CPM-S35VN and CrimsonTideShooter test

[Evil D]

Yeah it was a slight rant because I can't post on a public forum what I really think.

Feel free to PM me what you really think, i don't mind reading it :D

[Evil D]

I know what the placebo effect is and have extensive training and experience in measurement bias, but still I have to take extensive precautions or it will easily influence, or even dominate results and again I am actually trained to eliminate it and it is still by far the largest problem I have to deal with in any performance comparison.

In the car world we call this the "butt dyno" because surely every little mod you do to your engine has to make it faster.

One guy goes out and buys this new gimmicky spark plug and goes around saying his car is soooo much faster now. Placebo effect is what makes the world revolve.

[CrimsonTideShooter]

In the car world we call this the "butt dyno" because surely every little mod you do to your engine has to make it faster.

One guy goes out and buys this new gimmicky spark plug and goes around saying his car is soooo much faster now. Placebo effect is what makes the world revolve.

Not everyone falls for the placebo effect though. I am one of those people. I am a huge skeptic though.

[chuck_roxas45]

Not everyone falls for the placebo effect though. I am one of those people. I am a huge skeptic though.

Yep, this is precisely why is it important for us to see for ourselves what is what and not just to rely on the hype.

[Evil D]

Not everyone falls for the placebo effect though. I am one of those people. I am a huge skeptic though.

I'm with you, very skeptical especially when hype is involved. It took me the longest time to buy a Paramilitary 2 because everyone acted like it was God's gift to knives. Even the first time i handled one i wasn't impressed, but the second time i held one, something clicked.

Some people have ragged on S30V, i don't see the problem with it. It does tend to lose a hair popping edge rather quickly but it has a nice stout working edge after that.

ZDP was another one...people claim it to be the hardest thing on Earth to sharpen...i don't really think it's any harder than S30V.

[MIL-DOT]

Placebo effect is what makes the world revolve.

And all this time, I thought it was Fat Bottomed Girls :D :p

[Ankerson]

Hype, yes. The problem is that some consumers get way over zealous and as a manufacturer it is not always so easy to reign someone in. For example it is all over the internets that sharpening H1 increases the edge retention. Spyderco has never claimed this, but it is hard to fault them for people running wild with the idea. I have mentioned in a couple of places that no data from Spyderco ever supported this, nor was it even implied - but it is like trying soap up the ocean with a shamwow.

With any new steel there were be a few guys who run wild, and there will also be makers/manufacturers who decide that it is time to go crazy with allegations. I have spoke out against this before, but I also have some sympathy for them because it is not the easiest thing in the world to explain to someone who is not really into knives what it means to move from S30V to S35VN and thus you end up with "it is just a better steel" which for a lot of people is what they want to hear.

The other thing is that the placebo effect is can easily dominate any results. For example Mike Stewart has spoke out very strong against S30V noting that the average user can not sharpen it properly and thus the performance is always very low compared to what it can achieve, but S35VN solves this problem completely thus it is a great steel.

Now I would dispute this strongly for any number of reasons :

-the change in total carbide volume is only 0.5%

-niobium is still a very hard carbide, it is softer than vanadium carbide but harder than almost all sharpening abrasives (it is even harder than silicon carbide)

-there is still quite a large amount of vanadium carbide, to be specific the amount was reduced by just 7% of the total carbide volume

There is no way given these small changes that the material properties could be so dramatic and S35VN is wonderful and easy to sharpen while S30V is difficult to impossible. But regardless, if you put 20 people in a room and gave them all one knife and then another and told them the first knife was very difficult to sharpen and the next one had a steel which was reformulated to make it very easy to sharpen then 19/20 people are going to note that the second one was indeed a vast improvement if they accept you as an authority.

I know what the placebo effect is and have extensive training and experience in measurement bias, but still I have to take extensive precautions or it will easily influence, or even dominate results and again I am actually trained to eliminate it and it is still by far the largest problem I have to deal with in any performance comparison.

Cliff,

Yep very true and I agree with you. :)

I read that S30V thing too over on that forum and started laughing. LOL

S30V is NOT hard to sharpen and it will as you know take one heck of an edge.

I have shaved my face with a Military in S30V a few times, that's my whole face because my razor had stopped working.

[Zenith]

Some very good information has been presented in this thread and boy have I learned a lot.

The one thing that gets me, well that I have learned, there is a lot of hype surrounding new knife models and steels.

I was the one that posted the quote of Mike Stewart (someone contacted me in that regard and gave some good information for me) but I do agree with Ankerson and Cliff that S30V is not that difficult to sharpen. In fact many people that complain about a steel not getting sharp dont realise it has a lot to do with skill and developing those skills till you get a knife sharp. They quit before they get any results.

Ankerson: S30V razor huh? Been using my CPM-M4 military for that :)

[Ankerson]

Some very good information has been presented in this thread and boy have I learned a lot.

The one thing that gets me, well that I have learned, there is a lot of hype surrounding new knife models and steels.

I was the one that posted the quote of Mike Stewart (someone contacted me in that regard and gave some good information for me) but I do agree with Ankerson and Cliff that S30V is not that difficult to sharpen. In fact many people that complain about a steel not getting sharp dont realise it has a lot to do with skill and developing those skills till you get a knife sharp. They quit before they get any results.

Ankerson: S30V razor huh? Been using my CPM-M4 military for that :)

Yeah I did it twice without sharpening between, not something I would want to use on a daily basis though as a razor, but it can be done and S30V will take a VERY fine edge.

[Cliff Stamp]

S30V is NOT hard to sharpen and it will as you know take one heck of an edge.

It is hard to know what the problem is when you have so little information, but the majority of the time people note this issue they are trying to change an angle on a knife (remove damage, etc.) with a very fine stone and seeing no progress. It also happens if they make a big jump in steels, for example Bark River uses steels like A2, AEB-L, etc. which are very low carbide steels and very easy to grind. If you sharpen S30V with the same number of passes on a stone then nothing happens.

Of course if you micro-bevel then grindability really isn't an issue unless the edge is getting damaged. If you use an 80 grit "lobster" waterstone to set the edge on your knife and then elevate the edge angle 1-3 degrees and polish the microbevel then even S90V sharpens very quickly because all you are honing with the higher grit finishes is a little strip of metal about 0.1 mm wide so it will polish with just a few passes on the stone. The same can be done with a convex bevel by just altering the pressure on the medium if you are using some kind of paper+pad.

By the issue that amuses me is how S30V was great and now S30V is apparently horrible but a very minor change to its properties, which is on the order of a percent, suddenly makes a huge difference. Quite frankly the differences between them are so slightly that the batch variances are likely to cause them to over lap. Most steel families are like this, 440B for example has enough batch variance to overlap 440A and 440C.

[Ankerson]

It is hard to know what the problem is when you have so little information, but the majority of the time people note this issue they are trying to change an angle on a knife (remove damage, etc.) with a very fine stone and seeing no progress. It also happens if they make a big jump in steels, for example Bark River uses steels like A2, AEB-L, etc. which are very low carbide steels and very easy to grind. If you sharpen S30V with the same number of passes on a stone then nothing happens.

Of course if you micro-bevel then grindability really isn't an issue unless the edge is getting damaged. If you use an 80 grit "lobster" waterstone to set the edge on your knife and then elevate the edge angle 1-3 degrees and polish the microbevel then even S90V sharpens very quickly because all you are honing with the higher grit finishes is a little strip of metal about 0.1 mm wide so it will polish with just a few passes on the stone. The same can be done with a convex bevel by just altering the pressure on the medium if you are using some kind of paper+pad.

By the issue that amuses me is how S30V was great and now S30V is apparently horrible but a very minor change to its properties, which is on the order of a percent, suddenly makes a huge difference. Quite frankly the differences between them are so slightly that the batch variances are likely to cause them to over lap. Most steel families are like this, 440B for example has enough batch variance to overlap 440A and 440C.

It could be what they are using to sharpen their knives as you said, that could have a lot to do with it.

I have had some really horrid S30V.... Won't go into the makers, it was so bad that I didn't even get anymore knives in S30V for a long time....

Then I tried a Military in S30V, 1st really good HTed S30V blade I owned.

Yeah I find that to be VERY funny that now S30V sucks and has all these issues since some are pushing S35VN when about a year ago it was GREAT.

Lots of BS Marketing and Politics going on in the knife industry and i guess that will never change.

And the really funny thing is those Starry eyed fan boys just eat that crap up...... ROLF

Some need to take off those rose colored glasses....

[maxbelg]

By the issue that amuses me is how S30V was great and now S30V is apparently horrible.....

Do you mean S30V was great and S35VN is horrible.....

I haven't noticed any difference in edge-holding between S30V and S35VN and from your information don't expect to find any difference. However I though subjectively that it was easier to sharpen (i.e. took less strokes) but of course this was not a double-blind placebo controlled trial. :p

The way S35VN itself and some makers using this steel are "attacked" on the internet astounds me. A person rolls an edge and suddenly S35VN is MUCH worse than S30V and makers should immediately explain how this could have happened. If there was a problem with a particular knife (whatever steel was used) it should be sent back to the manufacturer for testing. Generalizations on the steel itself seem to be meaningless to me and allegations toward the manufacturers (and the testers) seem pointless and irritating. :confused:

Thanks again for bringing some sense and logic to this discussion Cliff! :)

[chuck_roxas45]

Yeah I find that to be VERY funny that now S30V sucks and has all these issues since some are pushing S35VN when about a year ago it was GREAT.

But how can it be bad when (insert knife god's name here) himself recommends it and will be using it exclusively? :p

[Ankerson]

But how can it be bad when (insert knife god's name here) himself recommends it and will be using it exclusively? :p

Shiny Footprints....

Telling myself ..... Shiny Footprints....

Start to type.... Then have to remember Shiny footprints.....

Get up from the computer, sit back down..... Remember Shiny Footprints....

Ok I got my Coffee... Check... Smokes... Check..... Oh that's right, Have to remember Shiny Footprints....

[rosconey]

either ever maker i can find (spyderco ,strider,boker,crk ect ect)has been sold a bill of goods on this steel-
or its just some early ht issues -imho

[Donut]

I think the important thing to notice on these tests:

If you value your phone book,
keep it away from Jdavis/Crimsontideshooter! :D

[Ankerson]

either ever maker i can find (spyderco ,strider,boker,crk ect ect)has been sold a bill of goods on this steel-
or its just some early ht issues -imho

I believe there is just more testing to be done at various HT recipes and Hardness before any conclusions can be made.

[xavierdoc]

Although my contribution to the debate is purely anecdotal, I have posted a REVIEW of my Native 5 in the review section of Bladeforums. Didn't seem to be any point duplicating it here.

[Cliff Stamp]

Do you mean S30V was great and S35VN is horrible.....

I was not stating an opinion, just noting how the perspective in S30V has shifted dramatically due to the promotion of a new replacement and suddenly there are problems with the steel when a few years ago it was perfect and these issues are huge and impossible to deal with - but S35VN (a small refinement) is wonderful. It is like saying that the new Phil Wilson production is way too overpriced and you would never even consider it, but if the cost was reduced by $5 you would buy a dozen of them immediately as it would be a great value.

[CrimsonTideShooter]

I was not stating an opinion, just noting how the perspective in S30V has shifted dramatically due to the promotion of a new replacement and suddenly there are problems with the steel when a few years ago it was perfect and these issues are huge and impossible to deal with - but S35VN (a small refinement) is wonderful. It is like saying that the new Phil Wilson production is way too overpriced and you would never even consider it, but if the cost was reduced by $5 you would buy a dozen of them immediately as it would be a great value.

S30V has never gotten the praise it deserves in my opinion. It is an excellent steel in almost every respect, but so often you hear terrible things about it. Doesn't make sense.