What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

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dreadpirate
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What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby dreadpirate » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:13 pm

My son got a Manix 2 LW in CTS-BD1. Seems as sharp as VG-10. I have read that BD1 is supposed to be an alternative to VG-10. Is it living up to expectations?

OBTW - I have a Manix 2 LW in S110V and it is awesome!! Not sure I would pass on a BD1 version - the translucent handles are very cool.

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby RadioactiveSpyder » Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:23 pm

For me, BD1 holds a decent enough edge, not sure it's quite up to the snuff of VG-10 (which I like very much, along with N690Co), but it is the ONLY Spyderco steel I have rust issues with. YMMV but it's a steel I tend to avoid, and several of us have lamented the fact the new lightweight black Manix 2 will be sporting this steel, although maybe the coating will alleviate much of the rusting issue. Cheers, Radioactive :)
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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby bearfacedkiller » Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:00 pm

It is basically Gin1 which was a steel that Spyderco originally built their reputation on. I do not actually have any bd1 but by today's standards it is underwhelming to many. It is currently being used as a budget steel to keep costs down. There just haven't been any models in that steel that interest me so until then I can just tell you what I have heard. It should take a fine edge and be easy to sharpen. Can't really say much more. Sorry.
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sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby 762cal » Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:04 am

I do have BD1 in an UKPK and while it sharpens really easy, the edge holding qualities is not what I am prefer. I feel AUS-8 is somewhat better than it and it is definitely not the same quality as the VG10. maybe because I sharpen my knives into toothy edge (i like toothy/aggressive edge more than fine edge on my edc blades) and the AUS 8 just hold that edge longer. cmiiw

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby dreadpirate » Sat Apr 04, 2015 7:47 am

Yeah - I wish I could find a link to some discussion where someone was trying to claim BD1 was an alternative to VG-10 - maybe it was a LOWER COST alternative to VG-10. There does not seem to be a whole lot of excitement for this steel. In the case of the Manix 2, the street price difference between the BD1 version and the S110V version is $26. For my 17 year old son maybe a big difference - but for the average knife owner?

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby tvenuto » Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:02 am

dreadpirate wrote:Yeah - I wish I could find a link to some discussion where someone was trying to claim BD1 was an alternative to VG-10 - maybe it was a LOWER COST alternative to VG-10. There does not seem to be a whole lot of excitement for this steel. In the case of the Manix 2, the street price difference between the BD1 version and the S110V version is $26. For my 17 year old son maybe a big difference - but for the average knife owner?
Yea but that's 25% in this case, which is certainly significant. And who says your 17 year old isn't the average knife owner? We have to remember that we're the connoisseurs, just like your average wine drinker is buying boxes of Franzia. Spyderco seems to be between a rock and a hard place on the pricing issue, there's always mention of "I hope there are some affordable designs released..." but then people seems disappointed with materials commensurate with that price range (not necessarily the same people, of course).

To the question I don't have any first hand experience with this steel, but an absolute "verdict" is hard because some people may value the ease of sharpening, some people may lament the lack of corrosion resistance, etc. Also, sharpness is a function of geometry, so I would imagine that it could certainly start at the exact same sharpness as a VG-10 blade. How long it held that would be a matter of the material and its use.

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby .357 mag » Sat Apr 04, 2015 8:18 am

I have found BD1 to be a great steel in the two offering I have. Both the UKPen and the manix lightweight I've carried for a year with no problem. I am still running the factory bevels and just light passes on a kitchen steel keeps them hair popping sharp.

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby dreadpirate » Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:28 pm

tvenuto wrote:Yea but that's 25% in this case, which is certainly significant. And who says your 17 year old isn't the average knife owner?
Good point. Well some guys/gals at Spyderco crunched the numbers and decided they need this price point. I guess compared to ordinary 420HC, BD1 probably does well. I can tell you my son's Manix is really sharp. I'm sort of a knife snob with knives that are way over spec'd for what I typically need. And I am happy with that. :D

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby Ankerson » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:25 pm

BD1 is fine for the average knife buyer, we just have to remember that we don't typically represent the average knife buyer here.

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby paladin » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:32 pm

Ankerson wrote:BD1 is fine for the average knife buyer, we just have to remember that we don't typically represent the average knife buyer here.
Ladies & Gentlemen: we have a new frontrunner in the contest for "Most Underrated Comment of the Year" :p :) :spyder:

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby bearfacedkiller » Sat Apr 04, 2015 1:33 pm

Many of the knife companies do very well offering knives at an even lower price point than Spyderco offers. Kerhsaw offers some very affordable American made knives. The Skyline and Leek are crazy deals for American made folders. Why wouldn't spyderco offer an affordable American made knife also. They seem to do a very good job at judging what the market wants and meeting that demand. That is what this steel was designed for, to be Spyderco's budget american steel.
-Darby
sal wrote:Knife afi's are pretty far out, steel junky's more so, but "edge junky's" are just nuts. :p
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: Also, do you think a kangaroo would eat a bowl of spagetti with sauce if someone offered it to them?

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby Cliff Stamp » Sat Apr 04, 2015 3:40 pm

dreadpirate wrote:Yeah - I wish I could find a link to some discussion where someone was trying to claim BD1 was an alternative to VG-10 - maybe it was a LOWER COST alternative to VG-10. [
There is no need to claim it, it can be known from the material properties. It is the same class of steel. CTS-BD1 is on the same tie-line as 440C, slightly closer to the carbon saturation line and so has ~75% of the carbide volume as 440C with similar hardness/corrosion abilities. This can be known from the phase diagrams. It is similar to 19C27, the slightly higher chromium moves the corrosion point up but loses 1-2 HRC points of maximum hardness. 19C27 is the Sandvik steel developed for edge retention in cutting abrasive media.

In regards to wear resistance, it has significantly higher wear resistance than O1, A2, 1084, 52100, etc. would anyone regard all of those as "just ok" or "budget" and "low performing" steels . Anyone really going to turn down a hunting knife from Kevin Cashen as a serious user simply because it is only 1084 and thus won't stay sharp? If CTS-BD1 is inferior because of a lack of carbide then all of those steels are beyond inferior which is a fairly extreme case to make.

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby danielc » Sun Apr 05, 2015 9:58 am

I have a manix2 in this steel not that ive used it much I use a persistence for work (8cr13mov) I put a bit of compound on the inside of my work belt and a couple of strops now and then keeps it hassle free sharp on the move at work is cts bd1 like 8cr13mov being easy to maintain a good edge?

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby sal » Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:00 am

Hi Pirate,

One of the "views" that many here have come to share with blade steels is: "No best, all good, just different". this permists us to learn about and appreciate each steel for what it offers. Carpenter made CTS-BD1 at our request because there was nothing quite like it made in the US, and we were importing it from Japan (Hitachi Gingami I). It is a good ingot steel tht is not extreme in any area, but seems to do well in all areas. Mostly we look at: Edge holding, toughness and corrossion resistance.

Some here are more extreme (edge Junky's) and they look at many other factors that affect the edge itself.

sal

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby danielc » Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:26 am

I have used a s30v knife for work I still had the ability to dull the edge with work tasks I just didn't have the ability to sharpen it without a visit to the sharp maker (at home) for me the so called budget steels are easier to maintain a workable edge on the move with just a small stone and an occasional stropping.

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby danielc » Sun Apr 05, 2015 10:36 am

I have used a s30v knife for work I still had the ability to dull the edge with work tasks I just didn't have the ability to sharpen it without a visit to the sharp maker (at home) for me the so called budget steels are easier to maintain a workable edge on the move with just a small stone and an occasional stropping.

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby Cliff Stamp » Sun Apr 05, 2015 11:00 am

danielc wrote:... is cts bd1 like 8cr13mov being easy to maintain a good edge?
The grindability, or ease to remove material with abrasives is very similar to 8Cr13MoV, in fact both steels are in the same class, it is like talking about 1095 vs 1084. There are differences for makers/manufacturers in regards to heat treating, but the physical properties are very similar. MBS-26 is another such steel used by Spyderco previously.

The thing to realize about steels is that their properties are very dependent on how they are processed and then how they are used in a knife. When you use a knife you don't really see the steel properties, you see the properties of the blade which is dependent on both the shape of the knife and the steel.

For example if I give you a 2x4 of white pine and a 1x2 of white oak then which one is stronger? The pine is much stronger even though oak is a much stronger wood. The oak piece is much smaller than the pine piece and thus it is much weaker. When you look at knives the same type of thing happens.
danielc wrote:I have used a s30v knife for work I still had the ability to dull the edge with work tasks I just didn't have the ability to sharpen it without a visit to the sharp maker (at home)....
Now this could be due to the steel, S30V is harder to grind and it will tend to chip where 8Cr13MoV might not because it has a higher carbide volume and also is likely slightly harder. But like the 2x4 vs 1x2 wood comparison, it could be due to the shape of the knife. For example maybe the edge on the S30V knife has an angle which is a bit to low and it is chipping, or maybe the angle is too high and it isn't cutting well and you are putting too much force which is damaging the edge.

The thing to keep in mind is that it isn't easy to look at the performance of a knife compared to another knife and make conclusions on the steels as the knives are likely not identical. In fact we know this type of conclusion is problematic in general. For example if you tried to do it with people and look at for example one Chinese person vs one French person and then draw conclusions on Chinese vs French people then it is obvious that the conclusions are likely not well supported.

The same type of thing makes it hard to reach justified conclusions on steels from looking at knives. The best way to approach it is to just keep the conclusions really open until a large amount of knives keep showing the same behavior, or the materials data can be used to bolster the conclusion.

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby danielc » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:45 pm

Thanks for the info cliff the s30v knife was a sage and my 8cr13mov knife is a persistence I think you are right about it being the angle of sharpening as I get good results sharpening s30v with the sharp maker but freehand with a small stone I might lack technique and the 8cr13mov is more forgiving to this.

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby Ankerson » Sun Apr 05, 2015 2:51 pm

danielc wrote:Thanks for the info cliff the s30v knife was a sage and my 8cr13mov knife is a persistence I think you are right about it being the angle of sharpening as I get good results sharpening s30v with the sharp maker but freehand with a small stone I might lack technique and the 8cr13mov is more forgiving to this.

You could take one of the Sharpmaker rods with you and stand it up like it would be in the Sharpmaker and make a few light passes, doesn't have to be all that accurate either for quick touch ups.

Use the corners, use it like a crock stick or a steel.

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Re: What's The Verdict on CTS-BD1?

Postby Cliff Stamp » Sun Apr 05, 2015 5:12 pm

danielc wrote:... I get good results sharpening s30v with the sharp maker but freehand with a small stone I might lack technique and the 8cr13mov is more forgiving to this.
Here is the thing, this is going to sound silly, however the reality is that it might simply be nothing more than your perception of it being difficult. The Sharpmaker rods are just alumina, no different than the small stone you carry. I would bet it is nothing more than you are very familiar with the 8Cr13MoV knife as you carry/use it more and you are very relaxed when you sharpen it. I would suggest you carry the S30V knife and just keep using it and sharpening it. Not really being worried if it gets super duper sharp, just keep it cutting and in a short period of time you likely won't have any issues with it.


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