FYI - all of those Warrior model knives sold outside the U.S. were/are outside the purview of Al Mar Knives - U.S. - Al/Gary Fadden had/have a terrible time with this - to include European sales of Al Mar designs. I won't even mention the sale of "Warriors" and whatnot in Iraq/Afghanistan - all knock-offs and made who knows where to end up in those marketplaces :eek:
There was only one official Colonel James "Nick" Rowe knife/set produced and that was for sale exclusively in the US. Less than 80 sets actually finished/distributed by Al Mar when he was alive. Anything else offered to be a "Nick Rowe" knife or commemorative is bogus. I know this to be fact as I was involved with the project to the degree of being enlisted to write the bio booklet on Rowe by Al Mar, a copy of which was included with every set along with a copy of Rowe's book "Five Years to Freedom".
Article by Janich on Spyderco Warrior in "SWAT magazine"
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Greg Walker
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- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
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Greg Walker
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Sal - Am happy to learn Randy is alive and well and officially retired. Was up at 0200 this morning and happened to read an article he did in OCT 1989 issue of SOF entitled "Circle of Stealth" - regarding training in sentry removal he and Echanis had been working on. Interesting article. Perhaps more interesting are photos of Randy (playing the role of the sentry stalker) using one of the very early handmade knives. This is the only time and place, by caption, I've ever seen it referred to as the "Echanis warrior knife". Now that's a bit of history and along with the serrated upper edge as suggested by MDE ... I think we can say he was initially an early and important contributor to the design and it was - even after his passing - considered as irrevocably linked to Mike Echanisvvia Randy Wanner, his HWD instructor and training partner/teammate, as part of the public record.
Great bit of history!
Great bit of history!
GW
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Greg Walker
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Great respect and thanks to John E Padgett for honoring his Vietnamese friend, interpreter and comrade in arms "Nguyen van Nguyen" with the story "May Buddha Bless Bobby", SOF, October 1982.
I found a copy online and as with all things and people associated with MDE ... there is an element of sadness.
"Nguyen" is described by John as an exceptional Soldier who fought with Special Forces in Vietnam and rose through the ranks to - with the fall of South Vietnam - command a gallant last stand at Ton Son Nhut airport before leading his company out to Vung Tau and "liberating" a fishing boat which he and his paratroopers then sailed out "to meet the Seventh Fleet".
Padgett describes memorable experiences with his friend in Vietnam and then, 8 years later, in Managua, NIC, where they ran into each other at the airport.
It is a wonderful tribute told by someone whose credentials and ability as a writer are without dispute.
Profound in his story is this -
Like Chuck Sanders, "Bobby Ngugen" was very involved with a young woman from Fort Bragg/Fayetteville. She visited Managua where Padgett met her when Bobby introduced them. There is no record given of who she was or whatever may have happened to her.
But it was the following that I found very sad but also very important whenever Michael Echanis is discussed - and that is how he impacted on other people's lives either for good or for naught.
From John Padgett -
"There are two postscripts to this story. One is that Bobby's name was not really Nguyen van Nguyen. Wherever he is, he's having the last laugh on us. When we were together in the Qui Nhon Mike Force days, we were amazed as hot many of our VN recruits' names began with "Nguyen van" The name was 10 times more common than Smith is to Americans. We got to calling the Vietnamese troops "Nguyens" and our version of Sad Sack we called Nguyen van Nguyen. Bobby must have bit his tongue to keep from laughing when he filled that out on his immigration papers.
"The second postscript is personal. I did not want my old friend to pass into the next life wihout sustenance so, as I had too often seen the Vietnamese do for their honored dead, I set a table for him. I lit two candles, and between them I arranged fruit, cheese and a glass of the best wine I had in stock. I unsheathed my Buck knife and placed that near the food, so that my warrior friend would not cross over unarmed."
On September 8, 1978, the Echanis family buried both Michael D Echanis and Bobby Nguyen. Because there was no one to claim his remains and because he was a friend of their son's the family ensured he would be properly cared for in death.
His simple tombstone at Sunset Cemetery in Ontario, Oregon, reads "Bobby - Nigoyen Van Ngoyen - 1946-1978".
I found a copy online and as with all things and people associated with MDE ... there is an element of sadness.
"Nguyen" is described by John as an exceptional Soldier who fought with Special Forces in Vietnam and rose through the ranks to - with the fall of South Vietnam - command a gallant last stand at Ton Son Nhut airport before leading his company out to Vung Tau and "liberating" a fishing boat which he and his paratroopers then sailed out "to meet the Seventh Fleet".
Padgett describes memorable experiences with his friend in Vietnam and then, 8 years later, in Managua, NIC, where they ran into each other at the airport.
It is a wonderful tribute told by someone whose credentials and ability as a writer are without dispute.
Profound in his story is this -
Like Chuck Sanders, "Bobby Ngugen" was very involved with a young woman from Fort Bragg/Fayetteville. She visited Managua where Padgett met her when Bobby introduced them. There is no record given of who she was or whatever may have happened to her.
But it was the following that I found very sad but also very important whenever Michael Echanis is discussed - and that is how he impacted on other people's lives either for good or for naught.
From John Padgett -
"There are two postscripts to this story. One is that Bobby's name was not really Nguyen van Nguyen. Wherever he is, he's having the last laugh on us. When we were together in the Qui Nhon Mike Force days, we were amazed as hot many of our VN recruits' names began with "Nguyen van" The name was 10 times more common than Smith is to Americans. We got to calling the Vietnamese troops "Nguyens" and our version of Sad Sack we called Nguyen van Nguyen. Bobby must have bit his tongue to keep from laughing when he filled that out on his immigration papers.
"The second postscript is personal. I did not want my old friend to pass into the next life wihout sustenance so, as I had too often seen the Vietnamese do for their honored dead, I set a table for him. I lit two candles, and between them I arranged fruit, cheese and a glass of the best wine I had in stock. I unsheathed my Buck knife and placed that near the food, so that my warrior friend would not cross over unarmed."
On September 8, 1978, the Echanis family buried both Michael D Echanis and Bobby Nguyen. Because there was no one to claim his remains and because he was a friend of their son's the family ensured he would be properly cared for in death.
His simple tombstone at Sunset Cemetery in Ontario, Oregon, reads "Bobby - Nigoyen Van Ngoyen - 1946-1978".
GW
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Greg Walker
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- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
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Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
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Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
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Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
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Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
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Greg Walker
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- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
Mike - Wikipedia page updated - you may find of interest - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Echanis :spyder:
GW
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Greg Walker
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- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
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Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
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Greg Walker
- Member
- Posts: 239
- Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2012 9:35 am
- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
Combat / Fighting Knife wise Mike Echanis, as first stated in 1993 in my book "Battle Blades" and then reaffirmed in 2010 by Mike Janich in the Spyderco Warrior booklet, was not involved in the design of the original Hwa Rang Do Warrior Knife. Randy Wanner, the original designer, only showed MDE a prototype and asked for any recommendations. Echanis offered an upper serration feature would be, in his opinion, a good thing. It was later incorporated into the handmade and then production models that came about via Wanner/Bob Taylor/Al Mar.
MDE was first and foremost a Gerber MK II proponent. He would, after his recovery and rehabilitation of wounds suffered in Vietnam, develop his knowledge base and use of the MK II in first Boise, Idaho, and then southern California when he trained with Wanner under the guidance/direction of Grandmaster Joo Bang Lee (Hwa Rang Do). Echanis definitely promoted and taught the use of single and double knife using MK IIs for both the H2H programs at Fort Bragg, NC and Little Creek, VA. He had visited Gerber in the Portland, Oregon, area and was interested in a collaboration between he and the Oregon based cutlery firm for a Echanis-Gerber combat knife before his passing in 1978.
He continued to carry/use/train the Gerber MK II in Nicaragua from September 1978 until his death a year later. Photos taken of MDE at this time do show him carrying a MK II on his left side and a sidearm on the right using a GI pistol belt.
I have seen and read the 1980 letter from Randy Wanner to the Echanis Family regarding his and Bob Taylor's interest in using their son's name/features on a memorial knife. The family declined. Randy did feature an early prototype/handmade version of what he titled in the caption as the "Echanis Warrior Knife" in a post death article he wrote for Soldier of Fortune in its October 1980 issue. In part the caption reads "Curve of the blade on 'Echanis warrior knife' draws it deeper into exposed area."
This is the only time or place I've seen to date where Echanis' name is associated directly with the Warrior.
An aside - Echanis and Sergeant Chuck Sanders (at the time Chuck was still on active duty and with the 5th Special Forces Group at Fort Bragg) were awarded their Hwa Rang Do black belts on April 10, 1975. Both were designated by Grandmaster Joo Bang Lee as 1st DAN "Hand to Hand Combat Military Special Forces Instructor". MDE's BB # is 75-0652 and Chuck's is 75-0653. Both gave their addresses as being in Boise, Idaho, at the time.
On November 10, 1978, Grandmaster Lee and the World Hwa Rang Do Association posthumously promoted both Echanis and Sanders to 3rd DAN Black Sash rank. This to honor their memories and contributions to Hwa Rang Do. Grandmaster Lee, an honorary pall bearer at the funerals for both, held a second memorial service in Downey, California, on September 23, 1978. This was a traditional Buddhist ceremony which Echanis' parents attended.
PS: Just noted my copy of "Battle Blades", 1st Edition 1993, is signed by Robert K. Brown (SOF), Randy Wanner and Bob Taylor. Brought it to the Vegas SOF convention where they graciously looked it over and signed it at my request. Nice :)
MDE was first and foremost a Gerber MK II proponent. He would, after his recovery and rehabilitation of wounds suffered in Vietnam, develop his knowledge base and use of the MK II in first Boise, Idaho, and then southern California when he trained with Wanner under the guidance/direction of Grandmaster Joo Bang Lee (Hwa Rang Do). Echanis definitely promoted and taught the use of single and double knife using MK IIs for both the H2H programs at Fort Bragg, NC and Little Creek, VA. He had visited Gerber in the Portland, Oregon, area and was interested in a collaboration between he and the Oregon based cutlery firm for a Echanis-Gerber combat knife before his passing in 1978.
He continued to carry/use/train the Gerber MK II in Nicaragua from September 1978 until his death a year later. Photos taken of MDE at this time do show him carrying a MK II on his left side and a sidearm on the right using a GI pistol belt.
I have seen and read the 1980 letter from Randy Wanner to the Echanis Family regarding his and Bob Taylor's interest in using their son's name/features on a memorial knife. The family declined. Randy did feature an early prototype/handmade version of what he titled in the caption as the "Echanis Warrior Knife" in a post death article he wrote for Soldier of Fortune in its October 1980 issue. In part the caption reads "Curve of the blade on 'Echanis warrior knife' draws it deeper into exposed area."
This is the only time or place I've seen to date where Echanis' name is associated directly with the Warrior.
An aside - Echanis and Sergeant Chuck Sanders (at the time Chuck was still on active duty and with the 5th Special Forces Group at Fort Bragg) were awarded their Hwa Rang Do black belts on April 10, 1975. Both were designated by Grandmaster Joo Bang Lee as 1st DAN "Hand to Hand Combat Military Special Forces Instructor". MDE's BB # is 75-0652 and Chuck's is 75-0653. Both gave their addresses as being in Boise, Idaho, at the time.
On November 10, 1978, Grandmaster Lee and the World Hwa Rang Do Association posthumously promoted both Echanis and Sanders to 3rd DAN Black Sash rank. This to honor their memories and contributions to Hwa Rang Do. Grandmaster Lee, an honorary pall bearer at the funerals for both, held a second memorial service in Downey, California, on September 23, 1978. This was a traditional Buddhist ceremony which Echanis' parents attended.
PS: Just noted my copy of "Battle Blades", 1st Edition 1993, is signed by Robert K. Brown (SOF), Randy Wanner and Bob Taylor. Brought it to the Vegas SOF convention where they graciously looked it over and signed it at my request. Nice :)
GW
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Greg Walker
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- Location: Pacific Northwest / Alaska (Fairbanks)
As an afterthought to all that's been learned and posted to date -
What is presently in the Spyderco Warrior booklet about Mike Echanis seems, at this point in time, unnecessary given he truly did not have anything to do with the Warrior knife in any of its forms to include the current evolution.
The booklet is more properly centric on Randy Wanner, Bob Taylor/REKAT and Al Mar/Al Mar Knives.
At the very least it would be nice to see the allegation that MDE "stole" funds from the La Habra Hwa Rang Do school to pay his way to Fort Bragg removed.
There is nothing other than Bob Duggan's attribution that this took place to support Echanis being a thief. Grandmaster Joo Bang Lee and Grandmaster Henry Lee have never offered in any public forum I'm aware of that such a theft took place and Grandmaster Henry Lee wrote one of the three new forwards in the Echanis Collection from Black Belt Books (as did Mike Janich and Cam Echanis).
Duggan would be one of the first to offer he and Echanis did not get along and that feeling was deep rooted at the time. Duggan had his falling out with Grandmaster Lee and they with him. I've read Bob D's postings and today can say that some of what he wrote years ago about Echanis I know today to be inaccurate or incorrect. Time and access to heretofore unavailable information allows for that.
In any event Joo Bang Lee, as Henry Lee states in his forward, not only affixed his personal seal to each of the graduation certificates MDE issued at the end of his classes (I have copy of one of these and do attest this is true) held in 1976, but welcomed him back to southern California on numerous occasions while Mike was at Bragg, at Little Creek and then in Nicaragua. MDE remembered Joo Bang Lee in his will, as well.
And Joo Bang Lee attended the funerals in Ontario as an honorary pall bearer and hosted a follow on memorial in southern California afterward.
Hardly the actions and attitudes of someone who had stolen or been stolen from.
And with this in mind I would hope at least that commentary would be removed from the booklet as soon as is possible.
What is presently in the Spyderco Warrior booklet about Mike Echanis seems, at this point in time, unnecessary given he truly did not have anything to do with the Warrior knife in any of its forms to include the current evolution.
The booklet is more properly centric on Randy Wanner, Bob Taylor/REKAT and Al Mar/Al Mar Knives.
At the very least it would be nice to see the allegation that MDE "stole" funds from the La Habra Hwa Rang Do school to pay his way to Fort Bragg removed.
There is nothing other than Bob Duggan's attribution that this took place to support Echanis being a thief. Grandmaster Joo Bang Lee and Grandmaster Henry Lee have never offered in any public forum I'm aware of that such a theft took place and Grandmaster Henry Lee wrote one of the three new forwards in the Echanis Collection from Black Belt Books (as did Mike Janich and Cam Echanis).
Duggan would be one of the first to offer he and Echanis did not get along and that feeling was deep rooted at the time. Duggan had his falling out with Grandmaster Lee and they with him. I've read Bob D's postings and today can say that some of what he wrote years ago about Echanis I know today to be inaccurate or incorrect. Time and access to heretofore unavailable information allows for that.
In any event Joo Bang Lee, as Henry Lee states in his forward, not only affixed his personal seal to each of the graduation certificates MDE issued at the end of his classes (I have copy of one of these and do attest this is true) held in 1976, but welcomed him back to southern California on numerous occasions while Mike was at Bragg, at Little Creek and then in Nicaragua. MDE remembered Joo Bang Lee in his will, as well.
And Joo Bang Lee attended the funerals in Ontario as an honorary pall bearer and hosted a follow on memorial in southern California afterward.
Hardly the actions and attitudes of someone who had stolen or been stolen from.
And with this in mind I would hope at least that commentary would be removed from the booklet as soon as is possible.
GW
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Greg Walker
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no offence intended,
but i suddenly remembered an Echanis inspired fictional character portrayed in the satirical comedy
"The Men Who Stare At Goats"
@7:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=8Zs ... =endscreen
i honestly would like to see a biopic movie depicting the true life of the legendary Echanis someday so someone had better write that book soon!
but i suddenly remembered an Echanis inspired fictional character portrayed in the satirical comedy
"The Men Who Stare At Goats"
@7:23
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=8Zs ... =endscreen
i honestly would like to see a biopic movie depicting the true life of the legendary Echanis someday so someone had better write that book soon!