Edge Angle Guide AG1 - experiences and discussion

[Zendemic]

Really wanted to get one of these, and dropped by the SFO today, and to my dismay they had no more in stock!

[jackknifeh]

I wrote a 3 page review on this little guy. Rather than bore anyone, here are the talking points.

On one hand we got exactly what we asked for and it does EXACTLY what it claims, and it is the ONLY device I know of for under a hundred dollars that accomplishes this task easily.

On the other hand, my silly whims now want angle measurement precision under a degree and this only gives 5 degree precision. And while it accomplishes a difficult task at a low cost, the task is not something that most people need.

I think those seeking measurements for the sake of trivial discussion will grow tired of the difficulty in using this device. OTOH, those who are very familiar with edge inspections/reprofiling will find it fairly simple to use (at least in my opinion).

I hesitate to predict how popular this may be. My hunch is a lot of people will want it, but few will use it beyond the first week of owning it. I could be TOTALLY wrong though.

I am thankful that Spyderco produces this sort of thing...I hope this (above) is of value to someone. This is my feedback/opinions nothing more.

TO THE SPYDER CREW:
I agree with the above review. I used mine for a few days but don't think it'll be used much in the future. There is another one I found on a web site by accident after I got the Spyderco one. The angles for most knives on the other one are divided into 2.5 degree increments.

I think if Spyderco wants to design something like this that may REALLY be useful make a square or rectangle one with notches alonge the side(s) in increments of 1 degree from the lowest reasonable angle up to 45 degrees or whatever you feel is appropriate. Make a little stand so you don't have to hold the thing. A guide with flat sides will fit in a stand well. The stand should hold the gauge leaning back a little for better viewing. The knife blade could rest in the groove with the handle resting on the table behind it. A light and magnifying glass and you should be able to see what you need to. Customer's could make their own stand with a piece of wood and cut a notch in it though. No big deal and not everyone may want a stand. I'd rather pay $25 for a tool I'll use than $10 for something I'll seldom or never use. No shipping of course. Sorry, bad joke.

I think it's a good idea but needs a little tweeking to be a useful item. I guess you may want to leave the spyder in the middle for advertising. If someone sees it they will know it is a Spyderco product and if they don't they may say "why is there a spider in the middle of your useful and beautiful knife edge angle guide?" Then the Spyderco praise begins. Any opportunity to bring a company name into a conversation is good. Might even sell a few more knives as a result (if you are interested in that lol).

Hope this is helpful,
Jack

[JT]

Quick thoughts:

-numbers on both sides please.
-angle markings clockwise please, 5, 10, 15 etc...
-a bit hard to read, like others have said allready. It's a feature I guess, nothing wrong with this :spyder: version especially
-LOVE the looks! Notably the bug in the middle... Sal, when you're going to sell those cutouts? :D

Seriously, like I've said before, (and I'll keep on whining about this :D ) you guys should take advantage of the spyderhole cutouts, and the bug.. make some cool lanyard items out of them, and why not even jewellery. Bug lanyard fobs/beads/pendants would sell like hotcakes.

I'd buy a silver bug pendant in a heartbeat. (In fact, I'd try to make my own out of silver for personal use, if I'd had your permission to use the bug logo . :) )

[jackknifeh]

TO THE SPYDER CREW:
I agree with the above review. I used mine for a few days but don't think it'll be used much in the future. There is another one I found on a web site by accident after I got the Spyderco one. The angles for most knives on the other one are divided into 2.5 degree increments.

I think if Spyderco wants to design something like this that may REALLY be useful make a square or rectangle one with notches alonge the side(s) in increments of 1 degree from the lowest reasonable angle up to 45 degrees or whatever you feel is appropriate. Make a little stand so you don't have to hold the thing. A guide with flat sides will fit in a stand well. The stand should hold the gauge leaning back a little for better viewing. The knife blade could rest in the groove with the handle resting on the table behind it. A light and magnifying glass and you should be able to see what you need to. Customer's could make their own stand with a piece of wood and cut a notch in it though. No big deal and not everyone may want a stand. I'd rather pay $25 for a tool I'll use than $10 for something I'll seldom or never use. No shipping of course. Sorry, bad joke.

I think it's a good idea but needs a little tweeking to be a useful item. I guess you may want to leave the spyder in the middle for advertising. If someone sees it they will know it is a Spyderco product and if they don't they may say "why is there a spider in the middle of your useful and beautiful knife edge angle guide?" Then the Spyderco praise begins. Any opportunity to bring a company name into a conversation is good. Might even sell a few more knives as a result (if you are interested in that lol).

Hope this is helpful,
Jack

I didn't quote myself because I'm high on myself. I did it because I really like the ideas I had for an edge angle guide. Having said that I used the one I got when you released them today and was really happy with how easy it was to use and it was very accurate with the angle I had on the knife I used it on. The only way a customer can trust a tool like this one is to know the angles are correct on the guide. The first way to trust the angles on the guide is to trust Spyderco. That is not hard to do from what I've seen with experience I've had with the company. The second way is to know the angle on your knife and compare it with the guide. I did both. I've been having difficulty with the guide since I got it but I think I just had to get used to using it. Mainly it's a matter of holding everything so you can see closely enough to read the guide. I still think if you could make one with a notch for every degree that would be nice. One reason I said the gauge was accurate and easy to read is I put an edge on the blade that matched a groove on the gauge. When the edge is between the grooves it's harder to read. I'm really not that picky but if there is a tool I think it should be as accurate and thorough as possible. I still think a stand would help but that could be home made. Please make it with flat sides though. If you do that I'll probably get that model as well. If you are still considering putting it into full production maybe a poll would be appropriate to see what your potential customers would like. Like I said I'd buy another one if you made it like I suggested. I'm sure others may have suggestions also. I would like to hear them.

Jack

[jackknifeh]

One thing I forgot to mention. The eye protectors for the tip. I don't like them. Sometimes they get in the line of sight. So I just put a piece of electrical tape on the tip. It worked well enough I guess. I still have one eye left.

If you could design something smaller it would be nice.

Jack

[The Mastiff]

This product is something I've been wanting for about 40 years. I sure wish I would have had one back when I was learning.

I've always had to guestimate what my average working knife angle was and I finally was able to measure it. 30 degrees is pretty much what they are at, unless it's a special purpose or experimental knife where I'm satisfying my darksider tendencies.

The first knife I measured, a Byrd Cara Cara was exactly 30 degrees. Most of my Enduras in VG10 or earlier were the same. The ZDP knives were averaging 25 to 20 degrees depending on the grind and expected uses.

I've got poor night and close in vision but I've found that if I hold it sort of under the lamp I can see it perfectly. Without that extra light I have trouble but that's coming from a guy that lost his night vision when I had laser surgery, and my close in vision as I got old. I have no idea how a person with normal vision will make out.

I would have paid a lot more for this, truth be told.

Thanks Sal & Spyderco crew.

Joe L.

[jzmtl]

I've used it a few times, and here's my thought.

It's very useful for new knives right out of box, where the edge is more or less a V. But problem arise when it has been hand sharpened a few times, since I'm not a robot the result is usually a somewhat convex edge, plus I always do a microbevel. Couple this with the cutout line to protect the edge, it's difficult to gauge the actual edge angle as the tip of edge would sink into that line instead.

Still at this price point it's great, if not somewhat limited in use. If the said cutout could be made thinner it would be more useful, thou there's also a higher chance of damage the edge.

[The General]

Yes, its a useful tool. I just tested it and noticed my UKPK was running 15 degree's per side. This is too fine an edge in my opinion for S30V, certainly for the work I use mine for.

So I just put a microbevel at 20 degree's per side on using the white sharpmaker stones and the sharpmaker. Then stropped.

The edge is still 95% as sharp as it was (shaves arm hairs easily) but a much more durable edge. I had noticed the knife was prone to tiny nicks and what not. I had not realised it was running such a fine edge as I mostly sharpen free hand nowerdays.

Thanks Sal, this was definiatly useful to me!

Using it required the use of the tip protector and holding the device to the light, just so. Then I was able to see clearly what the edge was running.

It was a little bit fiddly but worked perfectly for me. Again, angles on both sides please!

To anyone who wants to know what a blade is sharpened to, from the box or otherwise and intends to sharpen themselves. I think this is a very useful tool.

Truthfully... I cannot see many people buying this, certainly not a large sales item. I do think its a useful addition to the sharpening line though. I think anyone who free hand sharpens would be well advised to buy one though.

One problem now though is as I have a very slight microbevel at 20 degree's, this is barely noticable and the result still shows as 15 degree's per side as the microbevel is so slight, its very hard to see.

Thus this tool is questionably useful for those knives with a microbevel.

[Hector Castro]

I am having issues using this on FFG blades. The edge is so small/thin, that it slips into the cutout/relief groove in the angle gauge. This makes it easy to measure the sides of the blade, but not the edge itself. I will try it on a sabre ground blade and get back to you on how it works on them.

[Hector Castro]

Works well on hollow ground blades, but not on FFG ones. The edge is just too thin, and it falls into the cutout/relief. Is anyone else seeing this issue, or am I doing something wrong?

[jzmtl]

There are hundreds sold, gotta be some more feedbacks?

I've been using it and so far my only complain is the relief cutout is too wide, edge tend to sink in and can't be measured.

[phaust]

Works well on hollow ground blades, but not on FFG ones. The edge is just too thin, and it falls into the cutout/relief. Is anyone else seeing this issue, or am I doing something wrong?

If it's the correct angle, the edge of the knife should follow along the angle guide's edges before the cutout, meaning the edge itself should not fall into the cutout, never mind the flat ground part of the blade (i.e., the part above the edge). Put another way, that it is flat ground should have no influence on the angle guide's ability. If the edge falling in, the angle you're using is larger than the edge of the knife, so you should try a smaller angle.

Maybe someone with gimp/photoshop/ms paint skills could draw how it should look to make it more clear (I tried and failed, sorry :/).

edit: alright, tried again and it came out alright this time, hope it helps. The black part is supposed to be an edge and the lower part of a full flat ground blade, while the silver part is an angle guide. If the sides of the angle guide follow the *entire* length of the edge (meaning no gap between the edge and guide at any point), then it's the correct angle (at least that's how I have assumed it works--I'll 2nd that directions should be included with it in the future).

[phaust]

Here are two more complementary pics to go with the last one in that they show the other two cases:



Notice that the edge touches the guide at the top, but there's space between them at the bottom. This means the edge is more acute than this angle of the guide, so one should try a smaller one.



This is the opposite case. The edge is more obtuse, so try a larger angle.


IMO if directions are included with the next version, some pictures like these would be very handy (of course, they should be done with more than a laptop touchpad and Paint :p )

edit: fixed

[jzmtl]

But you are assuming the edge is a perfect single bevel V, which usually isn't unless it's either factory edge or sharpened with a jig like edgepro.

[jackknifeh]

But you are assuming the edge is a perfect single bevel V, which usually isn't unless it's either factory edge or sharpened with a jig like edgepro.

I think you nailed it jzmtl. There are too many variables involved for the edge guide to be practical. Maybe the edge is a convex edge. Plus the thing is really hard for me to see. My eye sight isn’t the best though. Also, I have an edge pro and can use it to determine the angle on a blade. Of course you can’t carry it with you all the time like you could the edge guide.

I made some suggestions after using the guide for about a week. I haven’t needed it since because I don’t mess with many knives other than ones I sharpen which are mine, family or friends and I know what angle is on those knives.

Minimal suggestions to make this tool easier to use:
1. Make it rectangular in shape.
2. Make a small stand for the guide to sit in standing up. The stand needs only be a small piece of plastic with a slot cut in it for the guide to be inserted in so it will stand up. I made one out of wood. After making one and using it I’d call this a requirement. The rectangular shape would make it easier to use with a stand.
3. Make a groove for every angle that a knife would normally be sharpened to. I’d suggest an inclusive angle of 20 through 40. Some may want lower and higher angles.

With the stand you could set the edge of a knife in a groove, lay the handle on the table and hopefully the knife would sit there on its own and there would be no movement as you glance from side to side using a magnifying glass. That was a big problem for me, holding everything still so I could look close enough. You could pick just the blade up and move it to the groove that matches the edge of the knife.

There is still the issue of whether the edge is a V with flat edges on each side. The groove at the bottom of each angle is too wide on the experimental model. I agree with that.

I think a poll asking all who bought one if they would get another if they lost theirs would tell the Spyderco folks a lot. My vote would be no I wouldn’t get one unless my suggestions were used as well as suggestions from others. Not that my suggestions are perfect but I really think the guide and knife need to sit there without me holding it in place. I’m still not sure how much I would use one though. If I liked it and in some way needed to determine the angle on knives I’d definitely get one. I can’t help but think it is a good idea just not something I would need.

I meant to give my impression sooner but I forgot the guide existed. That's how much I used it.

I think the folks at Spyderco deserve a thanks for experimenting with a product their customers may like.

Jack

[pleeho]

Alot of youz are being a bit too harsh on this little gizmo. You can't expect something like this to perform miracles. For instance - determining the blade angle on a convexed point - impossible. An equation, yeah maybe, but not a number.

I find that just as phaust outlines above, you can reasonably determine the approximate angle of your blade directly. It doesn't matter if one side of the edge is of a different angle than the other. You can still estimate it within a ~3degree margin of error. It takes good lighting, a 10x loupe, and a little bit of time and patience, but you can reassure yourself of a decently estimated DIRECT angle measurement which is just about all this device should be expected to do. It would be nice to have a device which gets your angle measurement down to 1-2 degrees, but come on, with this device you can easily estimate it down to about 2-3 degrees which is adequate for any practical purpose.

Estimates from your sharpening procedure (Edge-Pro etc.) is an INDIRECT measurement and also is NOT accurate because it assumes too much (blade clamping/positioning, stone contact angle, consistency of stroke, etc.). Angle measurements from using trigonometry and micrometer measurements are reliable only if you assume a perfectly aligned micrometer pinch and a perfectly aligned & symmetric bevel (something accomplished in practice only using microscoping techniques) - it is similarly an INDIRECT method and suffers from errors of positioning/contact points etc. Almost any other measurement method (wax casting, photographing techniques) suffers from problems which can be criticized also.

Here finally is a device which gives us a reasonably satisfying glimpse at the actual angle of our blades directly. We should be celebrating it and not trashing it.

[jzmtl]

Spyderco made these as experiment, I'm sure they want to hear honest feedback from users, not just hot air on how great it is.

[jackknifeh]

Alot of youz are being a bit too harsh on this little gizmo. You can't expect something like this to perform miracles. For instance - determining the blade angle on a convexed point - impossible. An equation, yeah maybe, but not a number.

I find that just as phaust outlines above, you can reasonably determine the approximate angle of your blade directly. It doesn't matter if one side of the edge is of a different angle than the other. You can still estimate it within a ~3degree margin of error. It takes good lighting, a 10x loupe, and a little bit of time and patience, but you can reassure yourself of a decently estimated DIRECT angle measurement which is just about all this device should be expected to do. It would be nice to have a device which gets your angle measurement down to 1-2 degrees, but come on, with this device you can easily estimate it down to about 2-3 degrees which is adequate for any practical purpose.

Estimates from your sharpening procedure (Edge-Pro etc.) is an INDIRECT measurement and also is NOT accurate because it assumes too much (blade clamping/positioning, stone contact angle, consistency of stroke, etc.). Angle measurements from using trigonometry and micrometer measurements are reliable only if you assume a perfectly aligned micrometer pinch and a perfectly aligned & symmetric bevel (something accomplished in practice only using microscoping techniques) - it is similarly an INDIRECT method and suffers from errors of positioning/contact points etc. Almost any other measurement method (wax casting, photographing techniques) suffers from problems which can be criticized also.

Here finally is a device which gives us a reasonably satisfying glimpse at the actual angle of our blades directly. We should be celebrating it and not trashing it.

Pleeho, I agree with 95% of what you said. We shouldn't expect perfection out of a device like this. I believe it can be improved on but the real question Spyderco has is will people buy this item? That is why I put in my 2 cents. Spyderco makes great knives and seems to respond to customer input as much as any company. The main reason this item sold so fast was excitement generated mainly on this forum. I wonder how many were sold to non-forum readers or their word of mouth. Was there any other advertising? As is, I wouldn't buy another one. The reason is that I really don't have a need for one. If I needed to have a device to estimate the angle of edges with a pocket size tool something like this would be it. However, like any new idea (and this is not tho only edge guide like it out there) improvements can be made. This happens over time and many revisions which come from experience with a tool. I believe this is a great idea and tool but needs some upgrades.

Jack

[jzmtl]

Just want to add some more experience, it works very well for estimating factory edge. By the way a new chinook 3 has a 50° edge at the tip. :eek:

[jackknifeh]

One of the most important things about any tool is accuracy if you know how to use it. Is there someone out there who has 3 knives sharpened to any edge angle as long as they know it is accurate +/- 1 degree? The angles should be considerably different. Let's say between 24 degrees inclusive to 48 degrees inclusive. At least one should NOT be sharpened to an angle that matches a notch exactly like 25, 30, etc. Don't tell anyone what angle it is and get 3 or more people who have used the edge angle guide and understand it's purpose to try to determine the angle without any knowledge of anything about the angle or what anyone else says it is. These people need to have gotten past the learning phase of using the gadget.

I'd love to see if the determinations are close. Regardless of ANY other pro or con about the guide, the results of this experiment if done well and honestly could be the deal breaker on wether or not to manufacture any more guides. I would do it but I don't know a single person that I know of that cares much about knife edge angles much less this guide. The people at the SFO could do this I'm sure and I would trust thier findings but some would say their report may be biased. I could ask my wife to try it thinking she would take the time to learn how to use the guide just to try to help me because she cares about me. But who am I kidding.

The edges should be perfectly flat and a perfect V as much as possible. No convex edges or anything to make this harder. At least not on the first phase of testing.

This gauge could still be useful if one person't findings are different from another's as long as each person knows what their findings mean to them.

I'd really like to see someone try this,
Jack