Strange surface structure after regrinding

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_centurio_
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Strange surface structure after regrinding

#1

Post by _centurio_ »

Hey folks,

I need some help. I did quite a few regrinds during the last weeks. Sometimes there shows up a very strange surface structure on the blades after regrinding. I used a lot of different belts, mostly 36grit Cubitron, 40grit ceramic and zirc., 60/120/180 grit zirc./ceramic.

It is very hard to show it on foto. I noticed that D2 and N690 show this structure very intensively.

Image
Image

Has anyone experienced this phenomen?
Does it have bad influence on the steel/performance? Is it possible to avoid it?

Thank you very much!
Best Regards Oliver
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Stuart Ackerman
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#2

Post by Stuart Ackerman »

Most steels have a grain structure that may be seen under the right lighting conditions...
Mirror polished VG0/ N690 has a rice grain appearance ( at least to me)
It is not a bad thing...
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#3

Post by Stuart Ackerman »

Take a piece that you know is mild steel of some sort...finish it the same, and there will be next to zero grain...'cause there are not many different elements to show up...
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#4

Post by Mike Blue »

Agreed. Probably grain banding or alloy banding (different words for the same phenomena). As it is, it's an appearance issue and should not affect function. Avoiding it would require thermal cycling either in the billet or pre-heat treatment portion of production.
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#5

Post by _centurio_ »

Thank you very much.

The strange thing is that both knives haven't had this structure when they arrived from the factory.
Could it be because of vibrations produced by the belts?

I do not like this structure at all...

Do you have an idea how to avoid this pattern when regrinding?

Thanks!
BR Oliver
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#6

Post by Phil Wilson »

HI Centurio, If you get the right grit finish and in the right lighting you can see this on many of the conventional melt steels we use. Your photo shows it clearly. It shows up on 154CM, ATS 34, N690, D2, and very evident on Cast 440C (Dendritic). You can really bring it out if the surface is etched and then polished. Francine Martin does this on the David Boye cast 440C blades that she etches. Also on the PM steels if you get the finish just right you can see the very small darker "dots" that are a product of the the structure. Phil
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#7

Post by bluntcut »

IM2CO

Carbide roll-grain/banding (ingot rolled into sheet. not to be confuse with microstructure grain) where they became visible when surface is unevenly grounded. Abrasives (belt) will ground matrix material faster/deeper than carbide, this affect amplify by dulled abrasive/belt. Try fresh/sharp 220 ceramic belt with light pressure, and just to be sure, you can hand sand with 30um 3M diamond film (I use 1"x2" from 3"x6" sheet, pricy stuff). Sharp diamond will level/cut off those protruding carbide bands. Under optical microscope 200+ magnification, those carbide bands are very largely visible.

As whether those bands affect performance? Yes. For certain applications such as light pressure draw cutting, perf increase. Guarantee perf loss in impact toughness. Fracture toughness can be give/take depend on application/setting.
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#8

Post by _centurio_ »

Thank you very much!

At bluntcut:
Do you mean that this bands are created by regrinding or just get visible by doing regrinds?

Br oliver
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#9

Post by bluntcut »

Visible by regrind, especially with dull or wrong abrasive, where carbide bands wore less than matrix. Banding inherited when metal rolled at the mill.

ht tinkerers - multiple high temperature (~2200+F) aust cycle could partially diffuse/break-apart those bands... hahaha doing that wrong will lead to other problems.

Often you hear about D2 'orange peel' look, that is more of carbide aggregation than banding. In both case, these carbide clumps are huge - 100+um.
_centurio_ wrote:Thank you very much!

At bluntcut:
Do you mean that this bands are created by regrinding or just get visible by doing regrinds?

Br oliver
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#10

Post by Mike Blue »

bluntcut wrote:Visible by regrind, especially with dull or wrong abrasive, where carbide bands wore less than matrix. Banding inherited when metal rolled at the mill.

ht tinkerers - multiple high temperature (~2200+F) aust cycle could partially diffuse/break-apart those bands... hahaha doing that wrong will lead to other problems.

...D2 'orange peel' look, that is more of carbide aggregation than banding. ...
What bluntcut said +1 and reinforcing my first comment. The problem can be avoided to some degree during the run up to heat treatment and is best done/best results before grinding the blade. It's not only a rolling mill problem but could be grain growth from overheating. There is a big can of worms in this subject area. Either way to correct it, tight thermal controls are needed. It's doubtful that your grinding caused the grain structure. You simply discovered what was already there.
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#11

Post by Stuart Ackerman »

Just an idea

After HT, use approx. these grits, if you can?
120... 240... 400....800..then 1200, and no higher...
Make sure that there are no scratches showing from the grit before.. if there are, go back and do it again...

Then, buff lightly with the finest compound that you can get, ( or have ) and the polish should be a true mirror polish...
However, at certain angles, you will still see the banding...

I have an ivory handled knife, polished this way... I will get it out and show a pic or two...
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#12

Post by _centurio_ »

Thank you very much. The structure got visible on the d2 blade after 100 grot zirc. Maybe i try to finish by hand on sandpaper. I will let you know.

Br oliver
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#13

Post by The Mastiff »

That is what some have referred to as "orange peel". D2 and VG10 can show it off. Considering my VG10 Enduras tend to have it I never thought much about it other than as being just what happens with certain steels due to structure. The knives I have with it perform just fine so I don't worry about it. You won't find it on the counterfeit models and is one give away that it's a real Spyderco in VG10.

Joe
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#14

Post by Cliff Stamp »

BluntCut, do you have any references for the carbide argument, I have seen it claimed, but the literature usually notes otherwise and describes it as being due to plastic deformation of the grains which becomes more of an issue with coarse grains and low hardness. See for example "Injection Molding Handbook", D.V. Rosato, Marlene G. Rosato . There are also lots of papers with direct microscopy showing the deformation of large grains as producing the surface irregularity. The reason why it goes away in hand sanding is that the energies are far less severe hence abrasion happens vs passing the yield strength of the grains.
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#15

Post by bluntcut »

I've read a few about rolled stringer before tackling carbide refinement for high alloy ingot steels. While your refering to grain mechanical/roll elongation with different work hardness, so on... These rolled grains are very easily abrade by high speed belt/abrasive cutting mostly perpendicular to them. Unless include with those grain are elements segregation - thus carbide/etc stringers.

IME, my D2/K110 6 thermal cycle ht - sadly there are still a bunch of big carbides. I roughly polished surface with Shapton pro 220 through 5000.
Image
So far, I only experimented around 20+ D2 and a few M2. I didn't really run into extra bad banding as others have, hopefully none of my D2 & M2 stock pile bars come from the last 2% of the ingot pour.

Now instead of using Shapton pro 1K,2K,5K - swap for soft alumina waterstone (such as King). I would get 'orange peel' or carbide haze look. How it looks depend on the height of carbide protruding over the matrix. Those emboss carbides + trough (matrix depression - square edge/crater/rounded) define surface reflectance.

Hand sanding usually works by rounding and or flattening. Rounding when sanding direction is parallel to bands/stringers. Since often abrasives in sand paper still sharp when in use, so protruding carbides can be flatten. However with high VC carbide volume and grit smaller than 12um, well better use diamond/cbn, otherwise task becomes futile (even with hard backing) - VC just dull softer abrasive in 1 or 2 passes.
Cliff Stamp wrote:BluntCut, do you have any references for the carbide argument, I have seen it claimed, but the literature usually notes otherwise and describes it as being due to plastic deformation of the grains which becomes more of an issue with coarse grains and low hardness. See for example "Injection Molding Handbook", D.V. Rosato, Marlene G. Rosato . There are also lots of papers with direct microscopy showing the deformation of large grains as producing the surface irregularity. The reason why it goes away in hand sanding is that the energies are far less severe hence abrasion happens vs passing the yield strength of the grains.
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#16

Post by Cliff Stamp »

BC, yes I have heard the argument, however I am asking do you have any literature to support the claim that it is carbide based.
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#17

Post by bluntcut »

Got it. Will post if I ran into such lit. again - I won't actively looking for them, since I am comfortable with first hand experience. Also in my case, extensive high temp aust cycle, would more than reset/normalize any roll grain and aust grain over and over again. OTOH, there probably many facets to this odd surface appearance, hence learning mode is always ON (albeit passively right now).
Cliff Stamp wrote:BC, yes I have heard the argument, however I am asking do you have any literature to support the claim that it is carbide based.
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#18

Post by _centurio_ »

Thanks you! Very interesting data.
Cliff Stamp wrote: There are also lots of papers with direct microscopy showing the deformation of large grains as producing the surface irregularity. The reason why it goes away in hand sanding is that the energies are far less severe hence abrasion happens vs passing the yield strength of the grains.
Does this deformation degrade performance of the blade?

BR Oliver
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#19

Post by Cliff Stamp »

_centurio_ wrote:
Does this deformation degrade performance of the blade?
The thing that stands out to me is that if it is happening to the blade on a scale large enough to see it, then what is that kind of deformation doing to the edge. I wonder if that isn't why power sharpened edges on worn belts can have such poor performance. It might not just be over heating that causes the problems we often see.
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Re: Strange surface structure after regrinding

#20

Post by _centurio_ »

Cliff Stamp wrote:The thing that stands out to me is that if it is happening to the blade on a scale large enough to see it, then what is that kind of deformation doing to the edge. I wonder if that isn't why power sharpened edges on worn belts can have such poor performance. It might not just be over heating that causes the problems we often see.
The primary grind was done on a new 40 grit ceramic belt, so maybe the sharpest belt you can imagine.

I don't sharpen on the machine, sharpening is all done by hand.

I tried to hand-sand the blade surface of the knife shown above with 60grit zirconium corundum paper. No chance to get these bands away.

Today I hand ground the edge of a Hultafors hatchet made from C60 (1060) I think. Began with 60 grit zirc. paper, then 80,120, 240, 400 and 600 grit aluminum oxide paper. Beautiful surface, no bands and clouds or something and it would easily shave hair.

BR Oliver
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