The Elephant In The Reveal (besides the BBB Manix): The Lil Temperance LW Price

[w3tnz]

Not going to comment on the knife itself but one thing is clear from this thread, that some of the posters seem to have little to no experience in business.

Like Sal has stated the cost of the good is cost to produce + margin. While businesses need to remain competitive to secure sales they also need to cover expenses and remain profitable.

As the cost of doing business increases so does the cost of the product.. As the consumer you don’t get to set the price, only choose what to purchase.

[R100]

I'm not sure people understand what they're asking for.

Is your stance that the Seki makers should only produce the FRN Delica/Endura family from now on. No more Seki G-10 knives, no more more challenging or new models from there? Nothing with a MAP above $150?

Even if Spyderco was willing to move production and damage their relationship with Seki, what knives get bumped from the production que to make the Stretch XL in Golden or Taichung?

I guess what I'm getting at here is, unless you think sal is lying, these knives can't be made cheaper. And knowing that production isn't going to be moved.... Should we just not make those knives at all then? Because that's what I'm hearing.

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm hearing the Lil Temp, stetch xl, etc shouldn't have been made if it's going to cost that much. Which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

I get that you don't like the price, what's your solution? Should possible future projects like a 3.5 Lil Temp be abandoned? The G-10 Stretch XL or Police never made again?

Should they cease pushing the envelope? Making Sprints? Bringing new challenging designs to market because Seki models cost more than Golden models?

That's along the same logic as that guy who thought the Urban sprint shouldn't be made at all because it costs him too much in Europe.

Do I wish the Stretch was cheaper? Of course! I wish everything was 2016 prices again. But do I want them to not make it all because it's more expensive than a completely different knife made in a different country? NO.

Amen

[Cl1ff]

I was literally drawing an XL lil temperance for fun the other day, so I think that says it all about my opinion regarding that and the hopes I have for this model’s success…

[Rinzler]

The cost may be the cost but if only 300 people are willing to buy it, perhaps the cost is not in line with what the market will bear. It’s clear that many people find the cost to be far too high and very few people are publicly stating the cost is appropriate.

That’s called a clue.

[ZrowsN1s]

The cost may be the cost but if only 300 people are willing to buy it, perhaps the cost is not in line with what the market will bear. It’s clear that many people find the cost to be far too high and very few people are publicly stating the cost is appropriate.

That’s called a clue.

I remember when people thought the cost of a Shaman was too high. "But I can get a PM2 with black g-10 and s30v for cheaper". I remember it was slow to catch on because of that. Slowly as more and more people actually handled and used the knife (myself included), people found that it was indeed worth the extra production cost. Now it's one of the most popular models.

Imagine if Spyderco had looked at the Shaman and said, you know what, It’s clear that many people find the cost to be far too high and very few people are publicly stating the cost is appropriate. , let's take that clue and not make the Shaman, or any Sprints of the Shaman.

Do you think we shouldn't take a chance on models, that like the Shaman, have a higher production cost than other Spyderco's?

Like I said in my last post, I get lamenting high prices. Gas, groceries, knives, I feel like everything costs more than it should. But at a certain point you have to realize at least with the knives, complaining about the price won't succeed at bringinging the cost down, but it WILL succeed at getting less special knives made.

[Michal O]

The cost may be the cost but if only 300 people are willing to buy it, perhaps the cost is not in line with what the market will bear. It’s clear that many people find the cost to be far too high and very few people are publicly stating the cost is appropriate.

That’s called a clue.

I remember when people thought the cost of a Shaman was too high. "But I can get a PM2 with black g-10 and s30v for cheaper". I remember it was slow to catch on because of that. Slowly as more and more people actually handled and used the knife (myself included), people found that it was indeed worth the extra production cost. Now it's one of the most popular models.

Imagine if Spyderco had looked at the Shaman and said, you know what, It’s clear that many people find the cost to be far too high and very few people are publicly stating the cost is appropriate. , let's take that clue and not make the Shaman, or any Sprints of the Shaman.

Do you think we shouldn't take a chance on models, that like the Shaman, have a higher production cost than other Spyderco's?

Like I said in my last post, I get lamenting high prices. Gas, groceries, knives, I feel like everything costs more than it should. But at a certain point you have to realize at least with the knives, complaining about the price won't succeed at bringinging the cost down, but it WILL succeed at getting less special knives made.

Sorry, but LT3 in terms of finish, action etc. is below Shaman. I have both of them. If it was flawless, people maybe would accept that high price easier. Also Shaman has some advantages over PM2. It's full size knife with stronger blade and that handle finish make it special too. It's sells well, otherwise they wouldn't made so many sprint runs.

LT3 wouldn't be bad knife in terms of fit and finish 10-20 years ago but now with all that competition it's different story. You can feel difference if you have more knives from different brands in $150-250 range. For me, business point of view recommend to improve tolerances and finish of Seki factory in same price as Golden, or leave Seki with only back lock knives. I perfectly know how lack of modern machines, skilled personel and "know how", make something not very hard to create in some tolerances, very difficult to make in certain time and quantity. Machining time rises = price per piece rises. If client choose such manufacture, because their good personal relations, price is higher for final customer. I would welcome Lil Temperance 3,5" but not for ~$300 at dealers with the same execution like my LT3.

I bought LT3, kept it for design, but it was hard to accept that flaws for price, I probably wouldn't buy it if I had opportunity to see it before purchase. In future I'll rather stick with Golden/Taichung but everyone should make their personal verdict about this model. For many people problems we have with it, may be not issue.

[BornIn1500]

I remember when people thought the cost of a Shaman was too high. "But I can get a PM2 with black g-10 and s30v for cheaper". I remember it was slow to catch on because of that. Slowly as more and more people actually handled and used the knife (myself included), people found that it was indeed worth the extra production cost. Now it's one of the most popular models.

But that's a false equivalency. It's not like this is a brand new model. People had time to catch on to the LT3, accept the price, and make it popular. It didn't happen and so it was discontinued. What some of us are saying is that the FRN version is an attempt to solve a problem but it appears as though the issue that caused it's demise still remains.

[nerdlock]

I remember when people thought the cost of a Shaman was too high. "But I can get a PM2 with black g-10 and s30v for cheaper". I remember it was slow to catch on because of that. Slowly as more and more people actually handled and used the knife (myself included), people found that it was indeed worth the extra production cost. Now it's one of the most popular models.

But that's a false equivalency. It's not like this is a brand new model. People had time to catch on to the LT3, accept the price, and make it popular. It didn't happen and so it was discontinued. What some of us are saying is that the FRN version is an attempt to solve a problem but it appears as though the issue that caused it's demise still remains.

As an owner of 2 G-10 Lil Temperance 3s and one of those who formerly looked forward to this knife when it was announced by the man himself, I could not agree more with this statement.

[JRinFL]

The cost may be the cost but if only 300 people are willing to buy it, perhaps the cost is not in line with what the market will bear. It’s clear that many people find the cost to be far too high and very few people are publicly stating the cost is appropriate.

That’s called a clue.

This, and it doesn't mean we don't respect Sal and Spyderco if we say it.

[Mushroom]

There have been clues since the knife was first shown publicly. This whole thread wasn’t unexpected and was almost to the point of being predictable.

Eric showed the Lil Temp 3 LW in a video from a trade show back in June of this year. The gentlemen interviewing Eric asked about the price and Eric couldn’t commit to a sub $150 price tag. A handful of people, including myself, said the same back then when we first heard that and we knew the Lil Temp 3 LW would not be received well if the price tag was over $150 and here we are.

I don’t doubt that it’s a great knife, I’m actually sure that it is but from my own impressions, it does seem to be priced higher than the market will bear.

[ZrowsN1s]

So I was correct. You guys (not all) are saying it should have never been made if it was going to cost more than $150. I'm sure Spyderco is taking note and future ambitious designs and requests to bring back disco'd models will be shelved accordingly. That's too bad, I'd rather pay a little more and have a knife, than have no knife at all.

[wrdwrght]

The cost may be the cost but if only 300 people are willing to buy it, perhaps the cost is not in line with what the market will bear. It’s clear that many people find the cost to be far too high and very few people are publicly stating the cost is appropriate.

That’s called a clue.

This, and it doesn't mean we don't respect Sal and Spyderco if we say it.

Not to beat a dead horse, but another clue is Sal saying he sometimes puts out models he knows will be of limited interest and soon disco’d.

That is what an OC (Sal’s characterization of himself) artist can’t help but do.

So, if you don’t like the cost of the LT3 LW, you’re probably not in the audience Sal had in mind.

Unfortunately, that cost gets magnified for international fans.

I do wonder why Spyderco does not seek a way for MAP to be lowered for sellers in Europe, where it has long acknowledged fans with the fabled Amsterdam Meet, such that some sort of parity can be reached with American sellers. Call it the acceptable price of doing business abroad…

[sal]

Hi Marc,

Export has been a problem for many years. We've tried to have a distribution center in Europe more than once, but each failed for a variety of reasons. So now, European distribution is left to the distributors and dealers in Europe, many of whom are not that dependable to bring in new stuff quickly.

MAP is advertised price. Sales figures are up to the dealer. Most dealers will prefer MAP as it protects them from the Big Boxes.

You didn't hear this from me, but maybe some type of buddy system between some of our regular forumites overseas and some here in the US might work?

sal

[Mushroom]

So I was correct. You guys (not all) are saying it should have never been made if it was going to cost more than $150. I'm sure Spyderco is taking note and future ambitious designs and requests to bring back disco'd models will be shelved accordingly. That's too bad, I'd rather pay a little more and have a knife, than have no knife at all.

I hope what I said isn’t being interpreted that way.

I just suspected it would have a sour reception if it was priced over $150 MAP.

[sal]

We've built some very expensive knives over the years. Often expecting to only go one run. But to be able to make it ad offer it to our customers, just because we can, was always the motivation for making these odd expensive models. It wasn't a labor of money, but a labor of passion.

sal

[ZrowsN1s]

We've built some very expensive knives over the years. Often expecting to only go one run. But to be able to make it ad offer it to our customers, just because we can, was always the motivation for making these odd expensive models. It wasn't a labor of money, but a labor of passion.

sal

And I thank you for it

I know if not for that some of my favorite models, including the one on my signature line, probably wouldn't exist.

[Roefisher]

Prices are up. And I guess that's that.

Like it or lump it, as I think the old saying went. You can sit behind a keyboard and type away to oppose it or cover it but the fact is prices are up. In many cases, way up.

I've decided this week to stop drinking beer and, while some might laugh that off as a joke, for me it's not. So you can figure out what side of the fence in all these price rises I'm on.

I've been around long enough to know above average rises when I see them and I don't need anyone to make a fool of themselves incorrectly explaining to me that previous generations all said the same thing. Err, no, while things do indeed increase over time, I know what's going on now while I watch it.

Mark

[Araignee]

(...)

In some cases, a model will be more expensive than some would like to, or can afford to pay. There isn't much we can do about it, other than 1) Lowering quality, which we'd rather not do. 2) Beat up our long term vendors, which we would also prefer not to do 3) Lowering margins, which we usually end up on the short end.

sal

Thank you for these additional explanations, Sal. We didn't consider that the Taichung factory may indeed be fully booked - in hindsight it's an elementary parameter to take into account when considering outsourcing, but it didn't cross our minds.

Also, preferring to stick with a satisfactory, long time partner is both understandable and commendable.

[Naperville]

I'd rather not say, but after reading all of this I guess that I will stick my neck out and do so.

Some of the points made within this thread are painful to read, not just for me but Sal and other Spyderco employees and customers.

Spyderco is a good company. They make a relatively solid product for the money. I like the knives and will continue to support Spyderco. I am in the process of selling $6,000 in knives to free up cash to pay off debt and buy more Spyderco knives. Some of you cannot afford the product and want literally a 10X better product for the same amount of money. You have access to a forum and are bashing the product the company and the staff for giving you what you can afford. If you skimmed over that read it again and let it sink in.

Light Beer bank accounts with Champaign dreams in this instance should be restated as "Spyderco bank accounts with Juli Warenski desires." Expectations are what they are and they are not matching up to something that costs 10X the cost, so what I would do would be to take a look at what it is that you can afford and thank Sal and his staff for working hard to produce the best product for the buck, and it is a sweet product.

[Halfneck]

We've built some very expensive knives over the years. Often expecting to only go one run. But to be able to make it ad offer it to our customers, just because we can, was always the motivation for making these odd expensive models. It wasn't a labor of money, but a labor of passion.

sal

I like the Lil'Temp design, but I realize it's not as popular a model compared to knives like the Para 2/3, Native, etc. As such I expect the Lil'Temp 3 LW won't come close to selling near as well as those knives. I was happy when the Lil'Temp 3 came out, though wished it had been a different steel & cost less, but I bought one. After carrying it a few times I found my Manix LW carried easier due to the lighter weight. When Spyderco announced plans for a LW version of the Lil'Temp I was excited. When the steel choice was mentioned I got even more excited as I had hoped the price would be around that $150 mark. Handling the pre-production prototype at BLADE this year it checked all the boxes for me. When I saw the reveal I was happy, but a bit disappointed the price was higher. Regardless I will still end up getting it - probably with a SE to counter-balance my PE G10 version.

Some of my favorite Spyderco knives were not a commercial success - my Jot Singh Khalsa and Kris. So thanks Spyderco in following your passion.