VG-10 criticism: why?

[Red Leader]

Awesome history lesson, thank you.

[chronovore]

Here you go Shawn...


Talkin' Story,

The VG-10 story is kinda like the 154Cm / ATS-34 story. "Back in the day", maybe 1998, we were using Gingami 1 (G-2) in most of our knives made in Japan. ATS-34 was our "Higher line" blade steel. I was getting more and more involved in blade steels, edge geometries, and was seeking better performance. ATS-34 was quite expensive and harder to process. We were using Crucible's CPM-440V in out Golden factory.

I was a member of the US Knifemakers Guild and the ABS. Learning a great deal.

Hitachi had come up with a new steel, ATS-55, and offered it to us as an exclusive. Testing went OK, so we signed on, and we were using the steel in most of our Seki made knives. Then another maker told us of a new steel developed by Takefu for Grafting in horticulture. They called it VG-10. Again, testing went OK, so we added VG-10 to our stable of steels. We introduced VG-10 in a fixed blade, the Moran, and began using it for many of our Seki models.

Over the next few years, testing and ELU response was watched carefully and we eventually gave up ATS-55 and continued using VG-10 to this day.

We continued to work with Crucible adding steels and Crucible decided that Blade steels was a potential market and began working knife shows, which worked well for them.

Then Carpenter Steel asked us if we would help them develop blade steels and bring them into the Knife Market. We have a decent testing lab, CATRA, etc., so we worked with them for the next few years. That's how the line of CTS steels came into the knife market. Once they had a working line of Blade steels, their head metallurgist asked me, what can we (Carpenter) do for Spyderco for our efforts.

I told them that there was a Japanese steel made by Hitachi, called Gingami 1, that we were using in Japan and importing to the US to use in our Golden factory. There was no USA equivalent, so I asked them if they could make a powdered version and tweak it for blade steel performance. The result was CTS-BD1N. turned out to be a really good all around steel. I had hoped for an exclusive, but that wasn't going to happen.

A while later, I was speaking with Bob Shabala at Niagara and wondered in Crucible would make a special steel and give it to Spyderco as an exclusive? Bob didn't think it was likely, but as it turned out, Crucible agreed. I was working with Crucible's metallurgist, Mr. Bob Skibitski (I call him Bobski), who is a gifted Metallurgist. I told him that there was a Japanese ingot steel made by Takefu, called VG-10, which is a really good all around steel, for which there is no American equivalent. The president of Takefu told me that he believed that Cobalt added to the alloy helped to enhance the results. I asked him if he could make an equivalent Cobalt based steel, powder it and tweak it for blade steel performance. After a few runs, he/we came up with SPY-27. We had already discussed the exclusive angle and that's how we ended up with the alloy.

Hope that helps.

sal
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

A goal in life is to be consistent like the sun and transparent like the air. That's how trust is built... and trust is the true bottom line".

I'm a big fan of this ongoing legacy, Sal.

I've been picking up more SPY27 and so far so good.

I'd love to see more choices in BD1N too. I know there was confusion between BD1 and BD1N to the extent that some websites may still have models mislabeled. It's a really good steel for reasonably priced knives and I think more people should try it.

[sal]

Hi Shawn,

Sorry, got caught up in the VG-10, and forgot the ATS-154CM. Don't know if it's a Talkin' story, you decide. Lotta "hear-say" (Maybe Brian can add or verify)

I don't have as much first hand experience, but I'll share what I've learned. 154CM was a Crucible steel, that I believe was discovered for the knife Industry, by Loveless. As I understand, 154 was being made for Boeing by Crucible to be used for the jet fins. The 154 was developing "High Temperature Creep" (stretching) and hitting the jet housing. Crucible's metallurgists added Molybdenum, which prevents "High temperature creep". It was very highly refined and the steel, 154CM, also turned out to be exceptional for custom knifemakers. It became the "go to" steel for the custom guys. The addition of the Moly makes the heat treating and tempering temperatures much higher, which makes the steel more expensive to make.

Then Boeing went to Titanium for the fins which reduced the need for the very refined 154CM, so the level of refinement went down. Now it was no longer the very highly refined steel that the custom knifemakers wanted. Hitachi, in Japan, saw the need for the very highly refined steel to be used in blades, which is always in high demand in Japan, and they created ATS-34, which was the same as the refined 154CM. The knife makers jumped on the new steel. Even Spyderco used ATS-34 in production pieces. Crucible saw what was happening, and again refined 154CM, which was now USA made and highly refined. Spyderco ordered 154CM for something we were making and when we received it, we learned that they had powdered it, (which wasn't expected) and it became CPM-154, which was made by Crucible until they closed. I don't know the current status of the steel. Maybe Bob Shabala or Larrin might know.

Hope that helps?

sal

[Deadboxhero]

Hi Shawn,

Sorry, got caught up in the VG-10, and forgot the ATS-154CM. Don't know if it's a Talkin' story, you decide. Lotta "hear-say" (Maybe Brian can add or verify)

I don't have as much first hand experience, but I'll share what I've learned. 154CM was a Crucible steel, that I believe was discovered for the knife Industry, by Loveless. As I understand, 154 was being made for Boeing by Crucible to be used for the jet fins. The 154 was developing "High Temperature Creep" (stretching) and hitting the jet housing. Crucible's metallurgists added Molybdenum, which prevents "High temperature creep". It was very highly refined and the steel, 154CM, also turned out to be exceptional for custom knifemakers. It became the "go to" steel for the custom guys. The addition of the Moly makes the heat treating and tempering temperatures much higher, which makes the steel more expensive to make.

Then Boeing went to Titanium for the fins which reduced the need for the very refined 154CM, so the level of refinement went down. Now it was no longer the very highly refined steel that the custom knifemakers wanted. Hitachi, in Japan, saw the need for the very highly refined steel to be used in blades, which is always in high demand in Japan, and they created ATS-34, which was the same as the refined 154CM. The knife makers jumped on the new steel. Even Spyderco used ATS-34 in production pieces. Crucible saw what was happening, and again refined 154CM, which was now USA made and highly refined. Spyderco ordered 154CM for something we were making and when we received it, we learned that they had powdered it, (which wasn't expected) and it became CPM-154, which was made by Crucible until they closed. I don't know the current status of the steel. Maybe Bob Shabala or Larrin might know.

Hope that helps?

sal

Thank you Sal,
I really appreciate the first hand account since it was before my time but curiosity is timeless.

I know you were in The Knifemakers Guild and frequented the Eugene Knife Show at its peak and you probably knew of Ted Dowell. He was not too far from me just down in Bend, Oregon. His son was selling a lot of his equipment and steel since he had passed away many years ago.

He did a lot of rope cut testing and I was able to visit his old shop and talk to his son about some of Ted's innovations and revelations from heat treatment and rope cut testing different steels. Interestingly he even had some very exotic materials like F8 Silvanite which I purchased all that he had since it was a unique, air hardening tungsten steel that was made locally in the Northwest by the now defunct "Columbia Steel".

Back to 154CM it was interesting that Ted had a eureka moment in his notes that he had discovered an improved heat treatment for 440C using cryogenics but unfortunately it was basically already obsolete since 154 CM was coming online with the custom knife makers and was significantly better in his experience.

I thought that was cool because it was happening in the late 1970s which was a lot earlier than I thought for stuff like that.

I talked to Niagara at Shot Show 2026.

They told me that they have plans to do ESR with the regular 154CM which should improve the cleanliness to a higher level then the previous ingot versions I thought that was exciting along with it being completely made in the US despite not being a PM steel.

I didn't ask about the PM version which will now be made by Erasteel I'm sure.

At SHOT, they had a Bob Terzuola C15 in the case to celebrate the 50th year anniversary of Spyderco along with other cool artifacts.

The first collaboration knife and I believe it was the first Golden, Colorado knife?

At the end of the show, the media people let me sit there and play with it and stare at it.

It really captured my imagination. I was brought to a different time when this was the most advanced production knife ever made using a steel that only the custom guys were using.

I really let myself feel the excitement of that.

I also thought it was a fun parallel with the recent release of the starmate.

I wasn't old enough to experience any of that, so it really piqued my interest to ask more questions like these with you.

By the time I came around both 154CM and VG10 had decades of proven performance seemed to be head to head in what they offered.

And now we have SPY27, very cool.

Thanks again Sal.

[The Mastiff]

He did a lot of rope cut testing and I was able to visit his old shop and talk to his son about some of Ted's innovations and revelations from heat treatment and rope cut testing different steels. Interestingly he even had some very exotic materials like F8 Silvanite which I purchased all that he had since it was a unique, air hardening tungsten steel that was made locally in the Northwest by the now defunct "Columbia Steel".

Shawn, That F8 is as rare now as any steel I can think of for small to medium knife or woodworking tool use. I've been trying for well over a decade to find some to have made into a 3 to 4 inch utility knife but have had no luck whatsoever finding it . I first heard about it from Wayne Goddard with his rope testing. Please keep me in mind if you ever get around to making anything suitable from it or even to sell me a small piece around 6 to 8 inches . That was a rare find indeed and whatever you don't use you can flip at a profit.

Joe

[The Mastiff]

For me the Spyderco switch from G2(Gin 1) to ATS 55 happened at the time I was first really getting interested in different steels . Gin 1 was the first stainless steel I ever really liked and I remember reading the inserts in Spyderco boxes as well as various knife magazine interviews with Sal about the make up of the steels used by Spyderco. I was unsure about ATS 55 until I tried it but it turned out to be pretty good. I started paying attention to what Sal had to say as he seemed honest and not just a salesman. By the time he explained the advantages of S30V and ZDP 189 a few years later I was a believer and was in on both releases pre orders. It's been an interesting journey not only with Spyderco products but the entire knife industry as well. Now there is a whole industry full of people watching Sal and now Eric to see what the next big thing will be. :)

[RugerNurse]

That is a nice looking one, you bought this one right?

Sadly no, too rich for my blood lol. I didn’t know this store carried Spyderco’s so it was nice to see some in person. It was a beautiful knife.

I did handle some Benchmades which I’ve never been able to do and I’ll say most of them were uncomfortable. My Delica is way more comfortable to hold.

[Jeb]

Oh, I get it now. I got one Benchmade that is over 25 years old now that is a auto... the knife is ok. I carried it and my 5" Protech when I was working for our military.

Now the Protech is a great knife and it's a 5"... I really hope to see Spyderco make us a 5" soon.

[GarageBoy]

@sal
How did VG10 win out over ATS55 in the end?

[N. Brian Huegel]

Hi Shawn,

Sorry, got caught up in the VG-10, and forgot the ATS-154CM. Don't know if it's a Talkin' story, you decide. Lotta "hear-say" (Maybe Brian can add or verify)

I don't have as much first hand experience, but I'll share what I've learned. 154CM was a Crucible steel, that I believe was discovered for the knife Industry, by Loveless. As I understand, 154 was being made for Boeing by Crucible to be used for the jet fins. The 154 was developing "High Temperature Creep" (stretching) and hitting the jet housing. Crucible's metallurgists added Molybdenum, which prevents "High temperature creep". It was very highly refined and the steel, 154CM, also turned out to be exceptional for custom knifemakers. It became the "go to" steel for the custom guys. The addition of the Moly makes the heat treating and tempering temperatures much higher, which makes the steel more expensive to make.

Then Boeing went to Titanium for the fins which reduced the need for the very refined 154CM, so the level of refinement went down. Now it was no longer the very highly refined steel that the custom knifemakers wanted. Hitachi, in Japan, saw the need for the very highly refined steel to be used in blades, which is always in high demand in Japan, and they created ATS-34, which was the same as the refined 154CM. The knife makers jumped on the new steel. Even Spyderco used ATS-34 in production pieces. Crucible saw what was happening, and again refined 154CM, which was now USA made and highly refined. Spyderco ordered 154CM for something we were making and when we received it, we learned that they had powdered it, (which wasn't expected) and it became CPM-154, which was made by Crucible until they closed. I don't know the current status of the steel. Maybe Bob Shabala or Larrin might know.

Hope that helps?

sal

All seems accurate to me, my recollections and Larrin's history in his book, "The Story of Knife Steel".

nb

[N. Brian Huegel]

@sal
How did VG10 win out over ATS55 in the end?

Without speaking out of turn, when Spyderco contracted for their first proprietary steel, ATS-55, they had to commit to a minimum amount (X tons). Without attempting the calculation, that amount of steel makes tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of blades/knives. It took Spyderco at least five years to use their allotment of ATS-55 especially as they were also using VG-10. I imagine that if Hitachi and Spyderco wanted to continue exclusivity, another five+ years would be another big commitment and tie up a lot of capital. Given the availability of VG-10 and new CPM steels coming to the market, it was time to let ATS-55 retire gracefully. Another of the 60+ steels Spyderco has used with many, many more to come.

nb

[SpyderEdgeForever]

@sal
How did VG10 win out over ATS55 in the end?

Without speaking out of turn, when Spyderco contracted for their first proprietary steel, ATS-55, they had to commit to a minimum amount (X tons). Without attempting the calculation, that amount of steel makes tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of blades/knives. It took Spyderco at least five years to use their allotment of ATS-55 especially as they were also using VG-10. I imagine that if Hitachi and Spyderco wanted to continue exclusivity, another five+ years would be another big commitment and tie up a lot of capital. Given the availability of VG-10 and new CPM steels coming to the market, it was time to let ATS-55 retire gracefully. Another of the 60+ steels Spyderco has used with many, many more to come.

nb

Thank you to you and sal for this.
I have seen older model ATS 55 Enduras.
What would you say is the most specific difference between the two alloys?

[James Y]

I have many ATS-55 models that I bought before VG-10 replaced it. I found ATS-55 to be okay; but in my personal experience, VG-10 takes a sharper edge a bit more easily than ATS-55 did. IMO, VG-10 also has better corrosion resistance.

Jim

[SpyderEdgeForever]

I have many ATS-55 models that I bought before VG-10 replaced it. I found ATS-55 to be okay; but in my personal experience, VG-10 takes a sharper edge a bit more easily than ATS-55 did. IMO, VG-10 also has better corrosion resistance.

Jim

If Cobalt was not available would ATS 34 be a great steel?

[Chumango]

A lot of people don't recognize just how fortunate we are to have all the steels available to us now. Just pick the combination of edge retention, toughness, and corrosion resistance that you want, and choose a steel that provides that balance. I remember back when 440C was the knife preferred by custom makers and most common blades were of lesser steels than this. Then came ATS34 and 154CM, and I remember the huge hype around S30V when it came out. It actually was a significant improvement in some areas, but not all. And then in recent years the flood of high performance steels.

My blades live a pretty pedestrian life. I actually don't need the super steels given my typical usage and the fact that I sharpen early. As was stated before, if you didn't label the steel, I probably wouldn't be able to tell many of them apart. That doesn't mean I don't have a large array of steels.

[sal]

"A piece of the stuff".

sal

[SpyderEdgeForever]

"A piece of the stuff".

sal

One day, sal my friend, the blades will be made of the same stuff we now use to sharpen them.

[The Mastiff]

"A piece of the stuff".

sal

Hey, I'm a retired disabled guy that can't easily budget for $2000 customs. I prefer eating. I get by how I can. If that means I can't try out steels I want to then so be it. There are worse things.

[Naperville]

"A piece of the stuff".

sal

Hey, I'm a retired disabled guy that can't easily budget for $2000 customs. I prefer eating. I get by how I can. If that means I can't try out steels I want to then so be it. There are worse things.

Sorry to hear about your healthcare situation.

I cannot afford $2000 customs either. Well, I can. If I want to lose everything that I have an live in a car or on a beach in FL.