why not more S110V/S90V?

[SpeedHoles]

I'm plenty happy with my 400hp 4-door, 6-speed, although I would like it more if it had the 500hp LS7.

Early model CTS-V, or a G8 GXP?

[can't freehand]

Cliff, thanks for the comprehensive reply

@ tvenuto

Thanks for catching that, haha. When I type I tend to blurt everything out, like with the Yojimbo. Still, if I needed to slice biceps in half, sure, YO2 looks very useful, though I'm not sure why my Endura wouldn't hurt someone just as effectively. Oh, well.

[tvenuto]

@ tvenuto

Thanks for catching that, haha. When I type I tend to blurt everything out, like with the Yojimbo. Still, if I needed to slice biceps in half, sure, YO2 looks very useful, though I'm not sure why my Endura wouldn't hurt someone just as effectively. Oh, well.

No prob, I use dictionary.com so much it pops up in the URL anytime I type "d" in there. Often I'm just making sure I understand the correct usage of words. Like I know what esoteric means in general if used correctly by someone else, but I might be hesitant to throw it in a sentence without looking it up first. As I said, it made me learn something new today.

You are correct, just like the argument between bullet calibers, any knife is a dangerous knife. If the Endura is in your pocket, it's going to be far more effective than the Yojimbo in your desk drawer. There are a few things that make the Yojimbo unique. First, and I think most importantly, the ergos just lock you into a particular grip, where the blade is perfectly in line with your thumb. Make a "thumbs up" with your hand. Now imagine the space between your fist and your thumb is deadly. That's the Yojimbo 2. And during a stressful situation, where fine motor control is lost, the "natural extension of your arm' factor might be important. However, people also find this useful in utility situations, like slicing open anything.

[Razzle]

My Yo slices cheese and apples just as well as biceps.

[Razzle]

And the Endura is way too long and ungainly.

[Minibear453]

IMO, S110V isn't worth it. Not saying I can't appreciate or see why it's at that price, but simply that I personally do not need it. I usually EDC a damascus Delica, and recently got my hands on a Forum 2013. To be honest, I wouldn't mind selling the Forum knife. The native's handle just doesn't fit quite right for me, and I can't "tell" a difference between steels. Yes, S110V lasts longer. But I'm cutting paper, envelopes, bagels, cakes, and now and then some rope or wood. Nothing so heavy that my edge will be gone by the end of the week. So to me, VG10 is more than good enough.

[can't freehand]

and I can't "tell" a difference between steels. Yes, S110V lasts longer. But I'm cutting paper, envelopes, bagels, cakes, and now and then some rope or wood. Nothing so heavy that my edge will be gone by the end of the week. So to me, VG10 is more than good enough.

For what its worth, I've had the opposite experience with n680. When I worked retail, the difference between that and 154-cm was like night and day.

but it seems like for folders, performance is a race-to-the-bottom for edge retention, which is why I appreciate Spyderco so much. ZDP-189 Endura? I didn't think twice about buying it. People really wanted an S90V Yojimbo and Spyderco delivered. I'd buy the s90v military if I wasn't just another broke college student.

Maybe I am really just being manipulated, but to know that and still be comfortable means they're really good.

[Minibear453]

For what its worth, I've had the opposite experience with n680. When I worked retail, the difference between that and 154-cm was like night and day.

but it seems like for folders, performance is a race-to-the-bottom for edge retention, which is why I appreciate Spyderco so much. ZDP-189 Endura? I didn't think twice about buying it. People really wanted an S90V Yojimbo and Spyderco delivered. I'd buy the s90v military if I wasn't just another broke college student.

Maybe I am really just being manipulated, but to know that and still be comfortable means they're really good.

I don't think it's manipulation at all. There's definitely an increase in performance, it's just I don't really need the increase. It's like a race car vs. a normal one. I do not drive past 80mph, so I don't really need a race car.

[Evil D]

I'm just happy we get it at all, especially for ~$105 in the Manix 2 LW. That's dirt cheap for the steel especially when you usually have to turn to customs to get it. I think it's a bold marketing choice on Spyderco's part and I applaud them for taking the risk for us enthusiasts. I think too many companies take the beaten path and stick with the "easy steels" for all the reasons mentioned here, and I think it's a shame that they do. These kinds of steels may not be for everyone, but no one knife is for everyone regardless of the steel so to me that's a poor argument.

[Cliff Stamp]

For what its worth, I've had the opposite experience with n680. When I worked retail, the difference between that and 154-cm was like night and day.

Here is the thing though, that is almost guaranteed not to be due to the steel. The actual differences in the material properties of steels, even steels which people think are radically in different classes, are actually very small. For example if you ask people about ATS-34 and 420HC would what you hear lead? Would it lead you to believe that if you did CATRA tests on them that even with this highly constrained edge retention comparison that even if the knives were absolutely identical, the CATRA readings could easily make either of them higher because even the random error in a CATRA reading is large enough to be bigger than the difference in those steels. Now if that is the case then how could you hope to see that difference when using them in hand?

The influence of steel is very small compared to the geometry of the knife, the grit/sharpening, the heat treatment and even things like the handle orientation/traction. In general, when someone is talking about, or seeing a very large difference and they are not doing an extremely constrained comparison and doing multiple runs, it is much more likely they are seeing something which isn't due to the steel but something else. And even when all of that happens, and it does actually show a difference to that steel in that case in that knife, the kind of difference you see in general with that steel in other knives is much larger again that the difference in steels in general.

[Ankerson]

I'm just happy we get it at all, especially for ~$105 in the Manix 2 LW. That's dirt cheap for the steel especially when you usually have to turn to customs to get it. I think it's a bold marketing choice on Spyderco's part and I applaud them for taking the risk for us enthusiasts. I think too many companies take the beaten path and stick with the "easy steels" for all the reasons mentioned here, and I think it's a shame that they do. These kinds of steels may not be for everyone, but no one knife is for everyone regardless of the steel so to me that's a poor argument.

It's not just Spyderco now that's using S90V and S110V, it's Benchmade (S90V) and KAI (S110V) so they are getting out there more and with positive results too. :cool:

With Spyderco having S90V and S110V standard production models out now, the South Fork and Manix 2 LW and the Sprig coming sometime in 2015 that will also be S90V.

That's not to say that they are for everyone, but for those who want them they are available and people want them.

[MCM]

The 1st production S90v folders I was aware of were MT's. 2002 LCC's, 2005 Socom's etc.
But Spyderco brought it to the Masses. At a great price. And we are all grateful. :D

[Ankerson]

The 1st production S90v folders I was aware of were MT's. 2002 LCC's, 2005 Socom's etc.
But Spyderco brought it to the Masses. At a great price. And we are all grateful. :D

Yes they continue to raise the bar. :cool:

That while keeping a good selection of steels for people to choose from. :)

[jimmyjohnjohn]

I was able to acquire a NIB Manix 2 XL S90V recently. I sharpen my knives using an EdgePro Professional with the EdgePro and Chosera stones. S90V is easy enough to profile with the EP stones and takes a very nice, sharp, even edge up through 400 grit. After that, it gets a little difficult.

A very hard, toothy wire edge starts to form at 600 grit. Using a 20x loupe, as I go to finer and finer grits, finally up to the 10,000 grit Chosera stone, I can see the wire edge on the tip develop with coarse striations that are not smoothed out. This wire tip is very hard and the edge appears to be less sharp at 10,000 grit with the wire edge than it was at 400 grit. No amount of stropping would remove it. I very carefully use the included EdgePro ceramic hone to remove it, and the Manix S90V is now hair popping sharp.

To me, a hair-popping sharp edge in S90V feels different than a hair-popping sharp edge in VG10 or D2. Simply put, the S90V edge feels hard and brittle. Any imperfection in the S90V edge feels more noticeable. A VG10 and D2 edge feels ductile with much more bite.

I normally profile my VG10 slicers (i.e. the Spyderco Calypso or Endura) to 17 degrees inclusive. I profiled this Manix 2 XL S90V edge to 19 degrees inclusive. It is hair-popping sharp, will slice paper towels, and do push cuts in catalog paper. I absolutely love it (it's my new EDC) and am looking forward to more S90V Spyderco knives. I really appreciate Sal and Eric working hard to bring us these quality knives with unique materials. I ordered a Manix 2 Lightweight in S110V that will be here on Tuesday; I'm really looking forward to that.

[Cliff Stamp]

A very hard, toothy wire edge starts to form at 600 grit. Using a 20x loupe, as I go to finer and finer grits, finally up to the 10,000 grit Chosera stone, I can see the wire edge on the tip develop with coarse striations that are not smoothed out. This wire tip is very hard and the edge appears to be less sharp at 10,000 grit with the wire edge than it was at 400 grit. No amount of stropping would remove it. I very carefully use the included EdgePro ceramic hone to remove it, and the Manix S90V is now hair popping sharp.

The standard EP stones, and the Chosera ones are not designed to well cut steels like S90V which have a very low grindability. They can do it, any stone will cut it, but they will tend to put strain into the steel which leads to exact what you are describing. What you want, ideally, is something like the SPS-II stones which are designed to cut very hard to grind steels, they can cut even very hard and very high carbide HSS readily. Those stones are over kill for other steels though as they are designed to be very friable to ensure that the abrasive surface is always sharp. They can be used on simpler steels, but they are wasteful as you are losing abrasive which isn't well worn.

[Bugout Bill]

Cliff: The less exotic Crystolon stones will work well on high vanadium steels too, Phil Wilson is probably the most famous proponent of those.

[bdblue]

Early model CTS-V, or a G8 GXP?

CTS-V, LS2 motor.


and BTW by chance I'm carrying my Manix 2 LWT S110V this week.

[jimmyjohnjohn]

[T]hey will tend to put strain into the steel which leads to exact what you are describing. What you want, ideally, is something like the SPS-II stones which are designed to cut very hard to grind steels, they can cut even very hard and very high carbide HSS readily.

Cliff, thanks very much for that information. I had not considered that. Can you expound on what type of strain you mean? Do you mean plastic deformation or visco-elastic deformation? To expound on that thought, do you think this deformation changes the property of the steel at the edge or creates micro-fracturing?

[Cliff Stamp]

JJ, it is plastic, the main two types of abrasion are ploughing , where the abrasive pushes the steel to the side like when you rake a stick in the sand, or chipping where the abrasive actually cuts the material like when you carve wood with a knife. Both will damage the steel in the region directly adjacent to the contact area in a depth proportional to the grit size. This damage is also effected by friction (hence the use of water cooling), and will be increased when there is rubbing vs cutting, hence why worn abrasives produce poorly performing edges.

The SPS-II stones are expensive, and they are pretty strongly marketed, so much so it looked like hype to me when I read it. But they do exactly what they claim, they break down fast to ensure a constant supply of fresh abrasive which works well on hard to grind steels. I only use them on HSS and similar, or as a threat to use when a particular knife doesn't respond which is a tip I picked up from Duckman.

[can't freehand]

For what its worth, I've had the opposite experience with n680. When I worked retail, the difference between that and 154-cm was like night and day.

The influence of steel is very small compared to the geometry of the knife, the grit/sharpening, the heat treatment and even things like the handle orientation/traction. In general, when someone is talking about, or seeing a very large difference and they are not doing an extremely constrained comparison and doing multiple runs, it is much more likely they are seeing something which isn't due to the steel but something else. And even when all of that happens, and it does actually show a difference to that steel in that case in that knife, the kind of difference you see in general with that steel in other knives is much larger again that the difference in steels in general.

It definitely wasn't a controlled environment, working at Home Depot. Cutting cardboard, plastic tie-wraps, elastic wrapping, carpet, inevitably bashing the edge against stuff, pretty random of course. Both were Griptillians.

I saw your recent edge-retention video comparing the cpm-m4 against a $10 420j kitchen knife on random cardboard. Now, I'm an accounting major specializing in internal auditing and so have zero science background, but nevertheless I gotta say that a 420j bargain-bin knife giving nothing away to a custom m4 knife is a pretty astounding idea. The massive difference in cost relative to the performance, well.....that's a pretty big gouge.