Let's Talk Locks

[silver & black]

You know, a slow thumb roll to open those Manix's won't cause loss of control of the knife. It doesn't always have to a be a ninja flickfest everytime a knife is opened

Actually I meant trying to close it or disengage the lock. I like slow rolling the Manix, it is so smooth. But I find that the lock spring strength is so high that my fingers work so hard to disengage that it can actualy fumble the knife around leading to more injury. It is easy to lose purchase on it, even with that grippy FRN. To me it is unbalanced and feels sory of like a lawyer decision.

I'm not sure why so many people report the same thing.

I've never once thought about clipping my spring or installing a lighter one.



No issues using the lock with just my thumb, or index finger. If my hands are wet I'll use two fingers.

I'm guessing it is because people are different? So I just pulled out the 2 Manix knives I have w/ regular strength springs, and I can close them 2 fingered (thumb and index), and also w/ just the thumb. But that is uncomfortable at best. It is also in the best of circumstances. Sometimes I'm out working in freezing temperatures and my hands are cold, or really dry, which makes them more slippery. Or if I have a very slight hand injury, it can also affect it. A lot of time I'm using a lot of grip strength on screwdrivers, or crimping fittings, or on channel locks tightening unions or other some such tomfoolery. So grip strength can go down, and when that happens, and your grip/pinch strength goes down, more can go wrong as those fine motor skills are reduced. When the hand is wound up tight with a lot of tension as it gets sometimes when trying to disengage the CBBL, if things slip a little bit, it can send the knife flying, or at least result in a loss of control. I've not had an accident w/ it, but I have definitely lost control of the knife before while closing, as it is a relationship between 3 specific parts of hand - your finger, thumb, and base of your hand...that is usually necessary to close it.

Usually when discussion of the Manix lock spring strength come up, it gets pretty predictable - some may say they agree, and then usually others say what your are saying, i.e. 'what's the big deal' and 'it's just fine'. I'm somewhere in the middle. I can actuate it, but personally speaking, with how stiff it makes the close, I believe that it is less than ideal and is too stiff. I'm acknowledging that it seems to be a problem for many out there, including many who really enjoy the Manix platform. A lock should be able to keep the user safe, without the user having to fight against it - and I absolutely have had to fight it at times and in less-than-ideal circumstances. If the lock has lock stick (which some Manix's have) it can make it worse as well.

I agree with this!

[Wartstein]

I'd like to see more of the ball lock. ...

+1!

[Wartstein]

...
Usually when discussion of the Manix lock spring strength come up, it gets pretty predictable - some may say they agree, and then usually others say what your are saying, i.e. 'what's the big deal' and 'it's just fine'. ...

That´s true... I happen to be on the "what´s the big deal" side of things, since, like Vivi, I never had any problems in any cirumstances I can recall to activate a Manix lock with just one finger, resp. thumb or index finger (here are some short clips I made once concerning also that matter viewtopic.php?p=1459252#p1459252, vid 2,3,4,5)

I most likely have stronger fingers than the average person, but am still definitely not super strong, so meanwhile I muse about if it could have to do (also) with other factors if one finds the CBBL harder or easier to operate: To get real nerdy perhaps even with things like how relatively long or short the first phalanx of the finger is and thus how much leverage it creates or whatever...?
(Which in way would actually translate into "finger strength" again in that particular scenario)

[Doc Dan]

[sal]

While lock strength is very important, so as to be aware of the limits. Lock Failure is even more important and may not be related to the lock breaking, but failure to hold, which is also important.

Much of the desired reliability we're seeking is also in the quality of the craftsmen and craftswomen, but also the quality of the materials used.

sal

[ChrisinHove]

The high strength and self adjusting nature of the CBBL appeals to me, but I wonder why the ball bearing is the size it is, especially is if it’s caged anyway?

The CVT transmission on my Vespa uses weighted rollers, some form of low friction but hard wearing composite around a steel core. These flatten with wear but still function well, and indeed can be replaced with popular, after market, irregular wedge shaped sliders that don’t roll at all.

Why a ball bearing in the lock and not a roller or wedge? Or is it just an issue around patents?

[Wartstein]

Doc, as much as I am a backlock-guy and do think it is superstrong:

Still the test of the backlock in the second vid where rather the Delicas blade broke before the lock failed imo is questionable:
If the loop of the cable is positioned in front of the lockbar pivot this would mean that the stronger the applied force gets, the more the lock actually gets pulled into the closed position and thus more or less "can´t fail" but at one point the blade has to break..?

I did not check though on my crappy cellphone-screen where exactly they positioned the loop on that Delica.

[Jeb]

While lock strength is very important, so as to be aware of the limits. Lock Failure is even more important and may not be related to the lock breaking, but failure to hold, which is also important.

Much of the desired reliability we're seeking is also in the quality of the craftsmen and craftswomen, but also the quality of the materials used.

sal

Now your talking...all you got to do is have one of the old linerlocks absolutely fail to hold and the knife fold up on you and it's a come to Jesus moment for Jeb...

It's like in your vehicle and get on the brake pedal and one moment you have brakes and the next; the pedal hits the firewall.

When you have a knife like a razor and it literally closes on your gloved and cold paw, it was a seriously bad thing, one I don't care to repeat. Took ten years off me .

One of the nice things many of us here may take for granted. The lockblade function to me is the single most important thing to check.

I have yet to see one locking blade that Spyderco has that I don't like. I have some linerlock they even did... and while they are very impressive, I just don't trust them enough to edc one...

[Evil D]

I'm an outlier here but I'd make them all automatics with Plunge Locks if I could wave a magic wand, or in a perfect world maybe just have an automatic variant of my favorites. I like it because it combines the operation of a button compression lock but obviously also being an automatic. We can skip over arguing the advantages or disadvantages of autos vs manual opening and which is faster, I just like them for the convenience of how they operate.

Next choice would be changing all the compression locks to the button version, assuming it could be done on certain models without adding a giant notch in the blade for clearance. It probably wouldn't be possible on every design. I just want the function of a compression lock but without the finger access notch cut in the scale so that the spine of the handle is smooth and uninterrupted.

[elena86]

…………………

Next choice would be changing all the compression locks to the button version………

^^This. I am also a liner lock guy. Easy and intuitive to manipulate and Spyderco is known for their superior crafted liner locks. Obviously RIL is in the superior league. I only wish they released more LLocks/RILocks.Bring back the Sage2 please !

P.S All that aside if I had to chose just one Spyderco for the rest of my life I would want one with CBBL. I dream of a Bowie style spydie with CBBL.

[Wartstein]

...I am also a liner lock guy. Easy and intuitive to manipulate and Spyderco is known for their superior crafted liner locks. Obviously RIL is in the superior league. I only wish they released more LLocks/RILocks...

Agreed!

More balance between comp.- and linerlock in the mid- to high end models would be a good thing to me (though probably not for overall sales).

As you say: Linerlock is so natural and intuitiv to manipulate, and operation works great also in harsher conditions.

I sometimes imagine that if there was no comp.lock and no linerlock and then both came out at the same time and only in high quality, this would lead to a fairer assessment of their individual pros and cons.
As it is the linerlock probably suffers a bit from the bad reputation the many cheap and badly executed (not by Spyderco!) and the "old school vibes" have caused... (the latter it has in some ways in common with for example S30V or VG10 in the steel arena...)

[RustyIron]

blade broke before the lock failed imo is questionable:

The video is cute and fun. After all, who doesn't like measuring things and breaking stuff? The only thing that would improve the video is if they had some explosives.

I didn't watch the whole video--once I see some faulty data or methodology, I write of everything that follows as suspect. The first thing is the lack of rigidity of the testing fixtures. The metal was bends like a stick of uncooked linguini. It's obvious. The other thing that struck me was the blade slipping in the clamp. I had to zoom in to confirm, but the blade is definitely slipping in there. With that said, I don't think there's any expectation that the video is in any way scientific. It's just a couple guys goofing around because they're paid by the hour and need something to do between now and quitting time.

[sal]

I'm an outlier here but I'd make them all automatics with Plunge Locks if I could wave a magic wand, or in a perfect world maybe just have an automatic variant of my favorites. I like it because it combines the operation of a button compression lock but obviously also being an automatic. We can skip over arguing the advantages or disadvantages of autos vs manual opening and which is faster, I just like them for the convenience of how they operate.

Next choice would be changing all the compression locks to the button version, assuming it could be done on certain models without adding a giant notch in the blade for clearance. It probably wouldn't be possible on every design. I just want the function of a compression lock but without the finger access notch cut in the scale so that the spine of the handle is smooth and uninterrupted.

Noted.

sal

[Danke]

If one of the existing locks was just invented today which one would get the most noise about wanting it on all knives?

[BeggarSo]

If one of the existing locks was just invented today which one would get the most noise about wanting it on all knives?

Oh that's easy button actuated compression lock not as an evolution but a brand new thing wow what a cannonball into the pool that would be.

[TkoK83Spy]

If one of the existing locks was just invented today which one would get the most noise about wanting it on all knives?

Oh that's easy button actuated compression lock not as an evolution but a brand new thing wow what a cannonball into the pool that would be.

Would have to be the button lock or compression lock for the Instagram, Reddit, YouTube "reviewers" that are into customizing and, as I know you like...Ninja Flickfest folks!!

Sadly, it seems like a lot of knife folks aren't actually users these days and are more concerned with how the knife looks and how smooth it flicks. No offense to members here, just what I see in general. But I'll stop there.

[srivats]

This thread reminds me of all the horsepower HP wars or Jeep suspension wars in auto forums to some extent.

You can have a 1000HP monster engine but if you are stuck in traffic and only can drive at 40mph, what good is all that HP other than for bragging rights? I used to have a Jeep and the forums were full of people discussing articulation and off-road capability and long arm vs short arm suspension and all that stuff ..but the question there too is, if your vehicle is a tarmac queen, beyond a certain point more than the brand of suspension you have, the specifics of how it is executed for the task (of daily driving, in this case) become more important. If it gives people joy, by all means, build the Jeep or your monster HP machine to be whatever the dream behicle is for you.

I am sure @sal and Spyderco can engineer the strongest ever lock known to humanity if that were their singlular task and metric to gauge merit . That never,ever should be in any question. The question really is how strong a lock really needs to be for the intended application at the cost point they are targeting. Same for knives - if you are after bragging rights and/or if it gives you joy to chase after perfection, best-est of the engineering and all that, by all means, go after it. This is no different than people wanting a Sebenza (or insert any other knife here, really) for say the aesthetics or the "hydraulic feel" or whatever reason that aspires to them.

For most of us living normal lives (esp normal office goers), a well executed backlock like Spyderco does, in a good quality steel, is beyond plenty. Everything else is just variety/extra/bonus/bragging/chasing full-on perfection.

Refinement within constraints especially like what Spyderco does is pretty awesome. Very few companies come anywhere close.

[Red Leader]

Next choice would be changing all the compression locks to the button version, assuming it could be done on certain models without adding a giant notch in the blade for clearance.

Yep, for sure possible - just bend an extended tab from the lockbar over the top across to the other side perhaps, sort of hugging the edge when the blade is folded up in the handle. Could probably get away with keeping uninterrupted liners along the top of the handle, and still allow that tab to cross to the other side.

[Red Leader]

For most of us living normal lives (esp normal office goers), a well executed backlock like Spyderco does, in a good quality steel, is beyond plenty. Everything else is just variety/extra/bonus/bragging/chasing full-on perfection.

Refinement within constraints especially like what Spyderco does is pretty awesome. Very few companies come anywhere close.

While I'm in the office here and there, most of my time is on a roof, or a construction site. I'm likely to never do anything to ever break a backlock, even when the lockup area is super small - like on a Delica. I carried an Endura for 10+ years and never had a problem. But that work wasn't as tough as what I do now.

My biggest concern, is honestly if I drop the knife when on a ladder - an 8-10ft fall, onto rocks, dirt, or concrete. I try to be careful but stuff happens. That's why the design of the Swick is so appealing to me and I will probably pick one up soon. But that is another discussion.

The stress induced into the blade from the Spydie hole does worry me at times - what makes it more acute is if the grind has a super sharp 90 degree edge between the bevel and flat, leading up into the Spydie hole. Even with gloves, I don't need a super big hole - something the size of the Smock Spydie hole is great, and if the edge of the hole is sharp *enough* works just fine with gloves. But even that is getting off topic according to the discussion around locks.

Backlock + stop pin is where it's at. Simple, effective, ambidextrous, proven. Not really romantic, but utilitarian, and works great w/ gloves. Give me a 3.5" Native w/ a backlock that has a stop pin, a slightly smaller Spydie hole with slightly better access, a radius on the bevel, and I'm good.

If we wanted to do a 14C28N/Magnamax san mai while we are at it, for the best of toughness and edge retention, I wouldn't complain...

[Wartstein]

If one of the existing locks was just invented today which one would get the most noise about wanting it on all knives?

I am afraid not my own clear favorite, the backlock...

- it probably just has an a bit longer learning-/ "getting used to" - curve before people can appreciate and enjoy its versatility when it comes to operation (one handed opening and closing)
- its benefits are not very obvious without directly comparing it to other locks (closing bias, usually makes for good "non hot spotty" ergos)
- It is great for thumb flicking the blade open in the convenient, safe and useful way - but yes, not a lock for the "frantic you tube flicking crowd"
- It hinders designs with very tall blades in relation to the handle height (but allows for very thin folders on the flipside)
- Unexperienced people might even (falsely) think it is "weak" when they feel a bit of "lock rock"

To me the backlock is the best and a real, down to earth "user lock" - but it probably does not shine if one tries it for the first time....