mmmm....interesting :spyder:sal wrote:Hi Joe,
We have plans for B75 s well.
I might add as a teaase that Carpenter mixed up a small batch of a "special" B75 that we'll be playing with.
sal
Carpenter CTS-XHP Steel
This sounds like you will not have any knife with this steel.sal wrote:Hi Vassili.
We're not likely to switch "all production" to any one steel. I like the different flavors available. We have 5 or 6 more Carpenter steels to "play with".
We are also loyal to Crucible. They make excellent product and they've always been good to work with.
sal
You may lose your competing advantage here - this is American steel so easy available for every other manufacturer. Once it would be learned by more people that this one is the best steel (thanks to you limited run) - no one will wait for Spyderco to came with new model in a year. At least I will buy any new knife with CTS-XHP once I see it available.
It seems like surprise news and current push is toward M4 - this has certain momentum which is hard to overcome, but I believe that this is new real natural super steel on the market - CPM 440V, ZDP189 and now CTS-CHP (440XH).
Hope you will be leading knife market as usual.
Thanks, Vassili.
I think you overestimate the AFI market and underestimate trends.nozh2002 wrote:This sounds like you will not have any knife with this steel.
You may lose your competing advantage here - this is American steel so easy available for every other manufacturer. Once it would be learned by more people that this one is the best steel (thanks to you limited run) - no one will wait for Spyderco to came with new model in a year. At least I will buy any new knife with CTS-XHP once I see it available.
It seems like surprise news and current push is toward M4 - this has certain momentum which is hard to overcome, but I believe that this is new real natural super steel on the market - CPM 440V, ZDP189 and now CTS-CHP (440XH).
Hope you will be leading knife market as usual.
Thanks, Vassili.
If steels were rock stars s30v would be like Bruce Springsteen. Even non-knife people know it's tops and they have never heard of Carpenter. That doesn't mean it's the best by any stretch.
I'd love to know how much of Spyderco's business is produced by the Dragonfly, Native, Delica, and Endura because I bet it boarders on the 90% range.
Most people have been using "crappy" VG10 too, lol. :p It's for this reason that I applaud yourconvictions but question your sales logic and assumptions.
For a while I got "hung up" in the super steels, to the extent I thought how "generic" VG-10, S30V and 154 CM was. Then I looked around at other knife makers and realized how great those steels are (VG-10, S30V and 154 CM) and that the S90V, the Carpenter Steels, ZDP-189 are all exotics. We are fortunate to be able to buy knives made of cutting edge (had to use the term - pun intended) steels like this.
So it's quandry. I've learned to really appreciate the good steels. They are top notch and most of the time easier to sharpen. They make great knives and I might even prefer to use them for the hard work. But I do enjoy, tremendously, the exotics. Ever notice how you hold your CF handled, S90V knife? It's like a piece of art. Okay I know that's crazy - it's a knife and should be handled like any other knife, but I do tend to admire it allot.
Anyway I've come to the conclusion that all Spyderco knives are very good. I buy each for different reasons and while I'd like to say I use them all I will admit I've got a lille bit of the collector mentality in me.
Thank you Spyderco for giving us product that creates discussions like this. Yuo should all be proud of how even what you consider to be your core or base product is far ahead of the competition and that you produce such exotics that we go crazy for them. And you do this all at a price point the common person can own own more than one of your knives. We have become walking billboards of your product - another brilliant way to market and position your company. I can't say enough great things about the way Spyderco operates and the products they product.
So it's quandry. I've learned to really appreciate the good steels. They are top notch and most of the time easier to sharpen. They make great knives and I might even prefer to use them for the hard work. But I do enjoy, tremendously, the exotics. Ever notice how you hold your CF handled, S90V knife? It's like a piece of art. Okay I know that's crazy - it's a knife and should be handled like any other knife, but I do tend to admire it allot.
Anyway I've come to the conclusion that all Spyderco knives are very good. I buy each for different reasons and while I'd like to say I use them all I will admit I've got a lille bit of the collector mentality in me.
Thank you Spyderco for giving us product that creates discussions like this. Yuo should all be proud of how even what you consider to be your core or base product is far ahead of the competition and that you produce such exotics that we go crazy for them. And you do this all at a price point the common person can own own more than one of your knives. We have become walking billboards of your product - another brilliant way to market and position your company. I can't say enough great things about the way Spyderco operates and the products they product.
Agreed. When vg10 and 154cm are base steels and cpm-s30v can be had for $50 it's hard to see much competition.
Heck, most "base" Spydie steels are some other makers "premium" which fetch $100+ retail. Exotics really come to shine with acute professionl sharping and since most people have a very relative perspective on "sharp" I guess there's no point for them to appreciate s90v and such (beyond placebo performance at least).
I won't ever doubt Spyderco's commitment to afi's and new exotic materials. I can only assume the steel choices are nearly endless so my desire for m4 is outdated while Sal and co are testing things that don't exist commercially yet. They are the true Afi's =)
Heck, most "base" Spydie steels are some other makers "premium" which fetch $100+ retail. Exotics really come to shine with acute professionl sharping and since most people have a very relative perspective on "sharp" I guess there's no point for them to appreciate s90v and such (beyond placebo performance at least).
I won't ever doubt Spyderco's commitment to afi's and new exotic materials. I can only assume the steel choices are nearly endless so my desire for m4 is outdated while Sal and co are testing things that don't exist commercially yet. They are the true Afi's =)
Most people will be happy with $1 crap knife made in Communist China.Blerv wrote:I think you overestimate the AFI market and underestimate trends.
If steels were rock stars s30v would be like Bruce Springsteen. Even non-knife people know it's tops and they have never heard of Carpenter. That doesn't mean it's the best by any stretch.
I'd love to know how much of Spyderco's business is produced by the Dragonfly, Native, Delica, and Endura because I bet it boarders on the 90% range.
Most people have been using "crappy" VG10 too, lol. :p It's for this reason that I applaud yourconvictions but question your sales logic and assumptions.
I am not talking about volumes and profit. I do not think that push toward CPM M4 is targeting volume sales as well, simple because it is not stainless.
You obviously have perfect sales logic and much smarter and better overall etc... I am not sure why Sal even has all this effort to bring limited amount or people who can value good steel.
This is, probably, about company which provide best product. And I know few other companies who trying this as well staying little behind Spyderco.
So this is scope of my logic. This is why I think Sal lead knife market.
Thanks, Vassili.
yep Vassili, you figured it out. I obviously think I'm a marketing genius :pnozh2002 wrote:Most people will be happy with $1 crap knife made in Communist China.
I am not talking about volumes and profit. I do not think that push toward CPM M4 is targeting volume sales as well, simple because it is not stainless.
You obviously have perfect sales logic and much smarter and better overall etc... I am not sure why Sal even has all this effort to bring limited amount or people who can value good steel.
This is, probably, about company which provide best product. And I know few other companies who trying this as well staying little behind Spyderco.
So this is scope of my logic. This is why I think Sal lead knife market.
Thanks, Vassili.
still, you have to admit telling the president he will lose competitive marketshare for not jumping ship from Crucible is a tad immature. I think it's even a bit insulting but chose to pull my punches. I dont speak for anyone but myself and am quicker to temper than most.
The truth is, dispite popular belief, maker relationships are important. You don't jump ship or burn bridges because they all have niche products and skills. The future is vague and even companies spiraling to their doom can pull off miracles and rise again *see Ford*.
S90v (especially not 440v) isn't the end of crucible's capacity, the XHP isn't the best from carpenter. I don't think either of us can run a company better than Sal. However, I'm NOT the one giving him advice...am I? :)
This is all in fun friend. If I was intending to scorn people here I could do it in a few words. This is a good place for everyone to learn. I try to check the ego at the door along with my muddy shoes.
Oh, boy. Well, all those manufacturers will all read your tests and jump to CTS-XHP, which will be a real dumb move because all the AFIs will have switched to buying Doziers, also thanks to your tests. :rolleyes:nozh2002 wrote:This sounds like you will not have any knife with this steel.
You may lose your competing advantage here - this is American steel so easy available for every other manufacturer. Once it would be learned by more people that this one is the best steel (thanks to you limited run) - no one will wait for Spyderco to came with new model in a year. At least I will buy any new knife with CTS-XHP once I see it available.
It seems like surprise news and current push is toward M4 - this has certain momentum which is hard to overcome, but I believe that this is new real natural super steel on the market - CPM 440V, ZDP189 and now CTS-CHP (440XH).
Hope you will be leading knife market as usual.
Thanks, Vassili.
Meanwhile, Sal will be stuck with old, artificial, average steels like those he announced a little higher on this thread.
Oh, BTW, even the good people at Carpenter do not consider CTS-XHP their best steel for cutlery, that would be CTS-20CP. :o
You not only marketing genius, but as well excellent mentor for immature people...Blerv wrote:yep Vassili, you figured it out. I obviously think I'm a marketing genius :p
still, you have to admit telling the president he will lose competitive marketshare for not jumping ship from Crucible is a tad immature. I think it's even a bit insulting but chose to pull my punches. I dont speak for anyone but myself and am quicker to temper than most.
Yes, you are not one giving him advice - you shutting up others who express their immature point of view. I would say guardian of peace for public company presidents etc... Very important role and not for everybody! It is good to have such people around.Blerv wrote:The truth is, dispite popular belief, maker relationships are important. You don't jump ship or burn bridges because they all have niche products and skills. The future is vague and even companies spiraling to their doom can pull off miracles and rise again *see Ford*.
S90v isn't the end of crucible's capacity, the XHP isn't the best from carpenter. I don't think either of us can run a company better than Sal. However, I'm NOT the one giving him advice...am I? :)
This is all in fun friend. If I was intending to scorn people here I could do it in a few words. This is a good place for everyone to learn. I try to check the ego at the door along with my muddy shoes.
I would go and think about my immature behavior and misery...
Thanks, Vassili.
I assume you have some test results to back it up? May I see?LorenzoL wrote:Oh, boy. Well, all those manufacturers will all read your tests and jump to CTS-XHP, which will be a real dumb move because all the AFIs will have switched to buying Doziers, also thanks to your tests. :rolleyes:
Meanwhile, Sal will be stuck with old, artificial, average steels like those he announced a little higher on this thread.
Oh, BTW, even the good people at Carpenter do not consider CTS-XHP their best steel for cutlery, that would be CTS-20CP. :o
Thanks, Vassili.
Oh I'm starting to sense sarcasm. Is this what it is to be...human? (imitating the T100).nozh2002 wrote: Yes, you are not one giving him advice - you shutting up others who express their immature point of view. I would say guardian of peace for public company presidents etc... Very important role and not for everybody! It is good to have such people around.
I would go and think about my immature behavior and misery...
Thanks, Vassili.
Ok you want it blunt Vassili? I think you have no clue what you are talking about. Forget people's honor here, forget prose, I'm saying logically you are flawed. However, you have definitely perfected confidence.
ZDP-189, 440v, and CTS-XHP have about as much in common as Mickey Mouse, Batman, and Popeye. What does that mean :confused: ? Absolutely nothing! They are all premium blade steels and that's about where the similarity ends. I've been around the knife scene for only one year and through forum reading I can figure that one out.
I know better not to get into the topic of blade steel because what I know could fit in the tiniest thimble compared to Mastiff, Joe Talmadge, and other forum members (some of which being custom blade makers) let alone Ed Schempp and Sal Glesser. These guys are testing formulas and heat-treats for the makers before some of them even know how it works. :eek:
The beginning of the quest of knowledge is starting to see how little you truly know. Then you can seek learning by putting the ego away and listening. I've just started to realize how **** stupid I truly am but am NOWHERE near the stage of knowledge. Don't think for a second I'm saying I have all the answers...I'm just saying there might be some gray areas out there you haven't realized exist.
Yes, besides a godly source of marketing and steel knowledge I'm a world class fortune cookie writing philosopher. In all honestly the only title I can honestly attest to carrying is "adept smartass". In fact, if you didn't see the commercials, "Window's 7 was MY Idea."
Let's not carry this on for pages in forum vernacular. Here's a bullet-point list for people who just stumbled into the thread (whom I offer my most sincere apologies to):
* CTS-XHP is awesome stuff!
* Sal is looking to experiment with more of their steels!
* The future has been previewed by Spyderco (/bow)
* Trust in Sal's judgement as the company hasn't lead us astray.
* Barking can lead to biting. Tread lightly. :rolleyes:
BTW, I meant CTS-204P, CTS-20P is not properly speaking stainless.
http://www.cartech.com/techarticles.aspx?id=3890
CTS-204P is the Carpenter equivalent of M390 and Duratech 20CV.
http://www.cartech.com/techarticles.aspx?id=3890
CTS-204P is the Carpenter equivalent of M390 and Duratech 20CV.
Just added LorenzoL to the list of people who know more than me about steel. :)LorenzoL wrote:BTW, I meant CTS-204P, CTS-20P is not properly speaking stainless.
http://www.cartech.com/techarticles.aspx?id=3890
CTS-204P is the Carpenter equivalent of M390 and Duratech 20CV.
See Vas...It's ok to admit it. Bow, fireplace kumbaya, hand shake, cool-dude head nod?
I guess if we wait bit more you will start sensing logic. May be even understand what are we talking about here...Blerv wrote:Oh I'm starting to sense sarcasm. Is this what it is to be...human? (imitating the T100).
Good luck! I am looking forward to see you progress. Take you time.
Thanks, Vassili.
Something else I learned from this thread:
http://www.spyderco.com/forums/profile. ... ignorelist
Amazing what technology can do these days. :)
http://www.spyderco.com/forums/profile. ... ignorelist
Amazing what technology can do these days. :)
All this noise kind of derail my question or rather request - seems like currently there is no plan to produce more knives with CTS-XHP which is very unfortunate.
But please at least have a closer look to this steel. I doubt that it will go unnoticed by real users and it will be more requests similar to mine. And it will not be not only me who will be lurking for knives out of this steel - will it come from Spyderco or not, does not really matter.
However - who knows may be this is not steel matter but manufacturer, let see other steel from Carpenter. But this one already shows best results.
Thanks, Vassili.
But please at least have a closer look to this steel. I doubt that it will go unnoticed by real users and it will be more requests similar to mine. And it will not be not only me who will be lurking for knives out of this steel - will it come from Spyderco or not, does not really matter.
However - who knows may be this is not steel matter but manufacturer, let see other steel from Carpenter. But this one already shows best results.
Thanks, Vassili.
