The Elephant In The Reveal (besides the BBB Manix): The Lil Temperance LW Price

[apollo]

Hi Apollo,

When it goes outside of the US depends on the distributors and dealers in each country to order them. Spyderco does not have an outlet in the EU other than our distribution.

sal

Thx Sal.
So in theory my dealers can completely miss a sprintrun if they are to lazy to act fast in some highly sought after knives ? I think i am going to start sending some emailes to wake some up then…

[R100]

I think people's frustration all comes down to the same question of "what was the point"? We seem to be back at square one, seeing a product that isn't competitive with similar offerings. I think it's destined to sit on shelves like the g10 version.

I have the G10 version and really like it. I think it is one of Spyderco's best folders for heavier farm and field use.

The point of it is that it is a seriously robust folder. The only really similar offering is the Shaman and that is way more expensive. The Lil' Temperance 3 also has thicker liners, a more robust compression lock, similar cutting edge, is a better cutter due to the grind and weighs an ounce less. I am not thrilled about PE VG10 but the SE version will be great. The lock isn't smooth and free dropping like a Shaman or PM2 but it feels and looks stronger and is less prone to lateral play. I think it offers better value at $176 than the SE S30V Shaman at $230. I seem to be in the minority here but I am grateful to Spyderco for making an unusual knife like this available and will be happy to stump up the cash for a SE version. If it was available in a good tool steel in PE I'd pay over $200 for it.

I hope it is successful and that Spyderco follow up with a 3.5"-4" version of it. That would be a knife.

Dan

[RamZar]

Part of the high price of the Shaman is the expensive contouring of the G-10.

A better comparison is Lil’ Temperance VG-10 & FRN for $176.40 versus Para3 S45VN & G-10 for $161.70.

[VooDooChild]

Part of the high price of the Shaman is the expensive contouring of the G-10.

A better comparison is Lil’ Temperance VG-10 & FRN for $176.40 versus Para3 S45VN & G-10 for $161.70.

I think a better comparison is the para 3 lightweight with frn and bd1n for $115.

I dont think liners make a huge price difference.

[Toucan]

I think people's frustration all comes down to the same question of "what was the point"? We seem to be back at square one, seeing a product that isn't competitive with similar offerings. I think it's destined to sit on shelves like the g10 version.

I have the G10 version and really like it. I think it is one of Spyderco's best folders for heavier farm and field use.

The point of it is that it is a seriously robust folder. The only really similar offering is the Shaman and that is way more expensive. The Lil' Temperance 3 also has thicker liners, a more robust compression lock, similar cutting edge, is a better cutter due to the grind and weighs an ounce less. I am not thrilled about PE VG10 but the SE version will be great. The lock isn't smooth and free dropping like a Shaman or PM2 but it feels and looks stronger and is less prone to lateral play. I think it offers better value at $176 than the SE S30V Shaman at $230. I seem to be in the minority here but I am grateful to Spyderco for making an unusual knife like this available and will be happy to stump up the cash for a SE version. If it was available in a good tool steel in PE I'd pay over $200 for it.

I hope it is successful and that Spyderco follow up with a 3.5"-4" version of it. That would be a knife.

Dan

This is good information to quantify with. Can we get a shot of the Lil Temperance lock side by side with any other comp lock models you might have?

[Michal O]

I think people's frustration all comes down to the same question of "what was the point"? We seem to be back at square one, seeing a product that isn't competitive with similar offerings. I think it's destined to sit on shelves like the g10 version.

I have the G10 version and really like it. I think it is one of Spyderco's best folders for heavier farm and field use.

The point of it is that it is a seriously robust folder. The only really similar offering is the Shaman and that is way more expensive. The Lil' Temperance 3 also has thicker liners, a more robust compression lock, similar cutting edge, is a better cutter due to the grind and weighs an ounce less. I am not thrilled about PE VG10 but the SE version will be great. The lock isn't smooth and free dropping like a Shaman or PM2 but it feels and looks stronger and is less prone to lateral play. I think it offers better value at $176 than the SE S30V Shaman at $230. I seem to be in the minority here but I am grateful to Spyderco for making an unusual knife like this available and will be happy to stump up the cash for a SE version. If it was available in a good tool steel in PE I'd pay over $200 for it.

I hope it is successful and that Spyderco follow up with a 3.5"-4" version of it. That would be a knife.

Dan

This is good information to quantify with. Can we get a shot of the Lil Temperance lock side by side with any other comp lock models you might have?

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=93427#p1660445

I will measure thickness at home later. I can make pic with other Spyderco if you wish. Para 3/PM2/Canis/Amalgam/Watu/Lil Native/Sliverax.

[R100]

I think people's frustration all comes down to the same question of "what was the point"? We seem to be back at square one, seeing a product that isn't competitive with similar offerings. I think it's destined to sit on shelves like the g10 version.

I have the G10 version and really like it. I think it is one of Spyderco's best folders for heavier farm and field use.

The point of it is that it is a seriously robust folder. The only really similar offering is the Shaman and that is way more expensive. The Lil' Temperance 3 also has thicker liners, a more robust compression lock, similar cutting edge, is a better cutter due to the grind and weighs an ounce less. I am not thrilled about PE VG10 but the SE version will be great. The lock isn't smooth and free dropping like a Shaman or PM2 but it feels and looks stronger and is less prone to lateral play. I think it offers better value at $176 than the SE S30V Shaman at $230. I seem to be in the minority here but I am grateful to Spyderco for making an unusual knife like this available and will be happy to stump up the cash for a SE version. If it was available in a good tool steel in PE I'd pay over $200 for it.

I hope it is successful and that Spyderco follow up with a 3.5"-4" version of it. That would be a knife.

Dan

This is good information to quantify with. Can we get a shot of the Lil Temperance lock side by side with any other comp lock models you might have?

Bottom to top: Kapara, Para 3, PM2, Shaman, LT3, Para 3 LW, Rhino.


Bottom to top: Shaman, LT3, PM2.

[BornIn1500]

The point of it is that it is a seriously robust folder.

I didn't mean "what's the point" of the model in general. The question was "what's the point" of making it in FRN and VG-10. It wasn't selling well, so the 2 options were dropping the model or reinventing it to make the price more competitive with similar models. Door #2 was picked, but it's still not really competitive to other models in the lineup. So... "what was the point?" The people who held off because of higher price will still hold off because of the higher price.

I hear you about the g-10 version being a good knife and very solid. I have one. And yes, a 3.5" version would be a perfect knife! I think Sal said he even made a prototype of an XL.

[RamZar]

Some of these folders which are made in Japan just don’t make sense from an economic standpoint. You invest in the manufacturing just to do one batch which don’t sell well even at discounted prices and are discontinued. I gave examples of the regular production ones with S30V & G-10 from 2017 made in Japan. Another example is the Viele Phoenix VG-10 Red G-10 C114GPRD Sprint Run (Japan) which was released in March 2021. This was VG-10 with titanium liners for a whopping street price of $315.00! Some dealers still have them in stock.

https://www.dlttrading.com/spyderco-vie ... sprint-run

[Michal O]

CL liner thickness in LT3 is 1,5 mm, Shaman 1,2 mm, Canis 1 mm.

[DSH007]

I personally thought the most egregious "elephants" in the Reveal were the Cruwear Stretch XL and the fancypants SpyOpera.. but yeah, there was definitely some sticker shock associated with the LT3 LW as well.. based on materials, construction & my own perceptions of how the LT3 LW ranks among competing models (Spyderco & others), I was expecting this one to come in around $135 to maybe $150 on the high end. So yes, I think $175 is high.. however, I still plan on buying this one because I truly appreciate the model.. the design is worth the extra $ to me, but I certainly understand why so many are raising eyebrows. When it comes right down to it though, the price is what the price is.. buy it or don't.

[sal]

Hi Dan,

We do have a design for a 3.5" version, but based on this thread, it's not likely to be made. I guess we'll just have to "hide-n-watch" what happens.

If we were going to be greedy, why would be just be greedy with one model?

sal

[Manixguy@1994]

I personally thought the most egregious "elephants" in the Reveal were the Cruwear Stretch XL and the fancypants SpyOpera.. but yeah, there was definitely some sticker shock associated with the LT3 LW as well.. based on materials, construction & my own perceptions of how the LT3 LW ranks among competing models (Spyderco & others), I was expecting this one to come in around $135 to maybe $150 on the high end. So yes, I think $175 is high.. however, I still plan on buying this one because I truly appreciate the model.. the design is worth the extra $ to me, but I certainly understand why so many are raising eyebrows. When it comes right down to it though, the price is what the price is.. buy it or don't.

I have been reading this thread for two days and this is the my favorite . The last sentence says it all . MG2

[Roefisher]

Although I don't follow all the news with XL makeovers, I have noticed a couple of them recently.

I know it's a one shop exclusive and not likely to ever happen but I always thought an XL WolfSpyder would have been an excellent big knife, especially with the rare scandi grind.

And, back on topic, the other one I always thought would be great in a big knife is the Lil' Temperance (and I think the handle depth on this model would really carry off a nice colour, like say red or the previously used green).

[wrdwrght]

Hi Dan,

We do have a design for a 3.5" version, but based on this thread, it's not likely to be made. I guess we'll just have to "hide-n-watch" what happens.

If we were going to be greedy, why would be just be greedy with one model?

sal

Well, lookee lookee, complainers…consequences.

But, hey, if you can’t have it your way, burn it down, right?

[DSH007]

Thanks for the acknowledgement Dan (MG2), it's always nice to know at least one person reads my posts!

Sal - I don't think Spyderco is "being greedy." I don't really think anyone here does (well.. except maybe the one @55hole on page 3..). I don't doubt the LT3 LW costs what it costs to make in Japan and I'm sure Spyderco is passing on the best possible price to the customer. I also don't think there is any issue with people voicing pricing concerns as long as it's done in a respectful manner..

I think the issue people have with the LT3 LW is that when they look critically at the overall Spyderco line-up, the (perceived) value doesn't quite add up. At face value.. I can see how it doesn't make sense to people that a VG-10 (typically much less expensive), FRN (typically much less expensive) compression lock LT3 LW costs more than a S45VN (objectively better steel), G10 (typically more expensive than FRN) compression lock PM2. I can see how it doesn't make sense to people that on the same page of latest reveal, right next to the LT3 LW, sits the LeafJumper.. a VG-10, FRN backlock.. at nearly half the price (the addition of a compression lock accounts for ~ $80?). Based upon just these two examples (not to mention including the rest of the Spyderco lineup - Para 3 LW $60 less!!)), the LT3 becomes a tough recommendation for me to make to someone in the market for a new knife.. maybe for their first and only knife.. because a new (base model) PM2 is going to offer objectively better steel/materials/construction for a few dollars less. A new LeafJumper will offer similar excellent neutral ergos with the same steel & handle material at almost half the price. This leaves the LT3 in a tough spot value-wise, relegating interest to the most serious collectors or those that just really like the design (me).. unfortunately dooming an another excellent knife to early discontinuation.

Certain models just make more sense than others from a "value" perspective and looking at the LT3 LW against the rest of the production lineup, it becomes a tough sell. I know there is a lot of nuance in manufacturing leading to why certain knives cost what they do and I know Spyderco always strives to find balance.. it's unfortunate that great designs sometimes get priced out of consideration due to manufacturing concerns, but I suppose it's a matter of "it is what it is" here. When it comes down to it, I'd much prefer the option to buy a knife at whatever the price ends up being vs not having the option to buy it at all..

[huyfishin]

The price for this knife is stupid and greedy, plain and simple.
Sal can defend his pricing all he wants, and the enablers of Sal who take his word as gospel can also defend the knife. You are entitled to your opinion, just as the dissenters are.
Spyderco used to be a good company of value folders. I bought my first one in 1994. Since then, quality is down, value is down and if you dont like it, you get modded or piled on by the jock sniffers for speaking the truth.
If I hear "how does it cut" one more time when the issue isn't how the knife cuts but how the knife got out the door with such lousy QA/QC, I'm gonna scream.
Your dont like our lousy attempt at Ayoob serrations, tough.
You dont like un-symmetrical apex's, tough.
You dont like the unfinished grind marks in your M4 Micarta Shaman, tough.
You dont like knives being shipped with loose or stripped out screws in the pocket clip, tough.
You dont like the fact we showed a titanium pocket clip on the reveal, but we shipped your $320 titanium knife with a stainless clip, tough.

Most of them time If I see something I like but I can't afford it then I just move on. I dont try to insult the company manufacturing it.

[Toucan]

I just want to remind everyone with sticker shock about the LT3 LW that you can buy an uncoated Ambitious Lightweight for $38!

That's a proper workhorse knife for less than forty bucks! It's a good deal you can get any day of the week.

It's easy to get jaded or lose faith in a company when it feels they value profits above customers, but I don't think this is the case here. The pricing is unfortunate, and I wanted to know exactly why it was the way it was, but greed was never an implication.

[dammyippon]

I own a knife shop here in Iceland and I deal with manufacturers from Japan, Italy, China, The US....and wholesellers from The US and Europe and I can't think of one reputable knife manufacturer that's greedy or ripping customers off.
Often different designs with the same materials from the same factory cost different to make! Sometimes the difference is suprisingly large. There is also a difference in margins between using an OEM and making something in your own factory.

[ZrowsN1s]

I'm not sure people understand what they're asking for.

Is your stance that the Seki makers should only produce the FRN Delica/Endura family from now on. No more Seki G-10 knives, no more more challenging or new models from there? Nothing with a MAP above $150?

Even if Spyderco was willing to move production and damage their relationship with Seki, what knives get bumped from the production que to make the Stretch XL in Golden or Taichung?

I guess what I'm getting at here is, unless you think sal is lying, these knives can't be made cheaper. And knowing that production isn't going to be moved.... Should we just not make those knives at all then? Because that's what I'm hearing.

Maybe I'm wrong but I'm hearing the Lil Temp, stetch xl, etc shouldn't have been made if it's going to cost that much. Which I wholeheartedly disagree with.

I get that you don't like the price, what's your solution? Should possible future projects like a 3.5 Lil Temp be abandoned? The G-10 Stretch XL or Police never made again?

Should they cease pushing the envelope? Making Sprints? Bringing new challenging designs to market because Seki models cost more than Golden models?

That's along the same logic as that guy who thought the Urban sprint shouldn't be made at all because it costs him too much in Europe.

Do I wish the Stretch was cheaper? Of course! I wish everything was 2016 prices again. But do I want them to not make it all because it's more expensive than a completely different knife made in a different country? NO.