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Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:06 pm
by SpyderEdgeForever
What do you all think of the spear point blade shape? Is it a variation of the leaf shape? What do you say, sal? I am convinced that the strongest, toughest blade shape is the convex apple seed ground leaf or spear point. If made of a good steel with a good heat treatment those two shapes will win over even the drop point and clip points, scimitar points, stiletto point, and would only be equalled by the tanto and possibly wharncliffe.
Curvature. I was personally inside a canvas tipi, hand sewn and well anchored to the ground during a tornado. The winds hit the conical curve and flowed around the sides, pressing it firmly to the ground. Had it been a box shaped house it would be splinters. Same thing.
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 8:32 pm
by sal
Hi SEF,
Spear points (symmetrical) and leaf shape blades have been around for about 40-60 thousand years. The materials have changed: wood, stone, metal, etc., but the basic shape is not new.
sal
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
"Continual improvement is our evolutionary obligation to humankind".
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2025 9:32 pm
by Bolster
Zero Wolf (the bad dude from the move Apocalypto) had this nice spear/leaf-shaped dagger...I think it's a precursor to the Bodacious, isn't it?
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:04 am
by zhyla
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: ↑Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:06 pm
I am convinced that the strongest, toughest blade shape is the convex apple seed ground leaf or spear point. If made of a good steel with a good heat treatment those two shapes will win over even the drop point and clip points, scimitar points, stiletto point, and would only be equalled by the tanto and possibly wharncliffe.
This is problematic in a several different ways.
First, discussing a shape without the actual geometry is "point" less.
Second, the spear point, if we're actually talking about the true spear point with the false edge, is inherently weaker than a drop point if made from the same stock. You can't remove material and come out ahead in strength.
Third, tip stability only really matters to the degree that people do dumb stuff with their knives. No combination of point shape and steel type will last long as a screwdriver unless you have screwdriver geometry. Fix the user and you magically increase you tip toughness by 1000%.
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:43 am
by Evil D
Whatever this is classified as.
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 12:14 pm
by twinboysdad
Leaf is the best utility shape for general use. You get the tip of a Wharn with enough belly to use. Leaf Manbug improved the original by a large margin
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:58 pm
by Tristan_david2001
I agree the spyderco leaf is the most functional general utility cutting tool shape, the differences between a spear and leaf I’ve gathered is spears are symmetrically curved on the edge side and spine side. Whereas the Spyderco leaf have varying differences of edge belly in relation to the spine, and usually are dropped down at a negative angle from the handle for better leverage in the cut, and positions the point straight forward aiding in a strike if needed to be used that way. My favorite leafs?/leaves are the calypsos calys, kopa, and temperance lines
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Tue Apr 29, 2025 12:10 pm
by SpyderEdgeForever
zhyla wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:04 am
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: ↑Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:06 pm
I am convinced that the strongest, toughest blade shape is the convex apple seed ground leaf or spear point. If made of a good steel with a good heat treatment those two shapes will win over even the drop point and clip points, scimitar points, stiletto point, and would only be equalled by the tanto and possibly wharncliffe.
This is problematic in a several different ways.
First, discussing a shape without the actual geometry is "point" less.
Second, the spear point, if we're actually talking about the true spear point with the false edge, is inherently weaker than a drop point if made from the same stock. You can't remove material and come out ahead in strength.
Third, tip stability only really matters to the degree that people do dumb stuff with their knives. No combination of point shape and steel type will last long as a screwdriver unless you have screwdriver geometry. Fix the user and you magically increase you tip toughness by 1000%.
Thank you for this, zhyla. So here is my desire put a different way. What combination of steel, geometry, blade shape, and blade thickness all combine to give me the perfect general use knife?
I want for everyday use like breaking down cardboard boxes, making sandwiches, cutting string, and God forbid fighting off a rabid kangaroo if necessary. I am leaning towards a Spyderco Tanto Endura 4 or Calypso Lightweight with combo edge and FRN scales and 3.5 inch blade.
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Sun May 11, 2025 7:26 am
by StuntZombie
Neither of those knives exist, so what’s it matter? If you’re playing pretend, you can just make up a steel for this hypothetical use and be happy.
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: ↑Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:06 pm
What do you all think of the spear point blade shape? Is it a variation of the leaf shape? What do you say, sal? I am convinced that the strongest, toughest blade shape is the convex apple seed ground leaf or spear point. If made of a good steel with a good heat treatment those two shapes will win over even the drop point and clip points, scimitar points, stiletto point, and would only be equalled by the tanto and possibly wharncliffe.
Curvature. I was personally inside a canvas tipi, hand sewn and well anchored to the ground during a tornado. The winds hit the conical curve and flowed around the sides, pressing it firmly to the ground. Had it been a box shaped house it would be splinters. Same thing.
This analogy makes less than no sense.
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Mon May 12, 2025 11:28 am
by Bill1170
zhyla wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:04 am
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: ↑Sat Apr 26, 2025 4:06 pm
I am convinced that the strongest, toughest blade shape is the convex apple seed ground leaf or spear point. If made of a good steel with a good heat treatment those two shapes will win over even the drop point and clip points, scimitar points, stiletto point, and would only be equalled by the tanto and possibly wharncliffe.
This is problematic in a several different ways.
First, discussing a shape without the actual geometry is "point" less.
Second, the spear point, if we're actually talking about the true spear point with the false edge, is inherently weaker than a drop point if made from the same stock. You can't remove material and come out ahead in strength.
Third, tip stability only really matters to the degree that people do dumb stuff with their knives. No combination of point shape and steel type will last long as a screwdriver unless you have screwdriver geometry. Fix the user and you magically increase you tip toughness by 1000%.
I agree about fixing the user. A bit of informed care goes a long way towards making things last. I enjoy my knives with fine tips and they last because I respect them and treat them with care.
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Mon May 12, 2025 2:37 pm
by SpyderEdgeForever
Bill and zhyla and Stunt Zombie and others, Yeah I don't want to drop the brand names but to my surprise recently I've heard people criticize Spyderco for having "fragile tips and points", compared to some other famous knife brands. This surprised me because most of you as well as myself have not had a Spyderco tip break. My Enduras have gone through tough cardboard, hard bread, and plastic bubble packaging with ease. One guy said he stabs open steel paint cans with knives. I have seen older pre Endura 4s with broken points.
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Mon May 12, 2025 6:06 pm
by Jesla
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: ↑Mon May 12, 2025 2:37 pm
…..My Enduras have gone through tough cardboard, hard bread, and plastic bubble packaging with ease. One guy said he stabs open steel paint cans with knives….
Seriously… cardboard, hard bread, and plastic bubble wrap….. that is light use… very light. Steel paint cans…. Never seen “steel” paint cans, but I stab metal cans all the time. All I have ever seen is a dulling of the edge that actually contacts the can, no tip breakage.
I often wonder if you stay up at night thinking some of this stuff up, it’s bizarre… I guess you are not old enough to remember when beer cans had no pull tabs… knives were often used for this when a can opener wasn’t available. Only blade I have that I would not do this with is my ceramic blade which is basically glass.
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Tue May 13, 2025 10:59 am
by SpyderEdgeForever
Jesla wrote: ↑Mon May 12, 2025 6:06 pm
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: ↑Mon May 12, 2025 2:37 pm
…..My Enduras have gone through tough cardboard, hard bread, and plastic bubble packaging with ease. One guy said he stabs open steel paint cans with knives….
Seriously… cardboard, hard bread, and plastic bubble wrap….. that is light use… very light. Steel paint cans…. Never seen “steel” paint cans, but I stab metal cans all the time. All I have ever seen is a dulling of the edge that actually contacts the can, no tip breakage.
I often wonder if you stay up at night thinking some of this stuff up, it’s bizarre… I guess you are not old enough to remember when beer cans had no pull tabs… knives were often used for this when a can opener wasn’t available. Only blade I have that I would not do this with is my ceramic blade which is basically glass.
Endura 4 can do that I believe.
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Wed May 14, 2025 11:56 pm
by apollo
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: ↑Mon May 12, 2025 2:37 pm
Bill and zhyla and Stunt Zombie and others, Yeah I don't want to drop the brand names but to my surprise recently I've heard people criticize Spyderco for having "fragile tips and points", compared to some other famous knife brands. This surprised me because most of you as well as myself have not had a Spyderco tip break. My Enduras have gone through tough cardboard, hard bread, and plastic bubble packaging with ease. One guy said he stabs open steel paint cans with knives. I have seen older pre Endura 4s with broken points.
The gen 3 endura's had a very fine Needle tip. Gen 4 completely changed the design. So its possible for earlier endura's tips to breal but you need to be a brute to do so.
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Thu May 15, 2025 8:15 am
by Evil D
I must say, I am gaining an appreciation for straight back blades with more or less full thickness points, because they give you a really strong tip that still comes to a pretty fine point so they still pierce well but aren't nearly as fragile. This also comes with more belly and upswept blade tip than I like so it's a tradeoff. Microtech do this a lot with their single edge OTF's and I like it a lot despite not liking a lot of belly.
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Thu May 15, 2025 2:15 pm
by SpyderEdgeForever
Evil D wrote: ↑Thu May 15, 2025 8:15 am
I must say, I am gaining an appreciation for straight back blades with more or less full thickness points, because they give you a really strong tip that still comes to a pretty fine point so they still pierce well but aren't nearly as fragile. This also comes with more belly and upswept blade tip than I like so it's a tradeoff. Microtech do this a lot with their single edge OTF's and I like it a lot despite not liking a lot of belly.
You and me both though no Microtechs here.
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Wed May 21, 2025 11:04 am
by Netherend
Evil D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:43 am
Whatever this is classified as.
Agreed. The Bodacious blade shape performs so darn well…
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Sat May 24, 2025 6:49 am
by SpyderEdgeForever
Netherend wrote: ↑Wed May 21, 2025 11:04 am
Evil D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:43 am
Whatever this is classified as.
Agreed. The Bodacious blade shape performs so darn well…
Beautiful, practical knife. Would you say you prefer the plain edge because it cuts smoother than if that were serrated, on that leaf shape?
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Sat May 31, 2025 6:09 pm
by Netherend
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: ↑Sat May 24, 2025 6:49 am
Netherend wrote: ↑Wed May 21, 2025 11:04 am
Evil D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:43 am
Whatever this is classified as.
Agreed. The Bodacious blade shape performs so darn well…
Beautiful, practical knife. Would you say you prefer the plain edge because it cuts smoother than if that were serrated, on that leaf shape?
I generally prefer plain edged blades for their ease of maintenance and predictable cuts on plant matter .
I do like serrations for cutting garden hoses.
Re: Spear Point vs Leaf Shape?
Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2025 3:16 pm
by SpyderEdgeForever
Netherend wrote: ↑Sat May 31, 2025 6:09 pm
SpyderEdgeForever wrote: ↑Sat May 24, 2025 6:49 am
Netherend wrote: ↑Wed May 21, 2025 11:04 am
Evil D wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:43 am
Whatever this is classified as.
Agreed. The Bodacious blade shape performs so darn well…
Beautiful, practical knife. Would you say you prefer the plain edge because it cuts smoother than if that were serrated, on that leaf shape?
I generally prefer plain edged blades for their ease of maintenance and predictable cuts on plant matter .
I do like serrations for cutting garden hoses.
Thank you, I value your insight.