Hey Sal, any chance of a Vanax SC mule??

[Bloke]

We made a mule for testing which I am doing now in the kitchen and outside. We also made some CATRA mules which we'll also be testing this afternoon.

sal

That's awesome! :cool:

[Surfingringo]

...I hope to give it a run along side either my Sprig or maybe Maxamet Mule after I set a 30deg bevel on it and either Sprig or Mule to have a control of sorts. I'll use the blade which is closest to width behind the edge after they're sharpened...

Hi Bloke,

I'm looking forward to hearing about your test results. :)

Do you (by chance) have any knives in Elmax, S35VN or even M390/CTS204P/20CV? The reason I ask is for comparisons in your testing. There's nothing wrong with comparing to S90V and Maxamet if that's your best option. It's just that Vanax isn't the kind of steel that will hold an edge like S90V or Maxamet (not much does :D ). Vanax edge holding is closer to Elmax/S35VN. Vanax toughness is also much higher than S90V or Maxamet (& Elmax & S35VN for that matter). Vanax probably can't hold an edge as long as M390 either but it's still going to be closer to Vanax than S90V. For corrosion resistance comparison, I think LC200N is the only steel to realistically compare it to (both based on results and the fact that they are both Nitrogen steels), but your results will be impressive with or without a direct LC200N comparison. No big deal if you don't have steels I'm suggesting, I just thought I'd ask in case you have those options easily available to you.

Best regards,

Chad

Thanks for the heads ups Chad.

The closest I have are 204p and S30V Militaries.

Luong's knife if fairly thin behind the edge that's why I was thinking Sprig and Mule. I haven't measured it because my micrometer and vernier are at Mum and Dad's place with my lathe but I'm mobile again and I'll start playing with it over the weekend.

I'm certainly open to suggestion but I'm thinking now I may just do a stand alone series of cutting tests with it.

As far as corrosion resistance goes if it hasn't even discoloured sitting in saltwater in 30degC+ heat in a week and a half I'd say it's rust resistant. :cool:

Personally, if you’re willing to put in the time, I’d like to see you test the sprig, s30v Millie and test knife all together. I know it’s kind of apples and oranges given the thicker grind of the Millie but it’s a steel and a model that many are familiar with so it might provide a decent performance benchmark.

[sal]

All of our CATRA test pieces are the same size and geometry so comparisons are more accurate. We have plenty of history on S30V and S90V.

sal

[Surfingringo]

All of our CATRA test pieces are the same size and geometry so comparisons are more accurate. We have plenty of history on S30V and S90V.

sal

Curious to hear how they compare in Catra testing Sal. Hope you can share here. Just got off the phone with Bloke and he’s planning to test s90, s30 and Vanax. He’s already got lots of info on corrosion resistance but I won’t steal his thunder.

[Bloke]

Personally, if you’re willing to put in the time, I’d like to see you test the sprig, s30v Millie and test knife all together. I know it’s kind of apples and oranges given the thicker grind of the Millie but it’s a steel and a model that many are familiar with so it might provide a decent performance benchmark.

OK, this morning I set new 30deg bevels to 1200grit bonded diamond and 3 light passes either side with chrome oxide on leather strop at 40deg all on a guided system (Hapstone Pro) on Millie, Spring and Vanax and I got them all as evenly sharp as an old blind man can. All pop hair and push cut newsprint and phone book paper.

The Vanax was a pleasure to sharpen and responds more like Carbon Steel than typical Stainless I'd say. It was easier to sharpen than S30V and it would go silly sharp much easier than the other two.

Anyhow, I was just about done sharpening and wanted to start cutting stuff this afternoon when a mate turned up on his way home to the Southern Highlands after visiting his sister up the coast. The maniac drunk the few beers in the fridge and he's gone to get more because he's decided he'll camp here tonigh and leave in the morning. Ah, hahaha! If it's not one thing it's another!

Anyhow, I'll get to cutting something with Luong's knife sooner or later. :rolleyes:

[bluntcut]

Bloke - thanks for updates on vanax edge sharpening & keenness. Your thoughts/feedback on its cutting performance? I will put together another vanax knife with similar construction as the one you are testing, except about 1rc harder.

Yesterday, I HT 2.5 a Vanax blade. Peak 63rc, tempered @350F to 62.5rc working hardness.

Tested 62.5rc, 14dps, 0.007" BET, 3K diamond plate edge:
Passed whittle mod-to-hard woods. Rolled on African Blackwood(AB) and dried beef rib bone.
Passed chop olive & bamboo. Micro chips on AB.

[Bloke]

Bloke - thanks for updates on vanax edge sharpening & keenness. Your thoughts/feedback on its cutting performance? I will put together another vanax knife with similar construction as the one you are testing, except about 1rc harder.

Yesterday, I HT 2.5 a Vanax blade. Peak 63rc, tempered @350F to 62.5rc working hardness.

Tested 62.5rc, 14dps, 0.007" BET, 3K diamond plate edge:
Passed whittle mod-to-hard woods. Rolled on African Blackwood(AB) and dried beef rib bone.
Passed chop olive & bamboo. Micro chips on AB.

G'day Luong,

Mate as I said in my mail to you this knife is great and I'm having fun playing with it. I've learned a fair bit too and some of the results in comparing it with S30V and S90V have been most surprising.

I'm just having trouble posting pictures and it's causing me distress. Hopefully I'll sort it out tonight and I'll give you all and update thus far.

[Deadboxhero]

Back from Brad at Peters Heat Treat.



Grinds great, very smooth.



Did some tests with the rough grind at 0.022" 15dps



Sharpens great, better then Elmax, Takes a high polish with ease. Gets very crisp without effort and deburrs like a champ. All good signs, edge is stable too.

Too dang thick though so it was back to the belts and the sandpaper to get a 0.012 15dps (which looks like a microbevel)



Chad's been showing me the ropes.:D

I'll get a handle on the puppy so I can play with the big boys too. I'm curious how it stacks up against my Nitro V at 63-64hrc. I'll test next weekend, Nitrogen Steels are very exciting for edge guys. I could care less about the corrision resistance, these steels take killer edges and have great stability compared to other stainless steels.

Cool stuff.



Sal, I look forward to getting a piece in my pocket one day from ya

[sal]

Hi Hero, Bloke, Bluntcut,

Thanx for doing tests and experiments. I have a Mule team piece that we made for my own testing. It did warp more than we expected in HT. Have you had any problems with warping?

We're still negotiating with Uddeholm on production costs. We might get to something reasonable? The original costs were way to high for production runs. Even the pieces we got from Alpha were very high, but acceptable considering the small volume.

sal.

[bluntcut]

Hi Sal,

Very minimal warping, especially for my earlier ht where AQ HRC is around 62 +- 0.25. Most recent ht (AQ 63rc)has a little more warping, probably due to FFG with pre-ht edge around 0.03". In general, I left pre-ht edge thick to compensate for denitrogen layer. If (hopefully when) my next AQ hits around 64rc, warp will magnify any lopsided grind and uneven LN2 dunk.

Reading the fine print - negotiating with BU on prices ... Glad Vanax is on Spyderco's Radar. Your thought/finding on vanax mule performance?

==Luong/Bluntcut

Hi Hero, Bloke, Bluntcut,

Thanx for doing tests and experiments. I have a Mule team piece that we made for my own testing. It did warp more than we expected in HT. Have you had any problems with warping?

We're still negotiating with Uddeholm on production costs. We might get to something reasonable? The original costs were way to high for production runs. Even the pieces we got from Alpha were very high, but acceptable considering the small volume.

sal.

Bloke - Thanks for the updates & email. I really appreciate your testing/finding. I helped steer my ht.

[Deadboxhero]

Interesting, no warping but I had it treated at full thickness.

Give Chad a PM, he is the Vanax Expert.


Very excited to see Vanax in a Spydie.

I'd say it's good enough to not just be for the salt line either.

VANAX Military anyone!? :D

[Xplorer]

Hi Hero, Bloke, Bluntcut,

Thanx for doing tests and experiments. I have a Mule team piece that we made for my own testing. It did warp more than we expected in HT. Have you had any problems with warping?

We're still negotiating with Uddeholm on production costs. We might get to something reasonable? The original costs were way to high for production runs. Even the pieces we got from Alpha were very high, but acceptable considering the small volume.

sal.

Hi Sal,

I'm glad to hear it's not just me. 60-70% of the Vanax blades I've heat treated have had some degree of warping. Most of the time the warping has been very slight but occasionally I've had to heat and straighten tangs between the first and second temper. I heat treat LC200N, 20CV, M390, S35VN, M4, 4V, Cruwear, CPM154 and 52100 and none of those have given me the same warping challenges.

I don't have enough data to know why exactly this is occurring. The first blade that showed some warping had a pre-grind on the bevel. That blade also didn't give us the results we were expecting with regard to edge performance. All Vanax knives I've made subsequently have been heat treated at full thickness (no pre-grind) and still I see minor warping about 60% of the time. The edge performance is excellent now, but I don't have enough data to say with certainty that heat treating at full thickness is or isn't a factor. I have made adjustments to the size and shape of the stainless steel envelope that encloses the blade during the austenitizing phase. I have made adjustments to the quenching process to ensure both sides of the blade contact the quench plates at exactly the same time. I've made sure the plates are identical temp. I've experimented with various amounts of pressure on the plates. I've also experimented with quenching down to various temps and allowing air cooling to take place from there. I've quenched down to 900F and air cooled, down to 500F and air cooled, and quenched all the way down to room temp. Nothing so far, has completely eliminated the warping... although I must say now it is usually so slight that it is easily cleaned up. If (when) I figure out the ultimate solution I will pass it on to you if you'd like.

Best regards,

Chad

[Deadboxhero]

Gotta Say, I'm really enjoying how well this stuff sharpens for 3.5% Vanadium. Take Elmax (which sharpens good) and make it sharpen better. It must have a fine structure to it.

I used the Naniwa Choseras 400 and 1000, then a diamond compound strop.

Me likely.








15dps look like a microbevel since I'm running it at 0.012 behind edge.

[sal]

Good stuff. We're always learning. Thanx for sharing.

sal

[Bloke]

I’ve been playing with Luong’s knife for a month now and I’m enjoying Vanax SC with this particular heat treat immensely.

The knife came finished at a rough guess on a 120grit belt, hand sharpened to 3000grit, I believe and sharp. A section of the blade near the heel freely whittled free hanging hair.

I cut up a tomato with it the day it arrived and left it unwashed overnight and all the next day on a window sill that gets plenty of sunlight till I got home from work with zero effect. No staining and the edge still whittled hair.

It’s been quiet hot here with temps going to 35 deg C so I propped the knife in a fast food container and wrapped the blade with tissue paper, wet it with salt water and added 1/4” of saltwater to the container to set up a wicking affect with the handle staying dry and left it on the same sill for a week adding water daily so that it didn’t evaporate. This had zero effect on the blade and it still whittled hair and that’s where the knife’s stayed when not used I just add more briny so it’s consistently wet and it’s not been rinsed. It’s still there as I type with zero effect after a month.



I set up my guided sharpening system (Hapstone Pro) and meticulously to the best of my ability set new 30deg bevels to the Vanax SC, my S30V Military and S90V Sprig. The first thing that struck me was how effortlessly Vanax SC sharpened with freshly lapped SiC stones. I sharpened all three knives to a 1200grit bonded diamond, bumped up the angle 5deg, changed to a leather strop loaded with chrome oxide and finished. I checked to ensure all three were as sharp as one another by letting the blades bite into the stubble on my face and found the S30V and S90V required a few more licks of the strop. In the end all edges popped hair the length of each blade, sailed through newsprint and were all as evenly sharp is I could feel.



After Sharpening Thickness Behind the Edge:
Vanax SC - 0.011”
S90V Sprig - 0.016”
S30V Military - 0.029”



The first cutting comparison between the blades was the mandatory cardboard which consisted of cutting a new flat packed (1/4” thick) box against the internal corrugations. I slice cut 10 x 42” lengths with the Vanax after which it would scrape shave and only just slice newsprint. I did another 10 cuts and not much changed. It would barely scrape hair from my arm and barely sliced newsprint. I did another 10 cuts for a total of 30 x 42” or 105 linear feet by which time it wouldn’t shave at all or slice newsprint. I did exactly the same with S30V Military and S90V Sprig and was dumbstruck to find for all practical intent and purpose all three blades performed about the same. I was confused to say the least, counted the three different piles of cardboard, checked the edges on my arm and my thigh for shaving, tried slicing newsprint again and scratched my head. I could understand the similarities in Vanax and S30V but S90V had me bamboozled. I thought it would have left the other two in it’s wake. I was seriously confused and rang Lance (Surfingringo) who basically laughed and said it is what it is.



(I just put all three piles of cardboard together here rather than three different pics and I should probably done the same with the rope pics)

I was going to resharpen all three again as I had from the start for some rope cutting but Lance suggested I just use my SharpMaker so I did. Under a dozen ultra light passes on the medium rods with the SM sitting unrestrained on a bench top had the Vanax and S30V arguably sharper than when I started. It took a few more strokes for the S90V but not many.

I checked as before with face stubble and shaving my rapidly denuding arm and legs and all felt as sharp as one another again so I went to cutting 16mm diameter, slightly used Sisal rope.

I did 20 slicing cuts with the Vanax after which it scrape shaved and sliced newsprint. I did another 30 cuts and it wasn’t scrape shaving too well and only just barely sliced newsprint. I did another 30 cuts and it didn’t scrape hair or slice newsprint any more. I did another 40 cuts for a total of 120 and the Vanax still cut the rope cleanly. I did the same with S30V and S90V and again was left scratching my head because the only discernible difference was toward the end. Maybe the thickness behind the edge or scale shape made it feel as though I needed more downward pressure to cut with the S30V Military. Other than that it was the same as the cardboard cutting. No particular steel stood out except for the fact that running all three blades into the end of my thumb nail the Vanax was smooth the entire length where as the S30V and the S90V both seemed to have ever so slight rough spots.







That’s it for now but I’m not done yet and there’s still more to come.

If anyone has anything at all they’d like to see me try with the knife please feel free to suggest it.

[Deadboxhero]

Good read, thanks bloke. Very cool, felt like I was there

[Bloke]

Good read, thanks bloke. Very cool, felt like I was there

Ah, hahaha! Thanks DBH! :)

I’m really enjoying this steel and it’s really been an eye opener comparing it to S30V and S90V.

[Deadboxhero]

Can't wait to join you with all the fun! I'm working on a handle right now. I've always wanted Jade G10 with blue liners. See what happens.
So far, very laser like. I'm curious how tough it is. I'm afraid to damage something I've worked so hard on but my curiosity always gets the best of me.

[Xplorer]

... and scratched my head. I could understand the similarities in Vanax and S30V but S90V had me bamboozled...

Thank you for sharing the pics and your finding. It's great to see some more testing taking place. I did some similar testing and went into it with a fair degree of skepticism. The results also had me scratching my head..I really didn't think an ultra-corrosion resistant steel could hold an edge like this. I'm a believer now!

A very brief summary of my testing ... I did identical tests for 2 Vanax knives with different heat treat protocols.
I did 100 6" cardboard cuts.


Followed by 50 nylon rope cuts


And for the heck of it..i whacked the side of a bamboo cutting board 500 times.


Using my Sharpmaker, it took 20 swipes on each side to get the blade back to hair slicing sharp. I didn't do any corrosion testing because I was going to send the blades to Lance anyway...which is basically equivalent to sending them to a lab for accelerated corrosion testing .

I'm beyond impressed with what I'm seeing so far. Your tests (Bloke), Lances tests, and my tests have all shown about the same results. Near corrosion proof steel with S30V or better edge retention. That's awesome steel! :D

Best regards,
Chad

[Bloke]

Near corrosion proof steel with S30V or better edge retention. That's awesome steel! :D

I think you’ve summed it up very well Chad and I’m very happy that we’re all seeing similar and positive results. :cool:

I’ve got a bit more to do yet particularly with regard to toughness but so far the example I’ve been playing with is certainly proving to be an awesome steel. :)