Spyderco/Farid K2

[Laethageal]

If i'm right, Farid needs to do some testing on the prototype he received to make sure it's on par with the spec he and Spyderco expected. Since he had asurgery 2 days ago he an't perform the test at the moment.

[tvenuto]

Wow, a gorgeous knife and the workmanship looks top notch. This one doesn't "speak to me" like some other upcoming designs, but I imagine there will be a lot of adoring owners for this one.

[Ankerson]

I'm not Farid, but I'll share. Farid said he wanted a folding knife that would be large enough for many tasks, be reliable if away from support (out doors for a long time) and have good edge retention as sharpening equipment might not be easily available. He felt the combination of blade shape, Titanium, (for lighter and stronger) "Reeve-Integral-Lock" and 10V would provide the best options for this situation.

sal

Hi Sal,

I concur. :)

Having tested a number of different A11 steels personally I don't see any problems choosing CPM 10V.

Jim

Jim we have been friends for a long time and we both have used high end steels and done more testing than most people in this industry at the end of the day, the 10v K2 is not a tool you would put through a car door, it is not a tool you would abuse, it is on the other hand a precision manufactured high performance cutting tool made of some of the best materials available to us.
Farid

Yep,

In the end it's still a folder. :)

Jim

[3rdGenRigger]

If my budget allows I'll definitely try to find one of these...I like trying different steels, and I really like the wavy cutout for the lockbar. So many knives, and so little wallet space lol.

[Liquid Cobra]

If my budget allows I'll definitely try to find one of these...I like trying different steels, and I really like the wavy cutout for the lockbar. So many knives, and so little wallet space lol.

So little wallet space? Lol, my wallet has too much space! There's no cash in it!

[Philo Beddoe]

Sal and I have made it quite clear the reasons these material choices were made.
That's all.

Sounds good to me..I will be buying one as soon as it becomes available..

I don't think you owe anyone a explanation..especially to someone who comes on here and starts criticizing your/Spydercos work before they even have the knife in hand..

The #1 Spydie for me is the Millie, I've been carrying/using one for about 12 years non-stop..but I know that some don't like it(tip down carry only/size is too big etc.)and I'm totally cool with that..there are several Spydies that people go gaga over that I don't like..my second favorite Spydie is the Manix 2 XL..

The one thing I see from the pics is that's the K2 is a big knife which is something I do like..score one point for the K2..

I also don't think it will be cheap..Big knife made out of Titanium+10V+Taiwan made= not cheap..

If it comes in at a $400 or less out the door price we will be doing good..the upside is that the Taiwan made Spydies have amazing F&F..

[faridknives]

Sal and I have made it quite clear the reasons these material choices were made.
That's all.

Sounds good to me..I will be buying one as soon as it becomes available..

I don't think you owe anyone a explanation..especially to someone who comes on here and starts criticizing your/Spydercos work before they even have the knife in hand..

The #1 Spydie for me is the Millie, I've been carrying/using one for about 12 years non-stop..but I know that some don't like it(tip down carry only/size is too big etc.)and I'm totally cool with that..there are several Spydies that people go gaga over that I don't like..my second favorite Spydie is the Manix 2 XL..

The one thing I see from the pics is that's the K2 is a big knife which is something I do like..score one point for the K2..

I also don't think it will be cheap..Big knife made out of Titanium+10V+Taiwan made= not cheap..

If it comes in at a $400 or less out the door price we will be doing good..the upside is that the Taiwan made Spydies have amazing F&F..

I am sure when you and everyone else gets a 10v K2 you will all be happy with the knife, you will become use to it's performance. Thanks for your support.
F

[Laethageal]

I was wondering, anyone else got experience with 10v and ZDP-189 that could give me a comparison on "chippiness" of both? Particulary thinking about you Farid since you are the maker of this one, but also Jim and maybe Sal, or anyone else in fact. I know Cliff is supposed to give it a try, but many of you out there also have a lot of experience with steel.
Since Farid warn it's not a knife design to cut open a car door, I guess it might be prone to breaking/chipping if abused. But from my experience the same is to be expected from ZDP. Which one in your opinion is the worst?

[faridknives]

I was wondering, anyone else got experience with 10v and ZDP-189 that could give me a comparison on "chippiness" of both? Particulary thinking about you Farid since you are the maker of this one, but also Jim and maybe Sal, or anyone else in fact. I know Cliff is supposed to give it a try, but many of you out there also have a lot of experience with steel.
Since Farid warn it's not a knife design to cut open a car door, I guess it might be prone to breaking/chipping if abused. But from my experience the same is to be expected from ZDP. Which one in your opinion is the worst?

I have never used ZDP-189, I have experience with CPM-10v, ZDP cannot be put in the same category as 10v, one is stainless the other tool steel, one has 20% cr, on the other hand the other has 10% Vanadium, they are very different steels. If you look at the YouTube clip (I have added the link earlier) you will see the 10v knife I made work just fine, I will say this again, a knife of this calibre was never designed and built so you could abuse it but I like testing steels. Use the 10v K2 as a high performance tool without abuse, it is a precision made cutting instrument, it is 63RC and it is not just the RC you should be looking at here, it has 10% vanadium, it is a high vanadium tool steel. I would like to put this knife through some cutting, I have called a friend of mine and hopefully in the next 10 days I am able to get to him and I will test it, until then I think the YouTube clip should speak a thousand words.
Farid

[Laethageal]

The video shows some cutting, but we don't get to know how it endure this torture. Edge might be shipped as much as half an inch deep and we wouldn't see it since the resolution is low and we get no close shot of the blade.
I'm not looking to abuse the K2 if ever I get it, but if 10v is more prone to chipping then ZDP I might wait some before getting it. If one the other hand it is close to ZDP, or even less chippy, the added edge retention make it perfect for me.

[faridknives]

The video shows some cutting, but we don't get to know how it endure this torture. Edge might be shipped as much as half an inch deep and we wouldn't see it since the resolution is low and we get no close shot of the blade.
I'm not looking to abuse the K2 if ever I get it, but if 10v is more prone to chipping then ZDP I might wait some before getting it. If one the other hand it is close to ZDP, or even less chippy, the added edge retention make it perfect for me.

I don't have any other movie clips to show you.
If 'any steel' out there is heat-treated to a certain RC is found to be a little chippy by the 'user' one way to still enjoy the tool is to change the cutting angle, it would make the edge stronger, 'But it also has to do with the user as well' . I compete at BladeSports championships and I can promise you if I handed over my competition chopper to just anyone' there is a good chance they will damage it.
I am not saying you cannot use a knife properly, what I am saying is it also has to do with the user as well.

Different steels need to be understood, you need to understand.
The most indestructible steel I keep in stock is 17/4PH, it is also what my mountaineering ice axe is made from, it is manufactured for a purpose but it wont hold an edge well at all, this knife is manufactured for long lasting edge retention, light weight, reliable, high end materials, easy to clean something which does not require sharpening on a regular basis.
F

[tvenuto]

I don't think you owe anyone a explanation..especially to someone who comes on here and starts criticizing your/Spydercos work before they even have the knife in hand..

If we are open to compliments should we not also be open to criticisms? I don't think anyone is "owed" anything, but I also don't think that well-reasoned questions should be met with vitriol just because they are critical. This forum offers a unique opportunity to discuss things, but only if everyone is allowed to speak their mind in a cordial fashion.

[Cliff Stamp]

.. if 10v is more prone to chipping then ZDP

The problem with this question is that what makes a knife chip isn't one thing. It is possible to have two steels and in one case or type of use one steel will chip and another will not, but then change the type of use and which one chips changes also. The issue is that chipping can be caused by more than one thing (so if it happens depends on more than one material property, the two main ones are ductility and impact/fracture toughness) and what is worse trying to generalize based on steels is prone to problems because the performance seen in a particular steel is very broad depending on who is using it and how they are using it.

In general people will make statements about steels which if they were not about steels it would be known the logic is very poor to even absurd. For example if you see a Canadian drive a truck can you then conclude that all Canadian's drive trucks, no and this is pretty silly, but people do that with steels all they time and make the equivalent of what would be racist type comments. They use one steel in one knife from one company and make broad generalizations about that steel in general which are completely unfounded.

Now in regards to 10V and ZDP-189, both tend to be :

-harder than average, ZDP-189 can/will exceed 10V as it tops out at ~70 HRC
-very high carbide volumes and are among the highest wear steels being used

both of these in general reduce toughness so neither are going to have much chip resistance either from being deformed significantly (they will tend to snap rather than take a set) or from impact (they will tend to snap). They are both among the most brittle of the stainless and tool steels being used. ZDP-189 only being exceeded by things like S125V and 10V only by things like 15V (obviously) and the carbide replacements like 121REX.

Now if you give me an example of what you want to do and what you do with ZDP-189 at a particular finish and it isn't damaged I can readily see (loosely) if 10V can do the same. Based on the nature of the materials I would be confident if you can use ZDP-189 at a typical hardening and you don't see it as being too fragile then 10V isn't likely to be either as they are very similar as noted in the above. Or I can just put a 10V blade in with the Elmax blade and you see yourself. I would be very surprised if you found one to be in a different class in regards to fragility than the other.

[MacLaren]

I don't think you owe anyone a explanation..especially to someone who comes on here and starts criticizing your/Spydercos work before they even have the knife in hand..

If we are open to compliments should we not also be open to criticisms? I don't think anyone is "owed" anything, but I also don't think that well-reasoned questions should be met with vitriol just because they are critical. This forum offers a unique opportunity to discuss things, but only if everyone is allowed to speak their mind in a cordial fashion.

I don't buy that. Not in this case. Not only did Farid explain things, but Sal did as well. And quite frankly if whats already been explained doesn't suit ya, then don't buy one. Seriously, after all this if one wants to criticize then one should also expect for members to take up for Farid as well. In a cordial fashion that is. Just like Philo stated.

[Johnnie1801]

Here's a simple explanation about CPM 10V from Phil Wilson posted on Bladeforums back in 2007

10V is pretty much in the realm of a speciality steel. I have been using it for 15 years or so and recommend it for applications where sharpening in the field is inconvienent and the user wants a knife that will hold an edge a long time on abrasive materials like elk hide, hair and pig bristles. 10V is not stainless and takes more care than say 30V or CPM 154 or VG10. The knives I make from 10V are flat ground to a thin edge +/- 0.010 behind the edge. This makes for easy sharpening with a silicon carbide or diamond stone. The edge holding on 10v is due to the higher hardness 62-64 and the large percentage of vanadium carbides. Think of 10V as sort of a super charged A2. 10V is hard to work with for custom makers, hard to finish, grind and takes a very high temp to heat treat. As a result you will not find any factory knives with this steel as far as I know and only a few custom guys feel that it is worth the trouble and extra expense. As far as toughness, at the high end hardness and a thin blade it does take some care and does not lend itself to prying or forcefull working around bones or chopping. On the other hand the bending strength and edge strength is high enough for a slicer on tough materials. I have made a few fillet knives out of 10V for my own uses and have had no issues with them other than they will rust in salt water while you are looking at them.. Phil

[sal]

This is, I believe, an unusual forum in that there is a very high degree of respect and courtesy held by all. This becomes difficult when one is personally involved whether it be opinion or design. Sometnes "Igor" sneaks out of the box or one might be "smidgeon" defensive in such cases.

It is important for optimal communication that we are all aware of this behavior for our group. In this manner, we may all attain optimal communication. Sometimes one's communication "style" might apear to be negative or arrogant due to their personal history, world location or ??. I do not believe there are negative spirits engaging in conversation here. Taz is a very effective "SWAT team" in rooting out negative spirits. She has a good understanding of the nature of troublemakers.

Criticism is a good thing that we always invite that we may improve.

Since we're all friends here and we respect each other, we can together help improve the Spyderco breed. In my mind, we're all assets. If we find that a model has a problem, we fix it. Few designs are "right" out of the chute. That's why we make many protos, show them at meets and shows, etc. The goal is create the best possible tool for you. If there is an improvement needed on any design, we'll make it. The Karahawk is being improved because of criticism I received on forums. If there is a improvement possible on the K2, I'm sure both Spyderco and Farid would opt to refine. It's important that we don't lose sight of this evolution in our discussions. That's one of the reasons that Spyderco makes such good product...or for that matter, tries to be a fair company....for you.

So, with Farid's permission, I'm sending a K2 to Mastiff, Jim and Cliff to invite their thoughts. I've carried and used one quite a bit. We think it's a very fine tool and unlike anything we make, but if we can make it better, why not. Rebecca will send them out next week.

sal

[faridknives]

This is, I believe, an unusual forum in that there is a very high degree of respect and courtesy held by all. This becomes difficult when one is personally involved whether it be opinion or design. Sometnes "Igor" sneaks out of the box or one might be "smidgeon" defensive in such cases.

It is important for optimal communication that we are all aware of this behavior for our group. In this manner, we may all attain optimal communication. Sometimes one's communication "style" might apear to be negative or arrogant due to their personal history, world location or ??. I do not believe there are negative spirits engaging in conversation here. Taz is a very effective "SWAT team" in rooting out negative spirits. She has a good understanding of the nature of troublemakers.

Criticism is a good thing that we always invite that we may improve.

Since we're all friends here and we respect each other, we can together help improve the Spyderco breed. In my mind, we're all assets. If we find that a model has a problem, we fix it. Few designs are "right" out of the chute. That's why we make many protos, show them at meets and shows, etc. The goal is create the best possible tool for you. If there is an improvement needed on any design, we'll make it. The Karahawk is being improved because of criticism I received on forums. If there is a improvement possible on the K2, I'm sure both Spyderco and Farid would opt to refine. It's important that we don't lose sight of this evolution in our discussions. That's one of the reasons that Spyderco makes such good product...or for that matter, tries to be a fair company....for you.

So, with Farid's permission, I'm sending a K2 to Mastiff, Jim and Cliff to invite their thoughts. I've carried and used one quite a bit. We think it's a very fine tool and unlike anything we make, but if we can make it better, why not. Rebecca will send them out next week.

sal

I don't see any problems with samples being sent out since I cannot do my own test right away.

But I will say this, all this has been due to Cliff Stamp who has disrespected me on YouTube and other forums and now he is here to do the same. How he is NOT yet banned from this forum I will never understand.

Good day,

Farid

[sal]

Hi Farid,

Everyone here has good information to contribute. I've known Cliff a long time and I do not believe he is trying to cause problems as much as his "quircky" scientific mind is trying to be scientific. I know my personality and communication is sometimes is offensive to others. It is not my intent to do so, but my communication "style". I know Cliff likes your design and he is being inquisitive as to your your choice of steel. If you remember, I also questioned your choice of steel. It's a great design Farid, let's all enjoy it.

sal

[tvenuto]

I don't buy that. Not in this case. Not only did Farid explain things, but Sal did as well. And quite frankly if whats already been explained doesn't suit ya, then don't buy one. Seriously, after all this if one wants to criticize then one should also expect for members to take up for Farid as well. In a cordial fashion that is. Just like Philo stated.

I don't see what possible need there is to "take up" for Farid. No one said that Farid was wrong, or a bad person, or a bad knife designer, etc. No one said that this knife was bad, or incorrectly designed, or that anyone who likes or buys this knife is wrong. All that happened was one person asked what the design intent was. That person gave a reason for asking, which was that, in this one person's opinion, the chosen steel did not appear to compliment the other features. There are many potential answers to this question. I don't think Farid was wrong for not answering, as many have stated, that is his option. I do think it limits the discussion, but you don't see me demanding a response. However, in my humble opinion, it IS wrong to treat questions such as these with vitriol and thereby put pressure on those to keep these sorts of questions to themselves. That's just me, and I'm ok if some don't agree with it, but I felt the need to speak my piece on it.

I think this forum is very unique, in that almost everyone is respectful, helpful, and trustworthy. A guy just recently started a thread to mail out his rare and expensive knife to anyone who asked him to! Where else on the internet would you have this much trust in people you've never met? In that spirit, I feel that we should keep an open mind about why questions or criticisms are presented, and always see them as an opportunity to further the discussion.

Edit: Ha, being a slow writer gets me again. Sal's post makes mine superfluous, but I don't mind leaving it. What a company! :spyder: :spyder: :spyder:

[sal]

Wisely spoken Tvenuto and you are certainly not superfluous. I'm proud to have attitudes such as yours present here.

sal