Why Did The Jumpers Fail?

[vivi]

Also just ordered a K390 leafjumper. Love K390 and with the discount now is the chance to grab one before they're gone.

Same here. I feel like it deserves a head-to-head with my Endela K390 wharnie. I'm most curious about the handle shape, because if it feels anything like a FRN Native it may wind up retiring the Endela for me. I am also pretty curious how a Sypderco with a thumb ramp but no jimping feels like in practice.

I never missed it on my szabo folders personally. I don't do much stabbing style cuts so maybe that's why.

[ykspydiefan]

I like the handle forward concept which is a big reason why I am such a Tenacious fanboy. That, and I trust the liner lock that Spyderco makes. Sure, the back lock on my Pacific Salt feels more bank vault than the Tenacious liner lock, but neither on are going to fail in my normal use, so I put my Spydiefunds into a Catcherman, Mule and others...

If money were no object I would own some Jumpers. No sure if it matters, but I am not a climber.

[ugaarguy]

Lockback design shouldn't be held back by people who refuse to adapt any more than the spydie hole should have been axed before it reached the market because everyone was used to nail nicks.



There's something like 5 different ways to close lockbacks other than dropping the blade on your index finger. I don't understand the fixation with one particular method.

That doesn't work for me with my Native Chief, nor any of my Natives, nor my Cold Steel Lawman. What are the "like" 4 other ways?

[vivi]

I like the handle forward concept which is a big reason why I am such a Tenacious fanboy. That, and I trust the liner lock that Spyderco makes. Sure, the back lock on my Pacific Salt feels more bank vault than the Tenacious liner lock, but neither on are going to fail in my normal use, so I put my Spydiefunds into a Catcherman, Mule and others...

If money were no object I would own some Jumpers. No sure if it matters, but I am not a climber.

that's my favorite aspect of the Resilience too. Both designs offer much more edge than similar sized spydercos with kicks or choils.

[Wartstein]

I think the reason is very simple: The handle forward concept with little to no ricasso is hard to close safely when done as a back lock. The Lil' Temperance has stayed in the lineup with it's compression. The Tenacious Walker liner locks have been huge sellers for you by all accounts. The Tenacious titanium R.I.L. has already spawned a premium version within a year of its release, despite all R.I.L.'s other than the Techno and SpydieChef getting cut from the lineup. The Bodacious seems to be well received.

I'd like to see the handle forward concept done with a CBBL. The CBBL has a similar self close and bias toward closure to a back lock, with the advantage of being able operate the lock without placing one's fingers in the blade's path of travel.

1.) This actually speaks for my point that people were / "the market" was not explicitly made aware enough of the backlock handle forward concept and its potential advantages.

Because:
One of those advantages of the backlock handle forward concept actually and exactly IS that people who for whatever reason only use the "drop the ricasso on the forefinger" closing method CAN do this safely with that concept, while the edge still goes (almost) all the way to the handle.
The thing here is: The ricasso is "just" hidden inside the accordingly "elongated" handle.

If even forum members obviously don´t know this, I think a big share of he market will not too (@ugaarguy this is not at all meant against you, just a good example how little the actual concept itself perhaps was really made explained)

2.) I am completely with Vivi:
It is really weird how people adapt various closing methods with other locktypes, but do as if with the backlock "drop the ricasso / choil on the forefinger" is the only way, despite there are several other, easy closing methods who don´t require that (including "fingers all the time out of the blade path") - see my next post.

[Wartstein]

Lockback design shouldn't be held back by people who refuse to adapt any more

That doesn't work for me with my Native Chief, nor any of my Natives, nor my Cold Steel Lawman. What are the "like" 4 other ways?

As said: I am 100% with you, Vivi:

The main reason why we never see a lockback Spydie with an edge all the way to the handle and as long as possible probably IS that while people do adopt according closing methods with any other locktype, weirdly and for whatever reason do NOT with a backlock - though there are several convenient ones. They seem to always stick with the "drop the ricasso on the forefinger" thing.
I personally use the one you show in the vid quite often, and @ugaarguy , for me it does work with any Spyderco backlock I´ve ever tried (many) - just with a Chaparral it is a bit harder.

But there are easy "alternative" methods to the "drop the ricasso on the finger" ones (which I personally never use with a backlock, but often with a CBBL) - see my vids below (first time I show each method slow, than two times regular speed).
And there are even more.

[vivi]

Lockback design shouldn't be held back by people who refuse to adapt any more than the spydie hole should have been axed before it reached the market because everyone was used to nail nicks.



There's something like 5 different ways to close lockbacks other than dropping the blade on your index finger. I don't understand the fixation with one particular method.

That doesn't work for me with my Native Chief, nor any of my Natives, nor my Cold Steel Lawman. What are the "like" 4 other ways?

Maybe you just need to practice.

This was my first time trying it with my American Lawman:



Chief:



It's trickier on some lockbacks like the Chief and Calypso that have extra friction on the blade pivot compared to Enduras, Police etc.

Some other ways to close lockbacks......

Guide it shut with your index finger (my usual method, but I use others if the handles guard makes this one difficult)



Close the blade against your leg, the wall, a desk etc., like a lot of people do with slipjoints



Or, do the commonly used method but tilt the tip of the knife down to 7 o clock, so the blade doesn't close on your finger.



I'm really not sure why this one in particular isn't more popular. It's basically the same muscle movements everyone uses but with no risk of cutting yourself regardless of kick / choil size.

[Wartstein]

I like the handle forward concept which is a big reason why I am such a Tenacious fanboy. That, and I trust the liner lock that Spyderco makes. Sure, the back lock on my Pacific Salt feels more bank vault than the Tenacious liner lock, but neither on are going to fail in my normal use, so I put my Spydiefunds into a Catcherman, Mule and others...

If money were no object I would own some Jumpers. No sure if it matters, but I am not a climber.

- Backlock is my favorite lock, no doubt, but to me the Tenacious actually feels more "bank vault" than most of my backlocks... when it comes to blade play (not how strong the lockup actually is!) - backlocks imo always have some, if only the slightest, up and down play (which does not bother me at all)

- Well, sadly (cause disco´ed) in the US the Jumpers can be had for really little money (not so here on Europe)... and no, they are really not (only) for climbers, but actually great, universal EDC folders, if a Manix-ish cutting edge length is enough for you.
As I said in other posts and threads: The climbers I know (which are many) would probably even prefer other models over the Jumpers - not because of the general design itself, but they want lighter (linerless), high viz color and "salt" steels...

[Wartstein]

...
I'd like to see the handle forward concept done with a CBBL. The CBBL has a similar self close and bias toward closure to a back lock, with the advantage of being able operate the lock without placing one's fingers in the blade's path of travel.

While I´d love to see more CBBL knives in the lineup (yes, one reason being the good, though imo still not "backlock-ish", self closing bias), I think implementing the CBBL n a true handle forward design would be very tricky.
The way it is placed and the space it takes up inside the handle require a tall handle and/(or?) some kind of cutout in the blade, so that it fits into the handle together with the lock when the knife is closed... does not really speak for "handle forward" in the way a linerlock or comp.lock can do this, and to a lesser degree also a backlock...

[ugaarguy]

Maybe you just need to practice.
Perhaps. Alternately, perhaps you shouldn't assume that everyone has the same hand strength and dexterity as you


Some other ways to close lockbacks......


Close the blade against your leg, the wall, a desk etc., like a lot of people do with slipjoints


Or, do the commonly used method but tilt the tip of the knife down to 7 o clock, so the blade doesn't close on your finger.
I've used those last two. I was thinking you had 3 or 4 other ways to unlock the blade without placing a digit in the closing path


I'm really not sure why this one in particular isn't more popular. It's basically the same muscle movements everyone uses but with no risk of cutting yourself regardless of kick / choil size.

I wouldn't say no risk. Certainly reduced risk in controlled environments, but not near as much reduction in risk as using a lock mechanism that's easier operate with placing any digits in the path of the blade

I do appreciate you taking the time to make the make the gifs and respond.

[ugaarguy]

...
I'd like to see the handle forward concept done with a CBBL. The CBBL has a similar self close and bias toward closure to a back lock, with the advantage of being able operate the lock without placing one's fingers in the blade's path of travel.

While I´d love to see more CBBL knives in the lineup (yes, one reason being the good, though imo still not "backlock-ish", self closing bias), I think implementing the CBBL n a true handle forward design would be very tricky.
The way it is placed and the space it takes up inside the handle require a tall handle and/(or?) some kind of cutout in the blade, so that it fits into the handle together with the lock when the knife is closed... does not really speak for "handle forward" in the way a linerlock or comp.lock can do this, and to a lesser degree also a backlock...

That's a fair point. However, Spyderco did use the Bolt Action Lock on the Sage 3, and the patents on the Axis Lock expired several years ago. Not that I think Spyderco needs to add yet another lock to their lineup.

[Wartstein]

That's a fair point. However, Spyderco did use the Bolt Action Lock on the Sage 3, and the patents on the Axis Lock expired several years ago. Not that I think Spyderco needs to add yet another lock to their lineup.

Yes, but the Sage 3 does have a choil and most likely would not work without one and instead edge all the way to the handle (due to the space the lock takes up in the handle) - just my guess, I never even held a Sage 3.

There IS the D´Allara though - featuring "at least" a ball bearing lock (but not a caged one) - and no choil or cutout in the blade, but edge almost all the way to the handle (which is even not THAT tall) - so it obviously is possible to combine some kind of ball bearing lock with a "handle forward" concept... see pic below

/ I personally am not a fan of the Axxis lock: It´s Omega springs broke twice on me (but probably Spyderco could come up with a more durable solution) and my BM Minigrip actually was the only folder ever coming open in my pocket in a way that it cut me (also twice), despite rather firm action.

[Manixguy@1994]

Thought I would add a Rock Jumper pic to the thread. MG2

[benben]

Again, neither the RJ or the LJ failed me, and what do you know....I'm not a climber. Great knives, I'm a fan of both!

[Manifestgtr]

Also just ordered a K390 leafjumper. Love K390 and with the discount now is the chance to grab one before they're gone.

Same here. I feel like it deserves a head-to-head with my Endela K390 wharnie. I'm most curious about the handle shape, because if it feels anything like a FRN Native it may wind up retiring the Endela for me. I am also pretty curious how a Sypderco with a thumb ramp but no jimping feels like in practice.

Mine came in yesterday and I’ve been playing with it a bit…obviously I’m still in the first impressions phase but so far, it’s a great little knife. Like usual, K390 is basically effortless to sharpen if you’re thorough with burr reduction. Ergonomically it’s kiiiind of like someone crash landed a Caribbean into a Delica, which is really cool. It’s got that Caribbean-like handle real estate in the form of a seki city back lock.

[Manixguy@1994]

Also just ordered a K390 leafjumper. Love K390 and with the discount now is the chance to grab one before they're gone.

Same here. I feel like it deserves a head-to-head with my Endela K390 wharnie. I'm most curious about the handle shape, because if it feels anything like a FRN Native it may wind up retiring the Endela for me. I am also pretty curious how a Sypderco with a thumb ramp but no jimping feels like in practice.

Mine came in yesterday and I’ve been playing with it a bit…obviously I’m still in the first impressions phase but so far, it’s a great little knife. Like usual, K390 is basically effortless to sharpen if you’re thorough with burr reduction. Ergonomically it’s kiiiind of like someone crash landed a Caribbean into a Delica, which is really cool. It’s got that Caribbean-like handle real estate in the form of a seki city back lock.

Excactly why I like the Rock Jumper, has the Caribbean feel in hand . MG2

[Soban]

fairly sure the size was too similar to other options and sales were cannibalized. in any case i happily picked up a k390 at the sub 100 price as i was shopping around for a "beater" that size.

[tzirconia]

Also just ordered a K390 leafjumper. Love K390 and with the discount now is the chance to grab one before they're gone.

Same here. I feel like it deserves a head-to-head with my Endela K390 wharnie. I'm most curious about the handle shape, because if it feels anything like a FRN Native it may wind up retiring the Endela for me. I am also pretty curious how a Sypderco with a thumb ramp but no jimping feels like in practice.

Mine came in yesterday and I’ve been playing with it a bit…obviously I’m still in the first impressions phase but so far, it’s a great little knife. Like usual, K390 is basically effortless to sharpen if you’re thorough with burr reduction. Ergonomically it’s kiiiind of like someone crash landed a Caribbean into a Delica, which is really cool. It’s got that Caribbean-like handle real estate in the form of a seki city back lock.

Thanks for sharing your first impressions, after reading this I'm even more excited and can't wait for mine to arrive

[AutoRock]

I got my Leafjumper (PE, VG10) last December, and it has been my main pocket knife since then. It whittled wood, carved feather sticks, collected and cleaned piles of mushrooms, and did all sorts of stuff around the house, from cutting up boxes for recycling to cleaning up floor trim and carving door jambs during renovations. It also did a fair a mount of food prep when I was away from home.

I really like the handle-forward, “choilless” design and the overall ergonomics. I’m the type of guy who strongly prefers comfort in long-term use over ease of carry, and the handle works very well for me. I have also had no issues with the Leafjumper’s handle size. I regularly carry it in my jeans, even to work - often unclipped, simply sitting at the bottom of my front pocket. The handle size actually helps there. The knife stays upright in the pocket, instead of wedging itself horizontally, as a shorter knife would. It’s flat and light enough to disappear in my pockets, but the handle is wide and rounded enough to be comfortable. I love it.

The blade works very well, especially after I ground the edge to a steeper, more aggressive angle (probably around 15 DPS). The leaf shape ticks all sorts of boxes for me aesthetically, and I like the smooth thumb ramp.

I have no great insights into why it didn’t do better - perhaps it just got lost amongst the other Seki-line back locks. I am very sorry to see it go, though, especially since I was looking forward to using it as a “platform” for trying out different steels in the future. However, the one I have is not going anywhere, and I will continue to enjoy it for years to come. And if the XL version ever makes an appearance, I will buy it in a heartbeat.

[skeeg11]

No real distinguishing X Factor beyond the handle forward covering the ricasso. Needed
something additional to separate it from the pack of similar sized leaf blades.....perhaps with a high hollow grind. If Buck can do it consistently well at a reasonable cost, then why can't Spyderco? Maybe we'll see more HHG from the new factory.