Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

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I’ve been playing with Luong’s knife for a month now and I’m enjoying Vanax SC with this particular heat treat immensely.

The knife came finished at a rough guess on a 120grit belt, hand sharpened to 3000grit, I believe and sharp. A section of the blade near the heel freely whittled free hanging hair.

[...]

That’s it for now but I’m not done yet and there’s still more to come.

If anyone has anything at all they’d like to see me try with the knife please feel free to suggest it.

Bloke,

Thanks for testing and composed an excellent write up. Also appreciate the details on edge geometry, sharpened dps and side-to-side perf testing with s30v&s90v. Your finding concurred with others & my on aspect: Edge retained shaving sharpness after extended corrosion test highlighted vanax's key attribute - compare to edge of normal stainless steel blade would lose its sub micron apex by oxidation.

IME: Edge retention submicron to ~3-5 microns apex width, for steels with 10+% carbide volume+good ht+hardness, would be similar. Vanax seems to has finer carbide (I don't have appropriate etchant to verify with microscope), perhaps translated to better/easier sharpening response than S*0V steels. Pressure/slice cuts at 5-20um apex width - coarser + more carbide s90v would out performs vanax. Vanax should win over s*0v on impact & lateral cuts/chops.

I concurred with your assessment (vanax) 'an awesome steel'.

** test params suggestion **

1. Sharpen edges only (or ended) with diamond plate. Reason: ime - strop refined the apex however weakened it at some degrees.

2. Pressure cut and chop (2 diff edge section) bamboo toothpick. This will test lateral stability and impact toughness of edge.

Thanks,

==Luong

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Chad - Thanks for your post on prelim-perf-test. Your assertion below, is it still so?

I am asking because I couldn't discern high sharpness perf differences among steels (all tempered at 350F) [vanax 62.5rc, s35v 65rc, s35vn 64rc, s110v 65rc, niolox 65rc, ..]. Certainly, can't tell diff between vanax 61.5rc vs 62.5rc for soft-to-bamboo hardness test materials. I will try to produce vanax 63-63.5rc @350F tempered. What are your takes/thoughts?

Oh, it would be fun to make & destruction test vanax 62rc chopper (~10" blade, 15" oal). However no fun at $140 a blank :p

Hey Lance,

Thanks for your data on Vanax (Your knife hrc ~59 - 59.5) long term performance in salty environment. S30V edge retention is about where I assessed vanax as well. My latest test blade hrc is around 61.5 to almost 62. This blade has hunter/util profile.
....
I've one last vanax blank to ht target for 62.25 - 63 rc....==Luong

Hi Luong,

The knives Lance is testing right now are not the the same as the original knife he posted. Neither of the test knives he's using right now are 59-59.5. We have been working directly with Uddeholm to establish the best Vanax HT protocol specifically for knives. One of the 2 knives currently being tested has the best H/T for corrosion resistance and the other is heat treated and tempered for the hardest possible edge.

One thing we have seen through testing is that the hardest blade doesn't necessarily provide better edge characteristics.

If you want to discuss any specifics or questions you might have, feel free to send me a P.M.

Best regards,

Chad

[Xplorer]

Chad - Thanks for your post on prelim-perf-test. Your assertion below, is it still so...?

Hi Luong,

Yes. After working with the metallurgists and engineers at Uddeholm to figure out the best options we were eventually able to narrow it down to the final 2 that Lance is testing. One of those was the hardest blade we could get out of Vanax and the other was the most corrosion resistant option. Initially I thought something in between the 2 might be ideal. The 2 blades performed almost identically from an edge performance perspective. However, the harder blade lost a noticeable degree of corrosion resistance and although it didn't really stay sharp any longer it was noticably harder to sharpen. The most corrosion resistant protocol gave us all of the edge performance along with all of the corrosion resistance and it was easy to sharpen.

If you want the exact recipe we developed I'll just give it to you. It's eventually going to be published in Blade Magazine anyway. Just PM me if you want the details. If not....and you prefer to keep experimenting (which is never a bad idea IMO), try tempering at a slightly higher temp (somewhere between 389F and 391F)

Best regards,
Chad

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Thanks Chad!

I will 200C/392F temper the current vanax 62.5rc blade - probably ill drop hardness to 62rc. Then do some test and post finding. btw - For over a year now, I haven't temper any steels in 540C/1000F range (secondary hardening response).

Since BU will eventually (soon?) publish ht recipe, well of course - I would like to know this pre-public ht recipe. I will use this ht recipe to make a baseline blade for comparison with my ht (will ignore hrc disparity if any).

Chad - Thanks for your post on prelim-perf-test. Your assertion below, is it still so...?

Hi Luong,

Yes. After working with the metallurgists and engineers at Uddeholm to figure out the best options we were eventually able to narrow it down to the final 2 that Lance is testing. One of those was the hardest blade we could get out of Vanax and the other was the most corrosion resistant option. Initially I thought something in between the 2 might be ideal. The 2 blades performed almost identically from an edge performance perspective. However, the harder blade lost a noticeable degree of corrosion resistance and although it didn't really stay sharp any longer it was noticably harder to sharpen. The most corrosion resistant protocol gave us all of the edge performance along with all of the corrosion resistance and it was easy to sharpen.

If you want the exact recipe we developed I'll just give it to you. It's eventually going to be published in Blade Magazine anyway. Just PM me if you want the details. If not....and you prefer to keep experimenting (which is never a bad idea IMO), try tempering at a slightly higher temp (somewhere between 389F and 391F)

Best regards,
Chad

[anagarika]

I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion and knowledge sharing!

Just a light user here, but it seems the best razor material: no apex degradation due to corrosion, fine grain for smooth microstructure and tough to be brought thin ...
What else to ask? :cool:

@Bloke, glad you enjoyed and giving it a good run!
@Lance, I like that profile, very Sharpfinger shape.
@Luong, a nice handle! Your woodcrafting keeps getting better!
@Chad, @Shawn, nice blades too!
@Sal, no pics sharing the mule in test? :p

[ThePeacent]

this thread is AWESOME! :D

Thank you all that make this technological progress possible with new steels available for us to see :cool:

[Bloke]

After cutting rope, half a dozen or so tickles on the SharpMaker medium stones had the Vanax hair popping sharp again. This particular example is an absolute pleasure to sharpen.

I scrounged this short lead from a bin on the wharf where I work. It IS NOT simple extension lead. It is somewhat thicker and stiffer with a very hard outer sheath and the three copper core wires are also thicker with heavier insulation than any heavy duty extension cords as I know them.

Anyhow, I push cut by see-sawing the knife at the heel through this lead 19 times, checking with the loupe and light you see for edge damage and feeling with my thumb nail as I went. To my surprise I couldn’t see or feel any damage to the edge whatsoever and sharpness seemed unaffected. In fact, if I’d have lent the knife and not known what had been cut I sincerely doubt I couldn’t have picked any difference in the edge.



Very, very impressive in my book!

Cut #20, I see-sawed about halfway through the lead and twisted the knife and wasn’t overly surprised to hear the unmistakable ‘ping’ that never fails to leave me feeling nauseous. I finished the cut and on inspection I could feel then see the chip in the blade but pleasant surprised as to how minimal it is.



More to come soon!

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Good testing, Bloke :thumbup:

If you haven't fixed the chip yet, please chop that cable - using good edge section - to see how the edge degrade.

(jokingly) Where are the Vanax's 2 friends?

[Bloke]

Good testing, Bloke :thumbup:

If you haven't fixed the chip yet, please chop that cable - using good edge section - to see how the edge degrade.

(jokingly) Where are the Vanax's 2 friends?

Nothing to fix Luong! :p

No worries, I’ll chop into it but it’s blood hard and I don’t think I’ll be able to chop right through in one hit but I’ll try.

I got some bamboo skewers to chop like you suggested too so stay tuned.

I’m really enjoying your knife mate and I hope you don’t expect to ever see it again. Ah, hahaha! :)

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Just photoshop (or for real) the knife got stomped by a kangaroo :p Me kangaroo no want back knife.

..
Nothing to fix Luong! :p

No worries, I’ll try to chop it but it’s blood hard and I don’t think I’ll be able to chop right through but I’ll try.

I got some bamboo skewers to chop like you suggested too so stay tuned.

I’m really enjoying your knife mate and I hope you don’t expect to ever see it again. Ah, hahaha! :)

[Bloke]

Just photoshop (or for real) the knife got stomped by a kangaroo :p Me kangaroo no want back knife.

Ah, hahaha! :)

Maybe an elephant, can’t see our biggest Red Boomer hurting this.

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I filled-up my dewar today. So this weekend, I will ht 3 vanax stick tang 4.25" BnT/Util blades. I plan to normal + abuse (maybe destruction) tests one blade (390F/200c tempered). Perhaps easier for a maker to conduct this type of test.

[Surfingringo]

I’ve been playing with Luong’s knife for a month now and I’m enjoying Vanax SC with this particular heat treat immensely.

The knife came finished at a rough guess on a 120grit belt....

It’s been quiet hot here with temps going to 35 deg C so I propped the knife in a fast food container and wrapped the blade with tissue paper, wet it with salt water and added 1/4” of saltwater to the container to set up a wicking affect with the handle staying dry and left it on the same sill for a week adding water daily so that it didn’t evaporate. This had zero effect on the blade and it still whittled hair and that’s where the knife’s stayed when not used I just add more briny so it’s consistently wet and it’s not been rinsed. It’s still there as I type with zero effect after a month.

I find both of these remarks very relevant to the discussion. I have found the performance of Vanax to be extremely impressive so far but if we are ONLY looking at edge performance then I don't think it's the most amazing steel in the world. The miracle of this steel is that it is showing edge performance in line with higher carbide steels like Elmax (possibly better) while showing 100% CORROSION RESISTANCE. It's that level of corrosion resistance in a high performance steel that puts Vanax into the "super steel" category IMO.

Regarding corrosion resistance, both of the above quotes are quite meaningful. First of all, that is a fairly rough finish on the test knife which should make it more prone to the effects of a corrosive environment. Since all of the Vanax I have tested has been at a higher grit finish, I think that this is even more confirmation that this steel is not going to rust. The second quote is even more confirmation of the same. A high sharpness, hair whittling edge like that is VERY prone to corrosive breakdown. Where I live, I can lose a hair whittling edge in the course of a day just from exposure to the salt air and humidity. The fact that this steel was still exhibiting that level performance after DAYS (possibly weeks?) of submersion in salt water, along with all the other data I have observed in my own testing, leads me to believe that this steel should be considered another "Rust Proof" option along with H1 and lc200n.

[TomAiello]

This thread is killing me. How can a normal guy get his hands on a Vanax knife. Are any of you guys selling them? Or know another good maker?

[argyle1812]

This thread is killing me. How can a normal guy get his hands on a Vanax knife. Are any of you guys selling them? Or know another good maker?

I know that Shannon Steel Labs has made a few. Check him out on Bladeforums or Instagram.

[Bloke]

I think Lance summed it up. :cool:

This blade is coming up to six weeks in concentrated saltwater without the slightest hint of corrosion.

I wonder how similar the heat treats are on the blades we’re playing with?

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In PM, Chad shared vanax ht recipe. Appreciated. I indicated that I won't make a baseline for comparison because it is excellent.

IMO (thereby subjective), there shouldn't be a discernible performance differences between ht processes, especially at same hrc. Depend on tasks - higher HRC could supports thinner sharpening geometry (dps & edge shoulder). Take M4 with good ht as an example, can we tell the performance differences between HRC: 60, 61, 62, 63? No for most of the time but sometime yes, right

I think Lance summed it up. :cool:

This blade is coming up to six weeks in concentrated saltwater without the slightest hint of corrosion.

I wonder how similar the heat treats are on the blades we’re playing with?

[Xplorer]

I generally agree with Luong. As long as the HT protocol temps and soak times are within the acceptable range for the steel, the differences in edge characteristics will be somewhat hard to decipher in real-world cutting. The differences are generally subtle. When heat treated within an appropriate range of temps we see more difference in sharpening ease and corrosion resistance than differences in edge holding and stability.

However..HT can go badly if the parameters of the recipe are outside of the acceptable range. I was recently told of the details regarding a well known heat treating shop (I will not name) that has been struggling to get Vanax properly hard, and has had some HRC results in the low 50's. When I found out the details of the recipe I was very disappointed with that shop and not at all surprised at the results. There is a fairly wide range of HT protocol options that will work well, but like all steels, if someone decides to go outside of that acceptable range the results can be disappointing.

CK

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I've a 61rc vanax stick tang 4.25" blade(no handle) ready for abusive tests. Quite iffy to have time to test wear resistance, so I am thinking - just slow mo video pressure/baton cut a dried cooked pork rib bone and then 16D nail with 18dps edge. Show macro pics of impacted edge sections. Then pry/bend until break or past 90 degrees.

Thoughts?

[Bloke]

I've a 61rc vanax stick tang 4.25" blade(no handle) ready for abusive tests. Quite iffy to have time to test wear resistance, so I am thinking - just slow mo video pressure/baton cut a dried cooked pork rib bone and then 16D nail with 18dps edge. Show macro pics of impacted edge sections. Then pry/bend until break or past 90 degrees.

Thoughts?

Sounds good to me Luong. :)

I’d be very interested in seeing any destructive testing, particularly slow mo’ footage. :cool: