly first world problems. I realize this and I don't let it get me worked up because it is simply a hobby of mine.

I hope that everything works out for everybody. I truly do learn more every time I visit this forum.

On the pricing issue, it is a problem that we are aware of, but wages and materials in other countries may not be as stagnant as here. They raise their prices pretty regularly. That's why most knife companies have gone to China for their production knives, where the Yuan is very low. Trying to lower price without lowering quality is challenging to be sure.

sal

Thanks so much for always piping in when we have questions. You are seriously one of a kind. Thanks Sal!

[jmh58]

In my way of thinking.. It boils down to.. You control your wallet!! That's all!! :rolleyes: John :)

[bh49]

I don't care if Mr. G doesn't design any more knives as long as he keeps running the show.

And I do not care who is running the show as long as his (hers) last name is Glesser and Sal Glesser is designing more knives. :)
I am just wondering if Spyderco cannot make Caly3 or caly3.5 in Golden, may be Spyderco can make Caly 3.25 in Golden instead?
And now in the order to totally hijack the tread I am wondering where is Shaman? :)

[dplafoll]

IF Spyderco wanted to do this, and IF it was worth it for them, would this be a good idea?

They could have the SAME KNIFE MODEL made in more than one location, out of different materials:

Example: They could have an Endura made in Golden, Co, using, say, S30V steel, and one made in Taiwan, using 440 Stainless, and one made in Japan, using VG10 steel.
They could have a Tatanka made in China using the materials used to make Byrd knives, along with the present Tatanka. That kind of thing.

Would that be a good economic choice for them or would that create too much complexity and may not be worth it as far as sales goes?

Then IF that could be done, you'd have a situation where you can purchase the SAME BASIC KNIFE PATTERN, just at different levels of economics. It would be interesting. How would a Tatanka made in China from the Byrd materials be vs a Tatanka made in Japan or one made in Golden, be?

I don't off the top of my head remember any RIL/Framelock knives from Japan. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. So I'd bet that maker doesn't really do RILs. Taichung has, AFAIK, done ONE lockback, the Chaparral, and it's fairly different in construction from the LBs made in Japan, or the single LB from Golden, the Native. I can continue, but the point is that each maker has strengths and weaknesses in materials, fit and finish/build quality, and the capability to produce certain things. It does no good to have an Endura from Taichung if they don't do LBs, or a Mantra from Japan if they don't do RILs. It also doesn't make any sense to duplicate various molds and jigs between multiple sites. I actually like your idea; if you were making the same products in multiple locations that are each mostly the same, that would work. There isn't going to be much fundamental difference between a US-made Honda, or one made in Japan. But for Spyderco's model of production, I don't think it would be feasible.

[paulwa]

Howdy everyone,
Figured I'd chime in on this so folks stop bothering Sal and Co. on what I accept as a fair and understandable business decision based on all the information and options that were at hand (two big things all of us aren't privy to).

Next time, I'll just design a cheaper knife...

[jabba359]

Next time, I'll just design a cheaper knife...

If you wouldn't mind designing it so it costs only $7 (after tax and shipping), that would be great. Tin foil blade, PVC handle, super glue lock. I'll buy two (need a user and a safe queen, right?). :D

[Tyrdle]

Sal,
Thanks so much for the reply. I've been thinking a lot about this today. If I may, what other considerations follow the second? I know every case is different so there probably isn't a clear answer, but I'd be interested in any insights you can give.

When a maker is at capacity, it means that they cannot make more than the models they are making without dropping some models. Increasing capacity in knife-making is difficult. Training skilled workers, more expensive equipment, etc. Many makers reach a comfortable size and then just seek to fill their capacity each year. That's one of the reasons for discontinuing models. Dropping a slower selling model to make available capacity.

It seems important to me bc of the design potential. What would a pm2 from seki city look like? Or a superleaf made in golden? If the police model were made in Taiwan would it have done/do as well as it has? Or better?

It's kind of an unwritten rule among knife factories that one does not take a model from one factory and give it to another. We've done it a few times but the situation required that. Some large corps won't take on a knife vendor that sticks to one factory / model because if an item is hot and they have many stores, they don't want to deal with limited capacity. We've been turned down by some large corps for not using more than one factory to make the same model. It doesn't seem to be the case with Chinese knife-makers.

sal

NO matter what you think about the price on this one I hope everyone here realizes how crazy it is that someone like Sal and in Sals shoes would choose to educate us and share like this with us. NO other company on Spydercos scale in the knife world does this.

Recognize this for what it is.

Really, I don't think it SHOULD be crazy that Sal talks to us on this forum. This is awesome and I can't imagine leaving Spyderco because of it. If every knife brand communicated like this Spyderco would have some real competition. :D
Thank you Sal!!!!

[PaleMoon]

Well said indeed. I do see hypocrisy too in a lot of things these days. I wouldn't buy a Honda until they were made in the United States. Now I own one. I try very hard to buy what I can that is made in America. I do this because I live here. There are some things that are just not made in the USA so you either have to not buy them or just suck it up and buy it.

I don't see you as pointing fingers or anything at all. What you said was well thought out and I agree with it.

After seeing what Sal has posted in this thread multiple times I get it a little better now. I do own Spyderco products made in Taiwan, USA, Japan, and Italy. I like them all and all are very well made.

I just notice that prices do seem to be continually going up...and sometimes with knives it seems like they are going up faster than other products. I can accept that because the knives we all love are not a necessity. A knife may be, but not having an expensive Spyderco.

This complaint, and this thread are truly first world problems. I realize this and I don't let it get me worked up because it is simply a hobby of mine.

I hope that everything works out for everybody. I truly do learn more every time I visit this forum.

On the pricing issue, it is a problem that we are aware of, but wages and materials in other countries may not be as stagnant as here. They raise their prices pretty regularly. That's why most knife companies have gone to China for their production knives, where the Yuan is very low. Trying to lower price without lowering quality is challenging to be sure.

sal

Thanks so much for always piping in when we have questions. You are seriously one of a kind. Thanks Sal!

I absolutely get your point David, and I think all of us have learned valuable information from this thread. I want to say I'm very glad we can have this kind of discussion here. Everyone on this forum seems so civilized, open-minded and mature, it's almost unreal. I think I'll be here to stay :)

And when I was talking about hypocrisy, trust me I was not thinking of anyone here, but rather of what I've witnessed on other boards or, especially, youtube comments. I tend not to join those discussions...

[PaleMoon]

Sal,
Thanks so much for the reply. I've been thinking a lot about this today. If I may, what other considerations follow the second? I know every case is different so there probably isn't a clear answer, but I'd be interested in any insights you can give.

When a maker is at capacity, it means that they cannot make more than the models they are making without dropping some models. Increasing capacity in knife-making is difficult. Training skilled workers, more expensive equipment, etc. Many makers reach a comfortable size and then just seek to fill their capacity each year. That's one of the reasons for discontinuing models. Dropping a slower selling model to make available capacity.

It seems important to me bc of the design potential. What would a pm2 from seki city look like? Or a superleaf made in golden? If the police model were made in Taiwan would it have done/do as well as it has? Or better?

It's kind of an unwritten rule among knife factories that one does not take a model from one factory and give it to another. We've done it a few times but the situation required that. Some large corps won't take on a knife vendor that sticks to one factory / model because if an item is hot and they have many stores, they don't want to deal with limited capacity. We've been turned down by some large corps for not using more than one factory to make the same model. It doesn't seem to be the case with Chinese knife-makers.

sal

NO matter what you think about the price on this one I hope everyone here realizes how crazy it is that someone like Sal and in Sals shoes would choose to educate us and share like this with us. NO other company on Spydercos scale in the knife world does this.

Recognize this for what it is.

Couldn't agree more with you swigert. The bolded part I believe is especially important. This level of integrity and loyalty is not a common sight in the business world, and speaks volume about both Sal and Spyderco.

[BostonTom]

i made a couple comments in this thread that Sal is a businessman first and just does the right thing second.
Sometimes I wonder if people are even talking about knives or Ferraris.
To a non-knife person, a knife just looks like a knife. That's the vast majority of my experiences. It's just a knife. I know we are on a knife forum. And I know most people on here know way more about knives then I do.
To a non-car person, a Ferari would still look like something special as would many other cars for example.
In my opinion and obviously in other people's, many more companies design nice knives too. For example, Zero Tolerance, Benchmade, Stryder, Reeves etc. I own knives from other companies and will continue to buy knives from other companies.
Going out on a limb, I'd guess Sal started Spyderco because he loved knives and wanted to make a living from it. That's being a businessman.
My doing the right thing comment holds much more weight. I made the comment mainly from this thread and others. Many people do the right thing and many don't. Mainly, he cares about people. That's more important then some knife design. He's in a position (I'm sure thru hard work) where he can treat people well or not. It seems obvious he treats his employees well. He's concerned with the economy and people in the world and runs his business accordingly. He's very accomadating to his customers and goes out of his way to make fair prices. Will he start passing out free knives to forum members with your favorite steel and take food from his family's mouth ? I wouldn't hold my breath. He still does the right thing. Just wanted to clarify my comments.
Say what you want about me but I live my life not to hurt anyone physically (unless I have to) or even more important verbally. You won't catch me typing nonsense and blowing smoke.
There's a lot of good people on here. And some not so nice. I almost didn't join after reading the thread from the poor guy with the problematic Delica a couple years ago.. He was berated. Told he should just live with it. Made to look like it was his own fault because he had bought a low priced knife. Then people actually questioned his finanancual situation because it looked like he had an expensive computer in one of the photos. Someone questioned him about having an expensive camera or phone because of his photos.You would certainly remember if you read it or were involved in the thread. Makes me sick to my stomach to even type that crap. I'm not one for putting people down but it was like a gang of mean Jr. high school girls hiding behind their keyboards.
Again, sorry for the long post. I could save you the time and give you a list of my short comings. Intentionally hurting people wouldn't be one. That Delica thread really bothered me and I see some of the same ganging up on people. I know people will throw their spin on this but it is what it is.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I for one love Spyderco knives and am satisfied with their prices and their super quality and all of it.

Thank you all at Spyderco.

[jabba359]

That Delica thread really bothered me and I see some of the same ganging up on people. I know people will throw their spin on this but it is what it is.

Are you referring to something in this thread or another? :confused: I read back through this one and didn't see any sort of ganging up going on, though perhaps I missed something? I don't recall the Delica thread you're talking about, but it sounds like I didn't miss out on anything I'd want to read anyway. Fortunately, the problem-makers don't tend to stick around very long. Overall, I'd say we have a very respectful and friendly forum which, based on what I see on most of the rest of the internet, is a fairly rare thing these days.