Gotta rethink my hunting/gutting knife…S110V FAIL!

[alphaneuron9]

Finally got the time to reprofile and sharpen the chipped up S110V. The chips were ground out quite easily.

I won’t be using this knife for any further game processing. I think it’s time to gain the courage to actually use my S90V Shaman for game cleaning purposes. I think it’s built for it.



Here’s what I’m going to start using.

Should be interesting. According to blade HQ knife guide, the hardness of s110v and s90v are both 4/10. 3 vs 3.5 according to knifesteelnerds with the favor going to s90v. We´ll see if 0.5 rating makes the difference? (other variables permitting). Will you get back to us when/if you use the s90v shaman?

[jmj3esq]

I will. I think the blade stock behind the edge is dramatically thicker on the Shaman compared to the Manix 2 and should add edge stability. This alone should help prevent chipping. The S90V (which happens to be my favorite) is just a bonus IMO. I think I knew this all along, but was just looking for a reason not to use this knife. Its just too beautiful to mess up. Im changing my mindset on some of my safe queens. Thanks for the input.

[Traditional.Sharpening]

I will. I think the blade stock behind the edge is dramatically thicker on the Shaman compared to the Manix 2 and should add edge stability. This alone should help prevent chipping.

False. If you notice with the pics of the chipping it did not extend even close to where the edge bevel meets the primary grind. This will have no effect on limiting chipping and it COULD actually go the other way as thicker edges equal more force to push through materials which in turn can amplify lateral pressures on the apex.

If you want to thicken the portion that chipped then you'd need to increase the angle to make it more obtuse there. I don't recommend that in general, I'd just sharpen/grind at the same edge angle or even lower it slightly. If you want, then increase the APEX angle to somewhere around 20 - 25 DPS if you feel that it's still not resistant enough to damage at the apex.

[Scandi Grind]

Um, shouldn't thicker behind the edge make it more durable given the same edge angle because the height of the edge bevel would have to increase, meaning you have more steel that is at a more obtuse angle than the primary grind?

[jmj3esq]

Thats kinda what I was thinking, but who knows? Everybody has a different answer around here.

It is obvious by just looking at it that the edge on that Shaman is heavier and sturdier than the thin Manix 2 edge. The Manix 2 is my favorite Spyderco model and in no way am I bashing it. But its clearly a slicer not cut out for the task I need it for. The Shaman, on the other hand, feels like it was built for my exact needs. Im not going to find a heavier Spyderco folder and dont want to carry a fixed blade. The Shaman S90V is the obvious choice IMO.

[Deadboxhero]

Thats kinda what I was thinking, but who knows? Everybody has a different answer around here.

It is obvious by just looking at it that the edge on that Shaman is heavier and sturdier than the thin Manix 2 edge. The Manix 2 is my favorite Spyderco model and in no way am I bashing it. But its clearly a slicer not cut out for the task I need it for. The Shaman, on the other hand, feels like it was built for my exact needs. Im not going to find a heavier Spyderco folder and dont want to carry a fixed blade. The Shaman S90V is the obvious choice IMO.

You just need to put a thicker edge on your knife. That's it. Problem solved.

[Doc Dan]

Thats kinda what I was thinking, but who knows? Everybody has a different answer around here.

It is obvious by just looking at it that the edge on that Shaman is heavier and sturdier than the thin Manix 2 edge. The Manix 2 is my favorite Spyderco model and in no way am I bashing it. But its clearly a slicer not cut out for the task I need it for. The Shaman, on the other hand, feels like it was built for my exact needs. Im not going to find a heavier Spyderco folder and dont want to carry a fixed blade. The Shaman S90V is the obvious choice IMO.

You just need to put a thicker edge on your knife. That's it. Problem solved.

Never offer logic to a guy who is looking for an excuse to buy a new knife.

[Deadboxhero]

Thats kinda what I was thinking, but who knows? Everybody has a different answer around here.

It is obvious by just looking at it that the edge on that Shaman is heavier and sturdier than the thin Manix 2 edge. The Manix 2 is my favorite Spyderco model and in no way am I bashing it. But its clearly a slicer not cut out for the task I need it for. The Shaman, on the other hand, feels like it was built for my exact needs. Im not going to find a heavier Spyderco folder and dont want to carry a fixed blade. The Shaman S90V is the obvious choice IMO.

You just need to put a thicker edge on your knife. That's it. Problem solved.

Never offer logic to a guy who is looking for an excuse to buy a new knife.

Facts

Come to think of it, I need a new spydie too.

[jmj3esq]

Never offer logic to a guy who is looking for an excuse to buy a new knife.

I hope you were referring to Shawn, because I want nothing to do with another guy's logic in this setting, as I have little compared to most. Plus, by an outside look at my extensive knife collection, there is no logical reason for it besides simple lust. lol

All joking aside, the actual knowledge and logic gained from this thread and Shawn Huston's input tells me I'm on the right track with choosing the S90V Shaman over the thin at the edge Manix 2 for my intended purpose. My Shaman still has the factory edge and I'm going to keep it that way until sharpening is needed. As Shawn suggested, I will simply sharpen it to a more obtuse angle, thus taking advantage of the excessively heavy blade stock behind the edge more efficiently.

I've only been in this incessant knife collection journey for a little over a year. I'm still learning about knife steel properties and the possible uses of all the different steels and how each steel may hold up in certain, specific, scenarios and conditions. It's all fascinating to me. There is a huge learning curve in the knife/steel world and I'm happy to walk through it alone but with help and push from experts like Shawn and others who have responded. Thanks to all.

I'm not stupid, I'm just learning.

[skeeg11]

I know your initial purpose in rethinking your hunting/gutting knife was steel type, but there are also so many other important considerations. After all, millions upon millions of game animals have been processed with 1095 and the like. I would probably start off with designs that best served your intended purposes.

[JD Spydo]

There are three Spyderco recommendations I can suggest for you with complete confidence. First off over the years I've personally used 3 different C-36 Military models with great success. And I'm sure the newer Military 2 will also work quite nicely as well.

A few years back I gifted one of my really good hunting buddies a 2011 era C-60 Ayoob Sprint Run model. The one with the G-10 handle and a nice PE VG-10 blade. I've tried to buy it back from him on several occasions and he won't part with it at all. Just another testimony of the versatility of the C-60 Ayoob model. Even non-knife people really appreciate the C-60 Ayoob after they have used it.

One more suggestion I could give with total confidence would be the older CHINOOK III model. Those old CHINOOK models are built like an "Abrams Tank" and can take a lot of punishment. And the overall blade design of those CHINOOK models ( especially the Chinook III) makes for a great skinning/gutting knife.

[Murat_Cyp]

If that does not work, sharpen your knife to 20dps and put micro bevel at 25 dps. If that does not work, sharpen the knife to 25dps and put a microbevel at 30dps. At some point you should get an edge that will not chip. When you find that geometry which takes the abuse decide if the knife still cuts good enough for you. If it is that problem solved, if not, then it might be the time to move to another steel. You might get some small micro chips that might be stropped out with a good quality strop that is normal. However, If you still get chips large enough to not get fixed by a good strop, then it is time to find alternative steel/knife for the task. LC 200N would be great steel to resist chips.

The instructions you provide will make this knife more of a 'knife-like object' than a knife. That is cold-chisel geometry you are describing and it's quite extreme in the context of a knife which will not be subjected to chisel cutting metal. You can do this, sure, but I would ask to what end when you can simply get a more suitable tool for the job given in the OP? Simply moving to a low carbide volume steel would yield much better results in that it's likely to result in a rolled edge at worst rather than significant chipping.

I do not understand why my suggestion upsets you.

Is there any other way?

The OP has this knife and it gets chip in his use. How can he prevent that without altering the geometry of the knife? If he is not happy with the cutting performance with thicker geometry, as I suggested already, he can 1) switch to another knife with higher toughness steel 2) not to use the knife that way or 3) he can just do whatever works for him

Also how much cutting performance is needed if he is going through with cartilage and bone with a knife? People use saw or knives (even axes) to do such tasks.

I'm not upset, I certainly didn't mean to give that impression if it comes off that way. I just don't see it as a valid recommendation in any case unless you are cutting metal by hammer blow, etc. Those are cold-chisel geometries and have no place on a knife of any kind, IMO. Therefore, if the steel is so brittle as to require such geometry in use such as this then I question the validity of the steel in the first place for knife applications considering it seems to lack minimum durability.

My concern is that this type of recommendation is common (just make it more obtuse) and taken out of context it can easily mislead many people into thinking it's a good idea. As I said, the use case for that geometry is extremely narrow and I don't see really any current Spyderco's as having the correct design parameters to fit that scope of work. As you said it is a challenging task for a knife but again the OP seems to have already learned the lesson that the steel is a poor choice here.

It's not just cutting performance but also edge retention that is reduced by taking the angle so obtuse. The irony here is that S110V is one of those steels that is said to be one of the 'highest edge retention' steels. The interesting thing is that it seems it requires such obtuse angles as 17+ DPS to not chip extensively. This will reduce the actual edge retention dramatically and bring the performance of the steel down to a much lower carbide volume class anyways, so to what end?

The effect of lowering edge angles can have such a dramatic influence on edge retention that even lowering the angle by just 2 DPS can cancel out added wear resistance. So in this way you can have not only a tool with dramatically higher cutting ability via lower edge angles but ALSO dramatically higher edge retention if you are able to optimize the edge angle and reduce it dramatically compared to the factory standard. Wear resistance is not the only way to boost edge retention.

I agree with everything you say. But the OP has already have the knife so it is not very useful for him to just dismiss the possibility of altering the edge geometry (which might be a solution for his case) and to suggest the OP to go and buy a more suitable knife with thicker geometry and/or more durable steel.

My main priority here is to help the OP rather than worrying about giving an impression that thicker edges are better for the general folk. There are ton of stuff written about edge geometry issue and if someone is still not educated about it, then I do not think I would be a reason for people to think the thicker edges are better. Also I do not think there is only one correct approach when it comes to edge geometry/steel selection etc. Different tasks would be better suited different geometries/steels.

Yes, making geometry thicker is not desirable for many cases, but I do not think this case is one of those. Of course the OP can sharpen the knife after every use and end up with a thicker edge anyway.

[Murat_Cyp]

Finally got the time to reprofile and sharpen the chipped up S110V. The chips were ground out quite easily.

I won’t be using this knife for any further game processing. I think it’s time to gain the courage to actually use my S90V Shaman for game cleaning purposes. I think it’s built for it.



Here’s what I’m going to start using.

In terms of edge stability, I do not think there is much difference between S90V and S110V if they are heat treated to the same hardness. If Shaman works in this case, this would be probably the result of the different edge geometry between the Manix and Shaman.

I often use LC200N to do stupid stuff in the kitchen including cutting through frozen meat and the knife takes very little or no damage after such abuse. The knife I use for that task is 10 thousand behind the edge sharpened to 15dps! So if everything else fails, try to get yourself a folder made out of LC200N, it will make you happy. Also the salt series should be perfect for game processing considering that you can do not need to worry about cleaning the folder until you are free/rested enough to do so