Community Sharpening Journal

Discuss Spyderco's products and history.
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Pelagic
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Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Pelagic » Fri Aug 16, 2019 9:50 pm

Post about your sharpenings. Brand, grit, abrasives, grit progression, desired edge finish, decision making in sharpening, whatever you want. Might be interesting to see what people use for certain tasks, and will give insight into the results of others' experimentation.

It was time to touch up the Resilience. At work I have a cheap worksharp sharpener. I used the 325 grit CBN plate to raise a burr across the entire blade at what I estimate is slightly under 30 inclusive. Back and forth motions at first, then transitioning to full passes. 5 passes per side soon became 3, then 2, then 1. After 6-7 alternating passes, there was still some burr left. I did 4 alternating passes on the ceramic rod, aiming to eliminate the burr but keep the teeth created by the CBN plate. I ended on a mixture of 3 micron diamond compound and 3 micron diamond powder on wood, 4 passes per side. Treetopping hairs like nothing, with plenty of slicing aggression. Took about 5 minutes.
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby The Meat man » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:03 pm

The last knife I sharpened was my CPM Cru-Wear Delica. I used my Hapstone V7 sharpening system, set at about 15 dps, starting and finishing with just the 240 grit Venev bonded diamond stone. It was shaving sharp but not tree topping, until I spent maybe a minute or so stropping it on basswood (14 micron diamond paste). Now it catches and bites into hair in contact. It's a very sharp and aggressive edge.
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby steelcity16 » Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:19 pm

Great idea Pelagic. I have a Sharpmaker, Byrd Duckfoot, and a 701MF Profile set. I don't really know what I am doing though, so I am very interested to hear some best practices and steel-specific techniques with these systems, especially when used to sharpen Cruwear, 52100, M4, 4V, M390, H1, LC200N, VG-10, and 8Cr13MoV.
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Pelagic » Fri Aug 16, 2019 11:18 pm

steelcity16 wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 10:19 pm
Great idea Pelagic. I have a Sharpmaker, Byrd Duckfoot, and a 701MF Profile set. I don't really know what I am doing though, so I am very interested to hear some best practices and steel-specific techniques with these systems, especially when used to sharpen Cruwear, 52100, M4, 4V, M390, H1, LC200N, VG-10, and 8Cr13MoV.
You just recently brought the duckfoot to my attention, and now the profile set. Is it just a medium and a fine rod? Because I have one of each. I'll be using them to sharpen my pac salt relatively soon.
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Baron Mind
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Baron Mind » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:19 am

Today I've sharpened a tangram Amarillo in acuto440, a small kitchen knife in 12c27, and now I'm working on a dragonfly in vg10. It's my girls, the tattoo version, so I decided to go for a full mirror polish. The first 2 knives came up hair whittling, but the dfly is giving me some trouble. I mixed in some weird stones and finished on a Japanese natural ocean blue stone. I either rounded my apex while polishing, or this burr is extra stubborn because of the way I went about things. I've been mixing in some diamond sprays on the ocean blue, we'll see if it helps.

Edit: it was a burr

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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Baron Mind » Sat Aug 17, 2019 12:58 am

My go to progression right is a 300 grit metallic bonded diamond stone from practical sharpening, a 650 grit diamond matrix stone, (currently have a gap here, I'll use a 1200 grit diamond plate, or a 1k silicon carbide stone, or just jump straight to my next stone) an 800F OCB Venev diamond water stone, a 2200 grit diamond matrix stone, finished on an extrafine alumina zirconia ceramic stone, follow by a 1 micron polydiamond and a .25 micron poly diamond on basswood. The sharpness I get is great, but the polish isn't all that. I'll probably move to more metallic or resin bonded diamond stones from practical sharpening soon, and pick up the 4k matrix stone. I also have a sintered SiC stone otw from Baryonyx to replace the alumina zirconia ceramic.

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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby ferider » Sat Aug 17, 2019 9:16 am

Finished this in the morning. Got it cheap on ebay, as it was mislabeled, put in multi-row ceramic bearings with steel washers last week, sharpened on my Japanese wet-stone (~800grit ?) this morning. Knife appeared to have been used a bit, tip was still great. Ready to carry :)

Image

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willc
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby willc » Sat Aug 17, 2019 2:50 pm

48E39F9F-D008-4468-9327-BAE7130ADAAD.jpeg
Just finished touching up my Tenacious and Hap40 Delica on a Kohetsu 2K stone.

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RustyIron
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby RustyIron » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:34 pm

Ok, I'll join in. It might be fun to compare and maybe get some new ideas.

I like to work on an Edge Pro Professional. My focus has changed recently. In the past, my primary goal was getting a fine, mirror-like edge. My finer stones are a 2k blue speckled, a 5k bamboo, and an 8k speckled ume. From there I'd take a couple steps to 0.25 micron CBN on nano cloth. My polished edges are beautiful and quite a joy to use.

But recently, I've been playing around with coarser finishes. I've been using mostly a 400 or 1k diamond plate, then lightly stropping with 40 micron diamonds on roo meat. Getting an epic edge with the 400 grit diamond plate requires more attention to detail and a delicate touch.

My conclusions are that the coarser edge will cut through things like artichoke stems better than a polished edge. I think the polished edge will cut through an overripe tomato better. The polished edge definitely cuts through fabric better. The coarse edge seems to grab my fingerprints more, but maybe I just can't "feel" the polished edge on my fingertips. It's not a good idea to get too fixated on the "feel" of an edge.

Today I touched up a couple kitchen knives, as well as my weekday work knife, a Manix 2 with S110V. I've always given it a polish in the past, but today I gave it the 400 + 40μ treatment. I'm eager to see how it performs and holds up.

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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Pelagic » Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:47 pm

RustyIron wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:34 pm
Ok, I'll join in. It might be fun to compare and maybe get some new ideas.

I like to work on an Edge Pro Professional. My focus has changed recently. In the past, my primary goal was getting a fine, mirror-like edge. My finer stones are a 2k blue speckled, a 5k bamboo, and an 8k speckled ume. From there I'd take a couple steps to 0.25 micron CBN on nano cloth. My polished edges are beautiful and quite a joy to use.

But recently, I've been playing around with coarser finishes. I've been using mostly a 400 or 1k diamond plate, then lightly stropping with 40 micron diamonds on roo meat. Getting an epic edge with the 400 grit diamond plate requires more attention to detail and a delicate touch.

My conclusions are that the coarser edge will cut through things like artichoke stems better than a polished edge. I think the polished edge will cut through an overripe tomato better. The polished edge definitely cuts through fabric better. The coarse edge seems to grab my fingerprints more, but maybe I just can't "feel" the polished edge on my fingertips. It's not a good idea to get too fixated on the "feel" of an edge.

Today I touched up a couple kitchen knives, as well as my weekday work knife, a Manix 2 with S110V. I've always given it a polish in the past, but today I gave it the 400 + 40μ treatment. I'm eager to see how it performs and holds up.
You have some good sharpening supplies, far surpassing mine. I too have stropped on 30, 35, and 40 micron diamonds, except it was dry powder. I don't mind the edge it yields one bit, especially on s110v. It's also a secret weapon for pesky burrs if you're in a hurry.

Today I touched up my Pacific Salt for the first time, freehand with medium and white rods. First time sharpening H1. Given it didn't need THAT much work and it was a very brief session before work, I can tell it responds quickly in sharpening. I attribute this to both the SM rods and the steel, as I've used a brown rod in the past and was pleasantly surprised with its cutting speed. I couldn't match the bevel perfectly, but it got very sharp very quickly. I'll be getting lots of practice with the rods, since I consider any serrated knife I carry (at work) as a tool that must always be sharp, as it could save someone's life. I feel that purchasing spyderco bench stones is inevitable.
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
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You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby RustyIron » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:13 pm

Pelagic wrote:
Sat Aug 17, 2019 7:47 pm
I attribute this to both the SM rods and the steel, as I've used a brown rod in the past and was pleasantly surprised with its cutting speed. I couldn't match the bevel perfectly, but it got very sharp very quickly. I'll be getting lots of practice with the rods, since I consider any serrated knife I carry (at work) as a tool that must always be sharp, as it could save someone's life.
I'm not a fan of serrated edges any more, but have dabbled with a couple serrated knives that I used to carry a lot. I bagged a selection of diamond rods and freehanded them a bit. They came out ok, but I really need to put in a big more effort.

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Vivi
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Vivi » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:15 pm

Today I tried sharpening my Manix XL the way I used to sharpen knives before I got a sharpmaker. Free hand on a DMT Fine followed by a strop:

Image

I originally got away from doing touch-ups on diamonds because I felt they removed too much metal compared to the sharpmaker rods.

I used a light touch and aimed for 15 degrees per side, working just the microbevel as the full bevel is about 12 degrees per side.

The diamond stone definitely worked fast. I checked the edge every few strokes, and the apex felt fully refreshed faster than I get off my medium Spyderco stone or sharpmaker rods.

Took very little time getting it scrape shaving sharp, but I felt like it took a little better technique to get it sharp enough to catch hairs above the skin compared to using Spydercos medium stones.

I stropped it my usual once per side, mainly to check for any burring I couldn't detect by hand.

The edge feels different VS being sharpened on the medium stones. It has a very aggressive bite. I'm going to carry the Manix the next few days and see how I like the edge I got off the DMT fine.

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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Cambertree » Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:27 am

Good write up Vivi, and that's a very nice edge. I haven't had much luck with S30V at thin, low angles.

When it wears a bit, I always seem to end up with odd microchips, particularly around the belly towards the tip.

Sometimes it seems like even sharpening can initiate tiny chips here and there. They are tiny, in that you can't really see them, but you can feel and hear the unevenness on the stones. They are just visible with a 10x loupe.

I'll be interested to hear how you go with that edge.

Is that green chromium oxide compound on a rough side leather strop?

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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Vivi » Sun Sep 08, 2019 10:48 pm

Cambertree wrote:
Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:27 am
Good write up Vivi, and that's a very nice edge. I haven't had much luck with S30V at thin, low angles.

When it wears a bit, I always seem to end up with odd microchips, particularly around the belly towards the tip.

Sometimes it seems like even sharpening can initiate tiny chips here and there. They are tiny, in that you can't really see them, but you can feel and hear the unevenness on the stones. They are just visible with a 10x loupe.

I'll be interested to hear how you go with that edge.

Is that green chromium oxide compound on a rough side leather strop?
I've never had issues with S30V chipping out. Guess I've been lucky.

The strop is indeed chromium oxide. I mostly just use it to check for burrs between grits. Single pass on either side and see if any compound gets scraped off.

I ended up re-doing the edge. I used my Manix a lot over the weekend helping my buddy with some construction projects. The edge got really blunt and the edge was slipping as much as cutting.

I decided to grind the entire bevel on my DMT XX course reprofiling stone. Raised a burr on either side and ground off just about all of the microbevel, then slowly did one stroke per side with a very, very light touch until I couldn't feel a burr on either side.

Then I stopped.

No further grit progression, no microbevel, no stropping - not even once per side.

The edge is very thin and very coarse. It's a very aggressive edge, feeling rough when I run my fingernail along the edge but being refined enough to pop off arm hairs with the slightest contact.

I wasn't impressed with how the last edge cut compared to my SE Pacific Salt. The Salt was so much thinner at the apex and behind the edge, and has a more aggressive slice due to the serrations.

Haven't tested this new edge out a ton yet, just checked sharpness push cutting snd slicing receipt paper, but I think this will get the cutting ability closer to my Pacific Salt. The edge grabs material much better than the more polished DMT Fine edge I had put on, and honestly push cutting ability seems to be at least on the same level. *shrug*

Here's a few photos:

Image

Image

Image

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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Cambertree » Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:44 am

I’ll be interested to hear how that edge works for you.

I’ve noticed some very experienced deer hunters (some of whom are butchers and slaughtermen by trade) often use a similar technique with their boning and skinning knives, when breaking a carcass down into cuts.

They usually just work with a worn diamond steel and maybe strop a bit on the palm of their hand or jeans, or not at all.

When I’m in camp, I’m normally responsible for keeping the working knives sharp and cycling them back to the hunters doing the butchering.

I use a coarse diamond steel (or Sharpmaker rods) to apex with, finishing with lighter and lighter passes. Then I might give a few passes on a white ceramic steel to align the coarse edge a bit, and that’s it.

It seems to work well. I now run that kind of edge on my S30V custom Loveless style drop point: usual thin back bevel at around 10-12dps, then apex with the Sharpmaker diamond rods at 15dps, getting lighter and lighter with the finishing passes, then maybe a few passes with the UF rods at 20dps, and a light 0.1 micron diamond emulsion strop on balsa to align the edge a bit.

That aggressive edge seems to last longer and work better in processing game meat.

Of course, when I’m doing presentation slicing in the kitchen before and after cooking it, I use a knife with a highly refined edge.

I’ve probably mentioned this before, but there’s a fascinating series of images on thescienceofsharp blog, where the author achieves a comfortable, smooth shaving edge on a straight razor with just the 325 grit DMT, and a very light touch.

When he compared scanning electron microscope images of the same edge sharpened at higher grits, there was actually a reduction in edge keenness and uniformity, which seems counterintuitive. His theory was that a light touch with coarse diamond plates, means that only the tips of the diamonds are abrading the steel. With the smaller mesh diamonds at higher grits, they are able to plough deeply into the steel with the same pressure, due to their smaller diameter.

https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/03/01/t ... ogression/

Also, if anyone knows where I could still get a set of 701 Profile stones at a reasonable price, could you please PM me?
Last edited by Cambertree on Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby gundamaniac » Tue Sep 10, 2019 6:51 pm

I too am very interested in how that edge works out for you.

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Vivi
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Vivi » Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:46 pm

Cambertree wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2019 7:44 am
I’ll be interested to hear how that edge works for you.

I’ve noticed some very experienced deer hunters (some of whom are butchers and slaughtermen by trade) often use a similar technique with their boning and skinning knives, when breaking a carcass down into cuts.

They usually just work with a worn diamond steel and maybe strop a bit on the palm of their hand or jeans, or not at all.

When I’m in camp, I’m normally responsible for keeping the working knives sharp and cycling them back to the hunters doing the butchering.

I use a coarse diamond steel (or Sharpmaker rods) to apex with, finishing with lighter and lighter passes. Then I might give a few passes on a white ceramic steel to align the coarse edge a bit, and that’s it.

It seems to work well. I now run that kind of edge on my S30V custom Loveless style drop point: usual thin back bevel at around 10-12dps, then apex with the Sharpmaker diamond rods at 15dps, getting lighter and lighter with the finishing passes, then maybe a few passes with the UF rods at 20dps, and a light 0.1 micron diamond emulsion strop on balsa to align the edge a bit.

That aggressive edge seems to last longer and work better in processing game meat.

Of course, when I’m doing presentation slicing in the kitchen before and after cooking it, I use a knife with a highly refined edge.

I’ve probably mentioned this before, but there’s a fascinating series of images on thescienceofsharp blog, where the author achieves a comfortable, smooth shaving edge on a straight razor with just the 325 grit DMT, and a very light touch.

When he compared scanning electron microscope images of the same edge sharpened at higher grits, there was actually a reduction in edge keenness and uniformity, which seems counterintuitive. His theory was that a light touch with coarse diamond plates, means that only the tips of the diamonds are abrading the steel. With the smaller mesh diamonds at higher grits, they are able to plough deeply into the steel with the same pressure, due to their smaller diameter.

https://scienceofsharp.com/2015/03/01/the-diamond-plate-progression/

Also, if anyone knows where I could still get a set of 701 Profile stones at a reasonable price, could you please PM me?
I've been having good results with the edge so far. I've been making a point to carry the Manix daily instead of reaching for my Pacific Salt, because I'm trying to dull the edge I put on it.

Still going strong.

One thing I've noticed with S30V is while I have no issues with it chipping or getting it sharp, it does not hold that freshly sharpened feel for very long. In fact while S30V holds a working edge longer than VG10 for me, I find VG10 holds a freshly sharpened feel longer cutting certain materials.

Anyways the low grit edge seems to be helping here. Can't speak for long term retention, but in the days since I sharpened the Manix its done a great job of holding on to that freshly sharpened bite.

It's been a fun experiment so far. May end up carrying PE knives more often if this edge configuration keeps performing like this. After becoming a SE fan I've come to appreciate the way they grab material. I can get a polished PE to slice things like poly rope...but after a little dulling there is a lot more slipping around VS a slightly dulled SE. I like edges that retain that aggressive bite longer than PE S30V sharpened beyond 1,000 grit has been for me.

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Pelagic
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Pelagic » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:24 am

First time actually sharpening (re-profiling) the Shaman. I didn't have much time so I didn't want to drastically change the factory angle. I probably dropped it back a degree or so. Used my new stone holder and locked in a 325 grit DMT bench stone. After about 5 minutes of light passes and occasional back/forth motions to target certain areas, I had a burr along the entirety of the blade and switched to the other hand, constantly keeping the apex facing me. The other side only took about 3 or 4 minutes. After one round of 3 passes per side I went to 2 passes per side for about 2 minutes. Finished with 3-4 minutes of light alternating passes. Checking the blade on arm hair, it wasn't sharp enough to absolutely treetop lots of hairs. It could however catch on the hair (lightly gliding the blade about 1/4 inch above the skin, it would occasionally touch a hair and stop the knife from moving). This was good enough for my current goals. I moved onto a 3 micron leather strop, and noticed a small amount of burr near the tip that eluded my observation. I decided simply to strop until it was gone, which totalled 5 light passes per side. It was now treetopping quite a few hairs. I went straight to 0.1 micron on leather to give it something extra. After 5 passes per side it was treetopping many more hairs than before. Edge was very sticky and this blade in particular seems to take an above average edge for s30v. Both strops were loaded with a mixture of diamond compound and diamond powder for added cutting speed. The result was extremely sharp, but I feel that I removed more of the teeth created by the first stone than I normally aim to. I'm fine with this however, the edge is just a bit more refined and still slices extremely well.

Image
Pancake wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:20 pm
Are you a magician? :eek:
Nate wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:32 pm
You're the lone wolf of truth howling into the winds of ignorance
Doeswhateveraspidercan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm
You are a nobody got it?

JD Spydo
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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby JD Spydo » Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:04 am

That would be a great title for a printed magazine. I used to be an active member on a really popular "straight Razor" forum and the main reason I was there was to learn more about the different stones and strops they used to sharpen with. It was most interesting because those Straight Razors were a completely different animal all together.

But the subject of sharpening can be a pretty vast item of discussion because there are literally hundreds of abrasives and methods to discuss. And it seems like it's a hobby that is growing pretty rapidly. I got really hooked on it when I got my very first Sharpmaker back in the late 90s. I hope this thread gets at least 200 hits on it.

A section on hardware alone could go on for days.

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Re: Community Sharpening Journal

Postby Cambertree » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:24 am

Vivi wrote:
Wed Sep 11, 2019 8:46 pm
I've been having good results with the edge so far. I've been making a point to carry the Manix daily instead of reaching for my Pacific Salt, because I'm trying to dull the edge I put on it.

Still going strong.

One thing I've noticed with S30V is while I have no issues with it chipping or getting it sharp, it does not hold that freshly sharpened feel for very long. In fact while S30V holds a working edge longer than VG10 for me, I find VG10 holds a freshly sharpened feel longer cutting certain materials.

Anyways the low grit edge seems to be helping here. Can't speak for long term retention, but in the days since I sharpened the Manix its done a great job of holding on to that freshly sharpened bite.

It's been a fun experiment so far. May end up carrying PE knives more often if this edge configuration keeps performing like this. After becoming a SE fan I've come to appreciate the way they grab material. I can get a polished PE to slice things like poly rope...but after a little dulling there is a lot more slipping around VS a slightly dulled SE. I like edges that retain that aggressive bite longer than PE S30V sharpened beyond 1,000 grit has been for me.
Thanks for that very interesting progress report, Vivi.

Yeah, I've had a similar experience with that 'freshly sharpened edge' feel with VG10, compared to S30V, and actually tend to prefer VG10 for my purposes.

So I'm not that familiar with the DMT plates. What's the XX coarse stone grit equivalent?

That post in the Scienceofsharp blog I referenced was kind of a revelation to me, the way it showed that you can use coarse diamonds with a very light touch to get a very crisp, keen, shaving edge.

Most of my initial grinding is done on the Atoma 140, but I haven't been game enough yet to run a straight 140 grit edge off of it.

Also, the way the Atoma diamond clusters are arranged in raised polka dot type patterns might not be as suitable for crisp edges as the DMTs. They work great for stock removal though. Only way to find out is to try it, I guess.

Next time I sharpen my S30V PM2, I'll try apexing it just with the Sharpmaker diamond rods at around 400 grit.
Pelagic wrote: First time actually sharpening (re-profiling) the Shaman. I didn't have much time so I didn't want to drastically change the factory angle. I probably dropped it back a degree or so. Used my new stone holder and locked in a 325 grit DMT bench stone. After about 5 minutes of light passes and occasional back/forth motions to target certain areas, I had a burr along the entirety of the blade and switched to the other hand, constantly keeping the apex facing me. The other side only took about 3 or 4 minutes. After one round of 3 passes per side I went to 2 passes per side for about 2 minutes. Finished with 3-4 minutes of light alternating passes. Checking the blade on arm hair, it wasn't sharp enough to absolutely treetop lots of hairs. It could however catch on the hair (lightly gliding the blade about 1/4 inch above the skin, it would occasionally touch a hair and stop the knife from moving). This was good enough for my current goals. I moved onto a 3 micron leather strop, and noticed a small amount of burr near the tip that eluded my observation. I decided simply to strop until it was gone, which totalled 5 light passes per side. It was now treetopping quite a few hairs. I went straight to 0.1 micron on leather to give it something extra. After 5 passes per side it was treetopping many more hairs than before. Edge was very sticky and this blade in particular seems to take an above average edge for s30v. Both strops were loaded with a mixture of diamond compound and diamond powder for added cutting speed. The result was extremely sharp, but I feel that I removed more of the teeth created by the first stone than I normally aim to. I'm fine with this however, the edge is just a bit more refined and still slices extremely well.

Image
Thanks for the detailed rundown, Pelagic - yeah I run a similar edge on S30V at the moment - a coarse edge, finished with a very light touch, then a few passes each on 3, 1, 0.25 and 0.1 um diamond and CBN strops.

Am I right in thinking that you don't tend to take your Shaman out to work on the boat? It'd be interesting to compare the stropped edge on the abrasive materials you cut out there, compared to a straight 325 grit edge without stropping.


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