Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

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Donut
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#21

Post by Donut »

bearfacedkiller wrote:It is also important to know what a safe distance actually is and how big your bubble should be.

https://youtu.be/J_KJ1R2PCMM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I agree with this. I think as far as not knowing what someone might do or plan to do, keeping as much distance between you and random people will be the biggest help. Having 20 feet between you and someone will give you a second or two of warning.


This has been on the news quite a bit. Didn't some older man die because a kid did this?
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#22

Post by dubya3 »

Donut wrote:
bearfacedkiller wrote:It is also important to know what a safe distance actually is and how big your bubble should be.

https://youtu.be/J_KJ1R2PCMM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I agree with this. I think as far as not knowing what someone might do or plan to do, keeping as much distance between you and random people will be the biggest help. Having 20 feet between you and someone will give you a second or two of warning.


This has been on the news quite a bit. Didn't some older man die because a kid did this?

Check post #4 page 1
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#23

Post by Bodog »

http://militaryringexpress.blogspot.com ... f.html?m=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is the Meaning of the Term "Violence of Action"?

The term violence of action literally means the unrestricted use of speed, strength, surprise, and aggression to achieve total dominance against your enemy.

Allow me to say that if these factors are applied with absolute aggression a small weak combatant can easily win an engagement or a prolonged conflict with a superior adversary.

The goal of fighting any war or battle is to win. The results of being killed are pretty final and chances are that if you are the one who ended up dead you probably lost the battle. If you are totally focused on winning and use all of these factors in combination you virtually assure yourself of the victory. When in doubt ATTACK!!

When you attack leave absolutely nothing in reserve. Win or die, which is probably the only option that you have anyway. Don't stop or give up. Slap your enemy and holler at him at the same time. When you run out of bullets throw rocks. If you don't have a gun use a club. If you don't have a club use a knife.

There is nothing at all wrong with kicking, clawing, scratching, yelling. Go for the groin. You have to do all that it is possible to do to win and you have to apply every winning technique in your arsenal at the same time.

I'm repeating this to drive home the concept that any fighting technique is useless unless you first totally commit to violence of action. Don't be afraid to hit first, and when you do, hit hard. Remember, you are fighting because this is the best and only option. Pull the trigger -- because you are in a battle for your life! Your instincts, assessment, and situational awareness have told you that you are in mortal danger. You don't know the other person's intentions fully, and you never can. What you can do is survive -- it is your right to not be killed or harmed by another person.

Make every blow count and you could walk away; otherwise you may be carried away. Punch, kick, elbow, gouge, bite, stab, rip, crush -- you name it, you should do it, because this person is trying to take your life. The only rule in fighting is to live. If you a re tired or low on ammo then don't waste any punches or bullets.

Make every one count. Don't swing or shoot if you are not going to connect. If you have to run to stay alive then by all means do so. Always look for opportunities to get an advantage over your adversary. use every trick or advantage no matter how trivial or small. Don't take anything for granted.

Concentrate your attack on the smallest and most vulnerable area. Look for the weakest point and punch through it, quickly and decisively. All movement, to include running is for the purpose of gaining an advantage on your adversary. When you perceive that he has the advantage run very quickly to a location where you can engage him on your terms.
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#24

Post by Bodog »

http://m.policemag.com/article/2564/und ... -ooda-loop" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The more you study law enforcement training, the more you are likely to see the term "OODA loop." This term was coined by U.S. Air Force Col. John Boyd to explain the dynamics of fighter combat and why some pilots succeed when others fail. Boyd concluded that the outcomes of aerial engagements were often determined by how quickly a fighter pilot can process through the OODA, which meant to observe the enemy, orient to the stimulus presented by the enemy, decide to take action, and then act on that decision. Boyd added "loop" to signify that the process was continuous as long as combat was engaged.

Today, Boyd's combat theory is being applied to military engagements, to business strategy, to litigation, and of course to law enforcement operations and individual officer defense.

The OODA Loop has its place in law enforcement, but unfortunately, the concept has become something of a training catch phrase that is often misunderstood.

What It All Means

The OODA loop is a simple yet complex summation of how the human brain processes information and how humans react. First, you observe what is going on around you using your senses. Next, you orient to what is going on around you and put it into context with information rooted in your long-term memory, including training—both good and bad—life experiences, and your genetic heritage. After processing this information you must come to a conclusion about your surroundings, and you must make a decision to act or react. The final stage, if there truly is one, is the physical action. In order to process through the OODA loop, you must perform a physical action to implement the decision you have made. If your action is appropriate and effective you begin to gain the upper hand and can often process through more OODA loop cycles at a faster tempo than your adversary, which ultimately leads to victory.

Failing to act, or failing to act quickly and appropriately, will often result in defeat. The more defeat you suffer without being able to gain an advantage, the less likely you are to have an effective physical and mental performance. This puts you behind the reaction curve, where you process information more slowly and every time you cycle through the OODA loop you are at even more of a disadvantage.

Boyd understood how people process information in combat and the role that training, experience, and forethought play in maximizing your ability to be victorious.

The Way to Victory

One of the most important things that Boyd's OODA loop can teach you as law enforcement officers is that your survival skills such as firearms training and defensive tactics training must be properly encoded into memory.

In a life or death situation, you need to be able to process through the OODA loop as quickly and effectively as possible in order to increase your odds of survival and triumph. The fastest way to process through the OODA loop is to quickly orient to what is happening and virtually bypass the decision-making process by already knowing what action to take based on the stimulus. Boyd called the process of bypassing steps of the OODA loop "implicit guidance and control."

Implicit guidance and control is an unconscious preplanned physical response to a known threat stimulus, which is often referred to by psychologists as a "learned automatic response." Some experts also refer to this as a "threat stimulus response pairing."

Mental Bridges

In order for survival skills training to truly be effective, training needs to be capable of rooting its goal, purpose, tactic, or maneuver into your long-term memory. Psychologist E.R. Guthrie wrote that "A skill consists of the ability to bring about some end result with maximum certainty and minimum outlay of energy, or of time and energy." For our purposes in law enforcement this seems to be a perfect definition of a skill because we must continue to face countless dangers, seen and unseen, and be able to bring about a proper end result with maximum certainty as quickly and safely as possible. Failure for us to do so can end in tragedy and/or unnecessary danger to the public at large.

Building these skill sets can often be accomplished by using repetitive, emotionally based interactive training that utilizes at least two human senses and is relevant to the trainee. When a skill set is encoded into your long-term memory, the body is physically building synaptic connections between brain cells. These connections help form your unconscious memory and, much like the physical training itself, the more you exercise your brain the stronger the connections become. This process can include both physical and mental training.

An easy way to understand this is to imagine two bridges as representing these synaptic connections in your mind.

The first bridge is a rickety old rope bridge with missing planks. The bridge sways high above the bottom of a deep cavern and it creaks in the wind. This rickety bridge is there because you built it in one day, and you did not put the proper effort into building it. The failure to properly maintain the bridge over the years has also caused it to become more and more unstable; the ropes are rotting and the connections are weak. Unfortunately, the only reason you built the bridge was because you were told to do so by a skill set instructor, and you only had to walk across it one time by taking baby steps in order to show you could. This happens all the time in law enforcement when officers and trainers don't think the training will actually have to be used to survive.

On the other hand, the second bridge is a large, multilane highway span that you and your brain can race across. When you built this bridge you put lots of time, effort, and physical expense into its completion, and you understand that you must properly maintain it so that it too does not deteriorate. You had expert help in building it to make certain all the connections are correct and the bridge does not fail you. You built it because you understood the need to do so, and you have most likely raced across it at least once at work, or have at least envisioned racing across it often while mentally preparing for your survival.

To understand why we want the skill sets built into your long-term unconscious memory, you should be familiar with the Theory of Schema, which states that "The conscious mind is slow and the unconscious mind is fast."

According to this theory, if you have to think before reacting, your body will suffer an approximately half-second delay. On the other hand, if you unconsciously react to a threat or stimulus, your reaction time is a small fraction of a half second.

With these pictures in your mind, simply think about which bridge you want your brain and your trained survival skill set to have to race across while engaging someone who is determined on taking your life in a cold, dark alley.

When you have a greater understanding of how the OODA loop works, how skills training is set into your long-term unconscious memory, and how these can affect your physical response to a threat stimulus, it is easier to understand the need for proper skills training. Not only can the training assist you in properly orienting and responding to a threat, it can help you avoid improper responses.

Unfortunately, officers are sometimes improperly trained, and habits are not corrected and allowed to continue in training. When this happens officers are unfairly placed in situations that may lead to ultimate failure and loss. Take, for example, the tragic story in Colorado where an officer was involved in a deadly gun battle with an armed assailant and reportedly fired at the assailant at distance from the high-tuck position. This improper, most likely unconscious response, allowed the firearm to entangle with the officer's uniform, causing the officer's gun to jam. Unable to quickly fix the jam, the officer then reportedly raised a hand and appeared to wait momentarily for assistance, only to be executed by an advancing assailant who was more than willing to take advantage of the situation.

The tragic loss of an officer's life in this situation may have stemmed from both improper training, shooting from the high-tuck position while the assailant was not in close quarters, and from a bad, uncorrected habit of raising a hand for assistance on the firing range. When trainers allow officers to do such things on the range they allow them to become a learned automatic response to a malfunction.

In order to help prevent future tragedies, we owe it to ourselves and our families to ensure that we, as officers, trainers, and supervisors, know and understand how the OODA loop works and how to maximize our training for survival. Take time to look at your physical traits and habits at work. Could you be unknowingly setting yourself up for failure?
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#25

Post by bearfacedkiller »

This game scares me because I have never been knocked out. I have taken a few good beatings and it hasn't happened yet. I like to think that I am old enough that my fighting days are over but you never know. I have never picked a fight before and they all found me so sometimes you can't avoid it. In the above mentioned boot stomping I took I remember that even though I never stopped defending myself and trying to grab people's feet and get back on my feet that I was also hoping I would get knocked out so they would stop. Anyway, I sometimes wonder if I would have ended up in as bad of shape if I had just gone down after the first punch. Not getting knocked out and continuing to fight back and run my mouth while getting stomped probably cost me that chipped elbow, bruised ribs and fractured skull. I certainly wouldn't ever play opossum but I often think about ways things could have gone differently that night. There have been three times in my life that I wished I had a gun and didn't. In retrospect there was only one time out of those three that I would have used it and this was that time. Before things got ugly one guy brandished a blade and at that moment I would have made the decision to draw as soon I could. I traveled state to state for work and drove a commercial truck at that time and couldn't carry then. I got my *** whooped in a hotel parking lot by some drunk punks just looking to fight for fun. Good times!

Someone called the cops and they got caught getting back in their cars across the street at the gas station where they were apparently getting gas before they got distracted by the prospect of whooping a stranger's but. They all got arrested and two of them got DWIs but unfortunately I was just passing through town and wasn't about to stick around and press charges so I made my statements and that was that.
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#26

Post by sbaker345 »

You can't fight 10-15 people. You'd get mobbed. 2-3 maybe but 15 toddlers could take a person down. Situational awareness is important avoid being boxed in at all cost. I'll circle back if I think I'm being followed even. People look for easy targets
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#27

Post by FCM415 »

I hope this is just a fad...Is it still going on? First heard about this about a year ago. Something like this has always happened, but now its a GAME. Terrible.

They better knock me out fast as I'd most likely be carrying my Glock 19 or Ruger LCP. If I can suggest a knife it would be the waved Matriarch. Gotta go waved if this was a concern.
Last edited by FCM415 on Mon Sep 28, 2015 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#28

Post by Donut »

dubya, thanks.


I suppose the ultimate solution would be to never leave the house.

You need to decide how much freedom you are willing to give up for safety.
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#29

Post by spyderwolf »

Like so manny have already said,no weapon or martial style will help you if 10-15 thugs jump you.Realisticaly,what you can do is mind your surroundings,dont look like a victim,dont hesitate to run-if you can,or scream and if you must fight,fight dirty,and with all you got.
For us in Europe a gun is not an option,and i think relying on a dog is not a smart thing to do.A good guard dog is a marvelous deterent but its imposible for the most of us to have a dog with us all the time.I have 2 malinois and nobody will enter my yard uninvited,but i cant take them with me when i go to work,or shopping,or to the movies,etc.
I would love to hear the opinion of Mike Janich on this subject.
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#30

Post by zhyla »

can't freehand wrote:As the 'knockout game' is by now a traditional manner of non-white assault against whites, you would do best 'defensively' first by not frequenting areas with large crowds of non-whites.
Bodog wrote:A lot of white people have allowed themselves to become prey
Way to make contact violence a race issue. Shame on you guys.

The so-called knockout game has claimed to date something like 6 lives. Anyone who is talking about it is basically fearmongering. This is a Spyderco knife forum. If you don't have something to say about Spyderco knives I suggest you take it elsewhere.
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#31

Post by Bodog »

zhyla wrote:
can't freehand wrote:As the 'knockout game' is by now a traditional manner of non-white assault against whites, you would do best 'defensively' first by not frequenting areas with large crowds of non-whites.
Bodog wrote:A lot of white people have allowed themselves to become prey
Way to make contact violence a race issue. Shame on you guys.

The so-called knockout game has claimed to date something like 6 lives. Anyone who is talking about it is basically fearmongering. This is a Spyderco knife forum. If you don't have something to say about Spyderco knives I suggest you take it elsewhere.
I'm not the one who made it a race issue. The people attacking others just because they're white made it a race issue.
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#32

Post by Dodge »

Civilian or spyderhawk makes a good back up to a Glock 43
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#33

Post by adam569 »

My buddy lives in gaffney sc it happend to him around all the time of the Confederate flag contvorsey in sc. He went to the store got sucker punched then the elderly black man he was talking to knocked out the young dude. The bad part was they were talking about going around and doing it on fb specifically stating they were gonna hit white pepole it is what it is I guess. Im not saying thats always the case but it was in this incident. I think this should be moved to off topic.
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#34

Post by can't freehand »

zhyla wrote:
can't freehand wrote:As the 'knockout game' is by now a traditional manner of non-white assault against whites, you would do best 'defensively' first by not frequenting areas with large crowds of non-whites.
Bodog wrote:A lot of white people have allowed themselves to become prey
Way to make contact violence a race issue. Shame on you guys.

Shame on you for disassociating the event of "violence" with its context: everything is political. Just because you ignore something, or as in your case are too cowardly to confront an issue directly, doesn't mean it goes away.

The simple fact is that the knockout game is actually a prevalent phenomenon in urban centers, the perpetrators are overwhelmingly black males and the victims are almost exclusively white, which of course naturally reflects federal crime statistics as reported by the Justice Department.

and if Spyderco doesn't want self-defense related threads, then don't manufacture self-defense specific knives.
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#35

Post by Bodog »

I wonder what a gun manufactured by spyderco would look like
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#36

Post by The Deacon »

zhyla wrote:The so-called knockout game has claimed to date something like 6 lives. Anyone who is talking about it is basically fearmongering. This is a Spyderco knife forum. If you don't have something to say about Spyderco knives I suggest you take it elsewhere.
So you're saying that, because a criminal activity where killing the victim is not the objective has "only" claimed six lives, it's a non-issue. Never mind the far, far, larger number of folks who have been injured or traumatized by it, they apparently don't matter to you. It would appear that you consider getting attacked for no reason while walking down the street to be acceptable.

As for the rest, while I'd agree that this probably belongs in Off Topic, who died and made you moderator?
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#37

Post by VashHash »

Bodog wrote:I wonder what a gun manufactured by spyderco would look like
I dunno but it would be very ergonomic and probably have particle metallurgy parts of the finest steels. Probably have a few sprint runs too with CF inlays or grips depending on what they designed. The economy model would definitely be a polymer. But i think the initial run would be steel to save on cost and gauge interest before making the molds.
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#38

Post by MattinLA »

Remember physical fitness! If being fit doesn't help you fight or get away, at least it will help you heal better. I carry either a PM2 or A YO2...I wish Sal made a trainer for either.
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#39

Post by Blerv »

The only defense to a preemptive surprise attack is awareness.

A very close second would be walking around with a mouthguard in and your chin down since that drastically reduces your chance of being knocked out. Then again, if that's how you stroll around I think you NEED to find a different route home...
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Re: Protection against "Knock Out Game" thugs?

#40

Post by Monocrom »

Best defense is going to be constant situational awareness, and a good can of pepper-spray. You can spray a disarmed thug, and perhaps get some understanding if the police happen to respond. Using a knife or a gun?.... Not so much (to put it mildly).
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