Military 2

[aicolainen]

Is there any difference? How you can get light use in harsh conditions, this is the cause of hard use. Maybe for english/other language minded person this not the same but for me it is.

Thanks, that was very clarifying!

Yes, to me there is a distinction between the two.

A construction worker or industrial worker, let's say, can have jobs where a knife is subjected to hard as well as very regular use, but the working conditions could still be very friendly, working under a roof or cover in dry a tempered condition where your grip and operation is not hindered by thick gloves, slippery wet handles or lack of dexterity from frozen fingers.

Our friend Wartstein on the other hand, could be dangling in a rope a hundred meters below the top of Eigers north face in a freezing blizzard, and he just needs to make one cut because something got tangled in his rope. Not a hard cut for the knife, but for the operator with frozen fingers, clinging to the mountain face with one hand and has to deploy the knife, make the cut, close the knife and pocket it safely with the other hand, and all that without dropping it several hundred meters down the mountain side... that's pretty harsh conditions.

Edit: Wartstein beat me to it... again. Those forum skills. Just freakin' invincible :)

[eventhorizon]

Is there any difference? How you can get light use in harsh conditions, this is the cause of hard use. Maybe for english/other language minded person this not the same but for me it is.

Thanks, that was very clarifying!

Yes, to me there is a distinction between the two.

A construction worker or industrial worker, let's say, can have jobs where a knife is subjected to hard as well as very regular use, but the working conditions could still be very friendly, working under a roof or cover in dry a tempered condition where your grip and operation is not hindered by thick gloves, slippery wet handles or lack of dexterity from frozen fingers.

Our friend Wartstein on the other hand, could be dangling in a rope a hundred meters below the top of Eigers north face in a freezing blizzard, and he just needs to make one cut because something got tangled in his rope. Not a hard cut for the knife, but for the operator with frozen fingers, clinging to the mountain face with one hand and has to deploy the knife, make the cut, close the knife and pocket it safely with the other hand, and all that without dropping it several hundred meters down the mountain side... that's pretty harsh conditions.

Edit: Wartstein beat me to it... again. Those forum skills. Just freakin' invincible :)

...and this, of course, is the real reason behind that generalization fixed for outdoors - if you may ecounter situations that may threaten your life and a knife might save you, you don't want something that can fail. Any lock can fail.That's why you carry a fixed blade "outdoors"... but then again, there's "outdoors" and "outdoors"

[Evil D]

Boy that dragged on more than I intended...early morning sleepy rant.

*Cliff notes; A push button style compression lock would fix all the issues I have with changing the Military lock from a liner lock.







I tend to use designs that work well with diminished fine motor skills, because occasionally I'll be in a high stress situation where I can't afford to fumble around with a lock, I can't afford to fail to open or close or even pocket clip a knife. The Military's liner lock has been great for me in this way, it has a generously sized cutout and doesn't take a lot of thought to operate, the blade drops shut safely onto my finger at the choil, there really isn't anything more that I could ask for from a lock besides also being ambidextrous or maybe having a stronger detent but those details are less important as long as the operation is as simple as possible. When you also add gloves to all that, even thin summer work gloves, you start losing the ability to feel what you're doing and I need to be able to open and close a knife one handed without even looking at what I'm doing.

So...can I do all that with a Compression Lock? Depends on the knife. Most CL lock tab cutouts are nowhere near as open and easy to access as a Military liner lock. The Shaman has been great, I could probably live with it. For comparison sake an Ouroboros has the same Compression Lock as a Shaman but operating it is a very different experience. It's no secret I love my Caribbean and the access to it's lock is less than the Shaman and I've gotten by ok with it.

One other big issue I have with Compression Locks is how on one hand it's known for being a stronger hard use capable lock, but it also has been the absolute worst lock for ergonomics during hard use because it creates a hot spot right where your palm is smashing against the spine of the handle. Compared to any other lock design where the spine of the handle is flat/smooth in that area, this is a big drawback for the CL for me. At work it hasn't been much of an issue because I usually have gloves on anyway and I'm not using my knife for extended periods, but for a knife I might take camping or use for yard work or something, the CL is just about all the way at the bottom of my list of lock choices for this reason.

So... could a CL Military be done in a way that gets around all that? Yeah I think so. I think the push button CL design would fix just about every issue I have aside from being ambidextrous. It keeps the handle spine smooth and eliminates the hot spot, it makes operation simple and easy to do under stress. So, I think if everyone wants to push for a CL Military it needs to be the push button version. Otherwise a CL would have more drawbacks than gains for me.

[aicolainen]

Is there any difference? How you can get light use in harsh conditions, this is the cause of hard use. Maybe for english/other language minded person this not the same but for me it is.

Thanks, that was very clarifying!

Yes, to me there is a distinction between the two.

A construction worker or industrial worker, let's say, can have jobs where a knife is subjected to hard as well as very regular use, but the working conditions could still be very friendly, working under a roof or cover in dry a tempered condition where your grip and operation is not hindered by thick gloves, slippery wet handles or lack of dexterity from frozen fingers.

Our friend Wartstein on the other hand, could be dangling in a rope a hundred meters below the top of Eigers north face in a freezing blizzard, and he just needs to make one cut because something got tangled in his rope. Not a hard cut for the knife, but for the operator with frozen fingers, clinging to the mountain face with one hand and has to deploy the knife, make the cut, close the knife and pocket it safely with the other hand, and all that without dropping it several hundred meters down the mountain side... that's pretty harsh conditions.

Edit: Wartstein beat me to it... again. Those forum skills. Just freakin' invincible :)

...and this, of course, is the real reason behind that generalization fixed for outdoors - if you may ecounter situations that may threaten your life and a knife might save you, you don't want something that can fail. Any lock can fail.That's why you carry a fixed blade "outdoors"... but then again, there's "outdoors" and "outdoors"

Sure, and a rifle is better than a handgun...
Still there are good arguments to be made for both folders and handguns. And sometimes it makes sense to carry both.
There are several aspects to consider when choosing a tool for a specific task, so generalizing doesn't improve the conversation.

[eventhorizon]

Well, it's safe to say when your life depends on a knife, you don't want a folder, you want a fixed... in any other scenario it's just personal preference.

[Wartstein]

....
I tend to use designs that work well with diminished fine motor skills, because occasionally I'll be in a high stress situation where I can't afford to fumble around with a lock, I can't afford to fail to open or close or even pocket clip a knife. The Military's liner lock has been great for me in this way, it has a generously sized cutout and doesn't take a lot of thought to operate, the blade drops shut safely onto my finger at the choil, there really isn't anything more that I could ask for from a lock besides also being ambidextrous or maybe having a stronger detent but those details are less important as long as the operation is as simple as possible. When you also add gloves to all that, even thin summer work gloves, you start losing the ability to feel what you're doing and I need to be able to open and close a knife one handed without even looking at what I'm doing.

So...can I do all that with a Compression Lock? Depends on the knife. Most CL lock tab cutouts are nowhere near as open and easy to access as a Military liner lock. The Shaman has been great, I could probably live with it. For comparison sake an Ouroboros has the same Compression Lock as a Shaman but operating it is a very different experience. It's no secret I love my Caribbean and the access to it's lock is less than the Shaman and I've gotten by ok with it.

One other big issue I have with Compression Locks is how on one hand it's known for being a stronger hard use capable lock, but it also has been the absolute worst lock for ergonomics during hard use because it creates a hot spot right where your palm is smashing against the spine of the handle. Compared to any other lock design where the spine of the handle is flat/smooth in that area, this is a big drawback for the CL for me. At work it hasn't been much of an issue because I usually have gloves on anyway and I'm not using my knife for extended periods, but for a knife I might take camping or use for yard work or something, the CL is just about all the way at the bottom of my list of lock choices for this reason.

So... could a CL Military be done in a way that gets around all that? Yeah I think so. I think the push button CL design would fix just about every issue I have aside from being ambidextrous. It keeps the handle spine smooth and eliminates the hot spot, it makes operation simple and easy to do under stress. So, I think if everyone wants to push for a CL Military it needs to be the push button version. Otherwise a CL would have more drawbacks than gains for me.

David, you summed up perfectly well what I always tried to express:
The comp.lock is not bad by any means, but for me in a hard use AND harsh conditions large folder like the Millie a good linerlock is the way better choice, mainly for the reasons you (and others and I) laid out: Easier to operate in such conditions (and safer in hand while doing so), better ergos in prolongued, hard use.

So not wanting the Millie to get actually REPLACED with a comp lock version is not for nostalgic, but for practical reasons

Can't weigh in on the button comp lock, never tried one. It seems not to have the "issues" of the regular comp.lock and could very well be a great choice! Any idea if it is prone to getting clogged up with dirt and by that the function could be impaired?

[Wartstein]

Added to my post above: One drawback of a button comp lock on the Millie could be, that it would not allow the short, shallow Millie choil, which I personally love

[Evil D]

Can't weigh in on the button comp lock, never tried one. It seems not to have the "issues" of the regular comp.lock and could very well be a great choice! Any idea if it is prone to getting clogged up with dirt and by that the function could be impaired?

I haven't had one either but it can't be any worse than a CBBL and I've seen those packed with mud, they're easy enough to rinse out.

[Evil D]

Added to my post above: One drawback of a button comp lock on the Millie could be, that it would not allow the short, shallow Millie choil, which I personally love

Unfortunately I would bet the choil will definitely get bigger on the next Military, just like it did on the Stretch and Police. It's a trend.

[VashHash]

If we're talking button comp lock I'd say use the one from the autonomy series. It's very easy to use with gloves. It passes through the knife so it cleans itself. Honestly for a one handed knife I think the autonomy series is a good design. Of course legal BS restricts that. So we need manual knives with this lock. I've had my autonomy caked with wet sand and it practically cleaned itself out. The worst part was the pivot but I rinsed it without disassembling the knife and it was fine.

[Sumdumguy]

Leave the choil alone.

It is the only choil I've found that was actually neutral, in that you can have your finger in many different spots within that choil.

The handle on the Military is a design that should remain as it is.

Changing the lock to a compression or backlock? Great! Just, leave the handle shape alone!!!

[DukeBrnz]

As usual, I find myself nodding along with David's observations. A button lock would probably be the only lock change I would call an improvement and evolution of the design.
As for the choil, that design on the Military should be incorporated into more patterns. It's the least obtrusive and most useful of all the choils I've tried. It's one of those things about the Military that have never been bettered elsewhere.

[Woodpuppy]

A couple years ago I would have championed a Comp lock on the Millie, but no longer. Besides my original worker, the Millie has been my most carried Spyderco. I like it just the way it is. Just want it in the MagnaCarta edition.

[James Y]

A couple years ago I would have championed a Comp lock on the Millie, but no longer. Besides my original worker, the Millie has been my most carried Spyderco. I like it just the way it is. Just want it in the MagnaCarta edition.

MagnaCarta edition?

:D

Jim

[Wartstein]

Added to my post above: One drawback of a button comp lock on the Millie could be, that it would not allow the short, shallow Millie choil, which I personally love

Unfortunately I would bet the choil will definitely get bigger on the next Military, just like it did on the Stretch and Police. It's a trend.

As usual, I find myself nodding along with David's observations. A button lock would probably be the only lock change I would call an improvement and evolution of the design.
As for the choil, that design on the Military should be incorporated into more patterns. It's the least obtrusive and most useful of all the choils I've tried. It's one of those things about the Military that have never been bettered elsewhere.

I have a feeling that many don´t get almost "offended" anymore when people (and I did this not only once..) find the comp. lock cool, but just an alternative, and not necessarily an improvement to/of the linerlock. There are good reasons for that, and all I and others always said comes from real experience and use. And which lock fits better for a certain person or knife depends probably a lot on the scenario the folder is used in#

For the Millie choil: Yes, it is perfect as it is! I do like shallow choils (they tend to give me more control than deeper choils, despite the latter "feel" better when just holding, but not really using the knife) and I like short choils (sacrifice less cuttig edge, position the hand closer to the egde when the knife is not held choked up)
Though, David, I seem to recall that you prefer the deeper, larger choils?!

I just think by design the button comp.lock would make a larger choil necessary? Just look at the Smock...

[Evil D]

Though, David, I seem to recall that you prefer the deeper, larger choils?!

I just think by design the button comp.lock would make a larger choil necessary? Just look at the Smock...

For the record I don't necessarily prefer it, I'm sort of playing devil's advocate here and just trying to fill out all sides of the discussion. I've come to a realization with the current Military that there are other models that I strongly prefer over it, which was a hard pill to swallow and I suddenly found myself much more open to the idea of changing the current design. As I said before, unless there's a sprint/exclusive coming out in a steel that I want, I don't have ANY plans to buy more of the current Military, I already have I think 5 of them so what am I gaining by fighting to keep the Military the same as it is? On the other hand there's at least a chance that whatever changes are made will be changes that I actually prefer, and along with a new version almost surely comes more sprints and exclusives which we aren't getting much of with the current version so it's really starting to feel like there needs to be a change because the Military situation has become stagnant.


As for the choil, what I would really like to see is a choil like the Kapara, where instead of a "50/50 choil" where the choil eats up a half inch of the blade, the choil only extends into the very end of the blade and essentially puts your grip right where it would be on an edge-forward knife like the Rock Jumper or Caribbean. This will give people their choil while also giving me the grip I'm looking for.





As for the button lock working with the Military design, I think it's doable. If you look at the Autonomy 1, it doesn't have a choil at all and it works with the Plunge Lock which is somewhat similar, if not taking up even more space than a button compression lock would.



Really though I would also be totally fine with a back lock. It would solve my issues with a compression lock creating hot spots, it's ambidextrous, it has a stronger close bias like a lot of people prefer. The biggest issue there is that it would become very similar to a Police 4 aside from some grip shape differences so it would be a little redundant.



I've sort of developed a bit of a love/hate relationship with the compression lock lately. I love how it operates, I love being able to drop the blade shut, but the hot spot issue is a big deal for me and it's my least favorite part of my Caribbean and Shaman. I want a knife I can use HARD for extended periods of time with the most comfort possible (and don't tell me I can't have that in a folder because where's the fun in that). I really think the button version compression lock will fix this issue without adding any real drawbacks, but I also haven't ever used one so I'm speculating.

[Woodpuppy]

A couple years ago I would have championed a Comp lock on the Millie, but no longer. Besides my original worker, the Millie has been my most carried Spyderco. I like it just the way it is. Just want it in the MagnaCarta edition.

MagnaCarta edition?

:D

Jim

I’d love to be able to say I came up with that, but someone else in the MagnaCut thread coined it!

As for the choil, what I would really like to see is a choil like the Kapara, where instead of a "50/50 choil" where the choil eats up a half inch of the blade, the choil only extends into the very end of the blade and essentially puts your grip right where it would be on an edge-forward knife like the Rock Jumper or Caribbean. This will give people their choil while also giving me the grip I'm looking for.

I’ve never looked at the Kapara that closely, but I agree with your assessment on the 25/75 choil. Frankly I don’t need a choil at all, and the one on the Millie is easy to ignore. But the handle is superb! I only have one Millie, so it wouldn’t hurt my feelings to have another in a great steel :D

[DukeBrnz]

Added to my post above: One drawback of a button comp lock on the Millie could be, that it would not allow the short, shallow Millie choil, which I personally love

Unfortunately I would bet the choil will definitely get bigger on the next Military, just like it did on the Stretch and Police. It's a trend.

As usual, I find myself nodding along with David's observations. A button lock would probably be the only lock change I would call an improvement and evolution of the design.
As for the choil, that design on the Military should be incorporated into more patterns. It's the least obtrusive and most useful of all the choils I've tried. It's one of those things about the Military that have never been bettered elsewhere.

I have a feeling that many don´t get almost "offended" anymore when people (and I did this not only once..) find the comp. lock cool, but just an alternative, and not necessarily an improvement to/of the linerlock. There are good reasons for that, and all I and others always said comes from real experience and use. And which lock fits better for a certain person or knife depends probably a lot on the scenario the folder is used in#

For the Millie choil: Yes, it is perfect as it is! I do like shallow choils (they tend to give me more control than deeper choils, despite the latter "feel" better when just holding, but not really using the knife) and I like short choils (sacrifice less cuttig edge, position the hand closer to the egde when the knife is not held choked up)
Though, David, I seem to recall that you prefer the deeper, larger choils?!

I just think by design the button comp.lock would make a larger choil necessary? Just look at the Smock...

I don't think the compression is an improvement upon the liner lock per se.. I think that the lock must match the knife and in this case I think the button/plunge lock is the only lock I could see as an improvement upon the design. Like David, I could be happy with a back lock. It's certainly strong, ambidextrous and secure in the pocket. That would likely be a mistake though.

The Military should remain light for it's size, easy to rinse in the field, fast in it's deployment and stowing. Those are essential parts of why we all love it. So a backlock is out. A compression lock has the hated cutout in the palm and so that's out. A CBBL could potentially work but it gathers no fans lately. The Military 2 has to be a commercial success that revives this old flagship or what would the point of messing with the design be? So what are we left with? This very intriguing idea of a button lock.

It would sell incredibly well. There's a lot of buzz around the design. It would keep the construction light and open, the operation fast and intuitive, and be plenty strong. I think it's a win all around. As for the choil, see David's comment and also look to all the button lock PM2 mods. If they can work that out then surely the spyderfolks can make this work.

[wrdwrght]

So, do we yet know anything about the Military2 that is apparently on display at Blade?

[Wartstein]

I don't think the compression is an improvement upon the liner lock per se.. I think that the lock must match the knife and in this case I think the button/plunge lock is the only lock I could see as an improvement upon the design. Like David, I could be happy with a back lock. It's certainly strong, ambidextrous and secure in the pocket. That would likely be a mistake though.

The Military should remain light for it's size, easy to rinse in the field, fast in it's deployment and stowing. Those are essential parts of why we all love it. So a backlock is out. A compression lock has the hated cutout in the palm and so that's out. A CBBL could potentially work but it gathers no fans lately. The Military 2 has to be a commercial success that revives this old flagship or what would the point of messing with the design be? So what are we left with? This very intriguing idea of a button lock.

--

This! :)

/ What I don´t understand though is the second highlighted part:
- A backlock is actually very "fast in deployment and stowing", the harsher the conditions, the more it beats the comp.lock concerning that (one always has to consider: Starting with the knife in a useful cutting grip - closing one handed - store away. This is where a backlock is at least as fast as a comp. lock. , in my use actually faster, safer in hand plus safer for the fingers)
- A backlock knife can be very light for its size!! Think Endura (with liners), think Salt 2 ffg and Pac Salt 2 ffg (no liners) - the latter really by far the lightest Spydercos in their size categories!

That being said: As much as I love the backlock: The Millie is just not a "backlock knife": Linerlock is perfect here, button comp.lock would probably be so too.