Any atheist among us?

[UK KEN]

Ken,



I don't have a short answer for this](For the record, I consider faith a wonderful thing, but a great deal of organized religion borders on mental illness. There IS a difference between the two.)[/I]

I will mention, however, that in the area in which I live you are as likely to cause two individuals to initiate a very heated argument (or blows) over their political party affiliations as their faith. :rolleyes:

IMO one's faith *should* be discussed, and I enjoy discussion of it so long as things remain measured and polite. After all, frank and open discussion is a wonderful way to acid-test your own faith; this will either strengthen it or call it into question in your own mind and cause you to rethink your choice.

Either way, you win. :D

--------
Hannibal

Well said! I am amazed by the number of people of different faiths who are not prepared to enter into "measured and polite" conversation about their beliefs because of some perceived threat.

I will and do talk to anyone about what I believe but certainly not in a way intended to change their views or faith, more to explain mine.

Ken

[Hannibal Lecter]

My Dear Ken,

Well said! I am amazed by the number of people of different faiths who are not prepared to enter into "measured and polite" conversation about their beliefs because of some perceived threat.

I will and do talk to anyone about what I believe but certainly not in a way intended to change their views or faith, more to explain mine.

Ken

Precisely! I *enjoy* intelligent and lively discourse regarding theology. I *love* to discuss it, but *refuse* to fight about it! :D

--------
Hannibal

[snuffaluff]

[quote="Texas guy"]....edkruger, I don't want to give the impression that business is wrong and the church is greedy. I'm pro-business, I have a degree in finance]
Churches themselves are a business in a sense. They must pay bills and mortgage so they need to make money. They are funded by the people that attend and it is up to the pastor or whomever to handle the money correctly. Unfortunately, I think that a lot of churches mis-use money and make great gains that do nothing but make the pastor a rich man. It is sad to me, but the way it is.

Faith is something we all have, just some of us don't put our faith in God. You have faith in science. You have faith in emotions like Love. And you don't KNOW if someone has been taught directly from God or not. How could you know that? The bible tells us we know his voice. John 10:27 "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me."

[snuffaluff]

...Sent a nice email yesterday at work to get the xmas carols shut off and it offended the bible thumper in the office (that works days and doesn't have to put up with it in her office if she doesn't want to). Gave a quick 4-5 line history on christianity vs paegans, and said I can get cruder and more detailed if need be.

There is no less forced christianity now than there was during the spanish inquisition and the dark ages. Only real difference is that they can't kill us now.

why would you do that? Send an email just to have music turned off? Or did they change it to something else? If so, what? You see, christians don't force their beliefs on people(aren't supposed to anyways). Why do people force their beliefs on us? We don't want to see half dressed women on every commercial and billboard. We don't want to listen to the music w/ all the cursing and talk of sex drugs and rock and roll. In fact, it makes me sick inside. Ok, now that I'm thinking about it, I might send an email too if it were something I really detested like rap or something. But what about things like Mt. Soledad, the memorial in Cali. w/ a cross. One person made a hub-bub about it, and now it's all tied up in court. Does a cross really offend someone that much? I'm offended that scientologist use it in there symbol, but I'm not going to try to make them stop using it.

[snuffaluff]

...I feel that I am reasonably intelligent and have done extensive reading and research into most of the major faiths, so my conclusion is an “educated” and considered one. When I ask people why they believe what they do and I get a reply of, “I just do”, I know the conversation isn’t going to go any further. That is not the case with me.

***"I just do" is a faith based statement. Don't get me wrong, when someone asks why I believe, that's not the typical answer I give. These conversations can last all night(like this one). But, I just do is an answer none the less. Kinda like maybe... hahahaha

I have a scientific approach]


***Actually, this isn't true at all. Check this out.***
It is important to understand that the Author of the Torah is one and the same as the Creator of the Universe. Therefore, there cannot be a contradiction between Torah and science. Either there is ignorance or misunderstanding of what the Torah says or possibly the conclusion of science is wrong. Here is one answer to the question:

The Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 97a, which was redacted approximately 1,500 years ago states, "The world will exist for six thousand years and in the seven-thousandth year, it will be destroyed." An important Kabbalistic work, the Sefer HaTemunah, written in the first century, writes that there were 6 cycles of 7,000 years each which preceded our present cycle of creation. This would explain the finding of ancient fossils of the dinosaurs.

But what about the age of the earth? Rabbi Isaac of Akko who lived between 1250-1350 C.E., wrote in Ozar HaHayyim, since 6 cycles existed before the creation of Adam, their chronology must be measured in "Divine years," not in "human years." How do we measure a "Divine year"? According to Psalm 90:4, there is a hint at the manner of measuring a Divine year: "For a thousand years in Your sight are as a day."

Therefore, according to Rabbi Isaac, the universe would be 42,000 divine years (i.e.. the six preceding cycles of 7,000 year each) x 365,250 human years (365.25 days in a year, with each divine day =1,000 "human years"). This equals 15,340,500,000. Modern science has concluded from calculations based on the expanding universe and cosmological observations, that the universe is 15 billion years old. Here we see the same calculation from a Torah source written over 700 years ago!

(based on Immortality, Resurrection, & the Age of the Universe:
A Kabbalistic View by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan)

....Douglas Adams made this speech shortly before his death:

“Religion…..has certain ideas at the heart of it which we call sacred or holy or whatever. What it means is, “here is an idea or a notion that you are not allowed to say anything bad about]
Aren't we having a discussion right here between multiple people without stepping on toes and blowing up at one another? Makes that quote moot.

[JD Spydo]

Texas Guy I want to first say right off the bat that the few times we have communicated and exchanged ideas here on the Forum that not only do we seem to have similar tastes in knives but I've always seen you as an honest, up-front type of a guy. And for that reason I have a lot of respect for you Sir. I am a Christian myself but believe me I have had my clashes with organized religion and it appalls me why they stand by and remain silent. I searched for the truth for many years before I got a clear picture. The church in this country has been compromised to the point of just being part of the problem and no longer is truth seeking or helping the down and out.

Personally I can see why you have concluded some of the things you have. You made mention that the Churches in this country (USA) are structured like a "for profit" business. Since the churches by and large in my opinion have compromised their stand, their position and their calling by going to register themselves as "501c3", "not for profit" organizations they have virtually become castrated to a large degree in the overall scheme of things. They voluntarily gave up their rights to be a voice and a guiding light and to a large degree have become another arm of the government. When I see churches back this illegal war we are engaged in and condone our loss of liberties and do nothing or say nothing about atrocities that is being done to people daily it is no doubt in my mind as to which side a lot of them have chosen. When I see churches back and support obviously corrupt political candidates and condone the atrocities that the commit it just seems to me that they have even gone as far as prosituted the position that they once held in this great nation.

By the churches taking the "501c3" tax exempt status that they didn't have to take by way; they have slowly receded into a compromising, "MONKEY SEE, MONKEY DO" lap dog for this completely corrupt system. The churches under the Constitution were originally protected from government tyranny and I hold them greatly accountable for compromising with this monster. A lot of the Pastors, Priests, Rabbis and other church leadership seem to be more concerned with their retirement, financial status, tax status and whether or not they are forced to pay certain taxes than they are being the religious leaders and wise counselors that GOD called them to be.

Back when our founding fathers helped give birth to this great country the church then truly was regarded as a "moral compass" for our nation as a whole. Now 98% of the Churches have the "GO ALONG TO GET ALONG" attitude instead of taking courageous stands against tyranny and corruption like they once upon a time did. I have had my faith be plagued with doubt and despair but when you see the real picture you will clearly see that what modern churches have evolved into is not GOD's doing, but the leadership of the Churches have taken a path of little resistance and have cowed into submission. And the fact that you don't see the churches in a state of complete outrage at what is going on not only in our political system but in our society as a whole indicates to me that you are right about the "BUSINESS" aspect of it.

I can tell you this much. If I was down and out living out of my truck or living under a bridge; a 501c3 church would be the last place I would go for help. If you want to find out whether or not we have religious freedom in this country any longer>> then get a group of believers and try to start a Church which is not 501c3. Believe me it wouldn't take long for the "Powers that be" to be on your doorstep ( Check out the Indianapolis Baptist Temple on Google). I believe in GOD>> but I don't believe in a government controlled version or a corporately structured version either. Yes I do understand your position. But please don't discard GOD because of man's corruption and misguidance. They only counterfeit what is real my friend. :)

[Gerard Breuker]

I am amazed by the number of people of different faiths who are not prepared to enter into "measured and polite" conversation about their beliefs because of some perceived threat.

However measured and polite the conversation discussing what you belief is far more personal than many other conversations. Faith defines a person on a very personal level and discussing and in some way challenging someones faith can easily become threatening to that persons identity. Even more so as there are no facts and few arguments.
In general I find questioning the beliefs of others is easily perceived as a threat be it religious, political, medical etc. Someone who believes in something for which there is no real scientific evidence has taken a stand he or she is comfortable with and defines him or her as such. Changing that belief would mean reconsidering a lot of found answers and perceived solutions that form a part of your identity. No fun at all.
I always find it surprising how many people that do not believe in God go out of their way to find a faith or belief that is even more questionable from a rational viewpoint.

[UK KEN]

[quote="snuffaluff

***Actually, this isn't true at all. Check this out.***
It is important to understand that the Author of the Torah is one and the same as the Creator of the Universe. Therefore, there cannot be a contradiction between Torah and science. Either there is ignorance or misunderstanding of what the Torah says or possibly the conclusion of science is wrong. Here is one answer to the question:

The Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 97a, which was redacted approximately 1,500 years ago states, "The world will exist for six thousand years and in the seven-thousandth year, it will be destroyed." An important Kabbalistic work, the Sefer HaTemunah, written in the first century, writes that there were 6 cycles of 7,000 years each which preceded our present cycle of creation. This would explain the finding of ancient fossils of the dinosaurs.

But what about the age of the earth? Rabbi Isaac of Akko who lived between 1250-1350 C.E., wrote in Ozar HaHayyim, since 6 cycles existed before the creation of Adam, their chronology must be measured in "Divine years," not in "human years." How do we measure a "Divine year"? According to Psalm 90:4, there is a hint at the manner of measuring a Divine year: "For a thousand years in Your sight are as a day."

Therefore, according to Rabbi Isaac, the universe would be 42,000 divine years (i.e.. the six preceding cycles of 7,000 year each) x 365,250 human years (365.25 days in a year, with each divine day =1,000 "human years"). This equals 15,340,500,000. Modern science has concluded from calculations based on the expanding universe and cosmological observations, that the universe is 15 billion years old. Here we see the same calculation from a Torah source written over 700 years ago!

(based on Immortality, Resurrection, & the Age of the Universe:
A Kabbalistic View by Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan)

Where there's a will there's a way! :)


Aren't we having a discussion right here between multiple people without stepping on toes and blowing up at one another? Makes that quote moot.
[/QUOTE"]

Here maybe, but this isn't the real world, is it.

Regards, Ken

[Axlis]

I'm not going to try to argue my faith, but I will share my personal thoughts, taken from my first blog.

Howdy all!!!

I've been putting this off for some time, but here it is...MY FIRST BLOG ENTRY!!!

The first thing most of you who have known me all my life will notice is that I am a Christian. Then you will ask yourself "Is he for real? Yale, a Christian!?!?" The answer is most assuredly, yes. But it has been a long road for me, which some of you can testify too. I have been many things in my life, and at some point I was a proclaimed atheist, believing that there could not possibly be a God, and certainly not a Christ with all the bad stuff that is allowed to go on. Then I came to realize how shallow an atheist really is, so I took the more intellectual approach of claiming agnosticism.
(Taken from Wikitionary.com)
Etymology

a- gnostic -ism
[edit]

Noun

agnosticism

Singular
agnosticism




1. The view that the existence of any god is unknown at present.
2. The view that any god's existence is unknowable.
3. The view that theism is incoherent (see ignosticism.)

[edit]

Translations

"The belief that knowledge of any gods is unknowable at present "

Agnosticism seemed to be the ultimate middle ground, kinda of a cure-all for theological reasonings that get in the way of how we all would like to live. "Maybe God exists, maybe he doesn't, but who cares! We can't prove it scientifically, all we know is what we see."

But I eventually figured out that this view could only get you so far. One question that keep popping up is "Why?" Lots of why questions in the roots of faith. Why were we created? Why does everything in nature work in such perfect harmony? Why do we have instinctive moral standards that we would like to live by? Why is the world so beautiful, but at the same time so cold and ugly? For the first tme in my life I had began to yearn for something spiritual. Something more, something that made sense. Sometime during a dark period of my life, I began to read the Bible. I can't recall what exactly made me pick it up, but I am forever grateful that I did. The things I were reading were strange at first, I didn't even know what the gospels were. After a few nights of reading, I did something I had never done before. I prayed. I prayed for forgiveness. I prayed for Jesus Christ to come into my heart and change me. I prayed for the Lord to set me on a better path. I haven't stopped praying or believing ever since.

Some of you may not believe all of this, but it is so true. You may ask "Why Christianity? Why not Buddhism, or Islam, couldn't they be right, and aren't they just as spritual? This is where faith and study steps in. Christianity just feels right in my soul, and the fullfilled prophecy in scriptures backs up what many religions don't have, which is a messiah. An atonement for all of mankinds sins.

Anyone who has questions or just wants to talk, feel free to send me a message! I try to grow in faith daily, but even as believing Christians, there are times when this world can get us down and faith can be lost. But there is always someone there to pick us up again, none of us are perfect. If we were perfect, we would not have had Jesus Christ to die for our sins.

God Bless You All!!!

[TazKristi]

I have to admit, I was concerned when I saw this thread go up yesterday.

Today, all I can say is, thank you.

Thank you to you all. Very impressive.

Kristi

[lerman]

i used to discuss religion lots in zambia, where EVERYONE EVERYWHERE is somehow a christian, and if you aren't, you are a "witch" or "satanist" and generally persecuted as such, which frequently involves being chased from your community and/or killed in various creative/cruel ways. this is what people were frightened into believing years ago.

where i lived, the only white people many villagers had heard of were missionaries, or else jesus. (in fact, some people thought that because my skin was white, i had to be jesus...). i was completely honest, and told everyone i was an atheist... which realllllllly confused them severely. (and i think, gave a lot of people the strength to question things they were merely frightened into taking for granted...)

i believe christianity is as fine a belief as any other... i just don't believe in it, which is a personal choice i made after going to church for the first 17 years of my life. i respect everyone else's beliefs very much, provided they are not used to justify bad things (like chasing people from their villages and/or killing them), and i would hope people would reciprocate by respecting my own beliefs.

i would never tell anyone else what to think, and i don't think that everyone needs to think exactly the same thing. unfortunately, many christians i've encountered (especially in zambia) seem to feel very differently, which i find unpleasant and sometimes downright offensive. but then, some christians are some of the most tolerant people i've ever met, including towards me and my views... which kinda confuses me (because aren't christians supposed to believe everyone should be one or else be crushed or punished in one way or another?), but is quite nice!

i try to live a life that makes me feel i am somehow good, useful, and principled in a productive way, and i don't really give primacy to sensual pleasures. i believe a god who would, in spite of my efforts, "smite" me just for not walking around declaring "i am a THIS" or "i am a THAT" wouldn't be worthy of my worship anyway.

anyway, in summary -- religion or no religion, as long as you're a good person, we can be friends.

:)

i agree with every word you sayd clovisc, i respect all beliefs as long as they are not forcing others.
i'm sure thet all of the religious people on this forum have ONLY good intentions, but not all are like thet, i was born as a jewish, but i'm an atheist, and for thet when i was younger i gat beaten by other kids, i can't understend this kind of people, if a man and his beliefs are not hurting anyone in anyway, i don't see why it should bother anyone.
even if a belief of a man is "stuped" by others if it helps him be a better man then it's the right way, and a way thet is good for one may not be good for others.


P.S
i'm really happy to see haw well this problematic topic is discussed in here.

[jaislandboy]

I was born in Jamaica (below Cuba) of all places.....I was raised as a Roman Catholic (b/c my maternal grandmother was "converted" to Catholicism from Buddhism probably back in the 1950's or so....? In college, I took several religious courses trying to rationalize why I should remain a Roman Catholic or otherwise......then I asked myself one simple question: if i was born in India as a Hindu (or if I was born in a country where Roman Catholicism wasn't the predominant religion) ....does that mean that I have more "privileges" to Heaven than that person who was born into Hinduism? I think not..... Does that mean that Hindus are immoral human beings?....I think not....
Being that there are so many religions (in the world), why is my Roman Catholic background the Only "correct" religion as my mom/grandma raised me to be....
It didn't make logical sense, as Mr. Spock would say...."it is Illogical"....
Sounds corny, but there are good and bad things in everything (including any particular religion) and I choose to glean just the good stuff (to live my life by) from any religion......kinda like a Jeet Kune Do philosophy applied to religion.... :rolleyes:

to JDSpydo: very few could have stated what you just posted any better....you are wise my friend...

[Chucula]

[quote="Hannibal Lecter"]
IMO one's faith *should* be discussed, and I enjoy discussion of it so long as things remain measured and polite. After all, frank and open discussion is a wonderful way to acid-test your own faith]
This is why religion is so volatile. Most people don't want to be told they are wrong, or come to the conclusion on their own. Many religions teach people how to live so that they are rewarded in the after life (heaven, reincarnation, etc). If they spent half their life trying to get rewarded, they don't want to be told it was for nothing.

I am Jewish and I like Judaism because the emphasis is on life, not on death. One of my favorite examples is this: If a newly married couple and their guests meet at an intersection with a funeral procession, who should be allowed to go ahead? Most religions would say the funeral, because it is respect for the dead. From the Jewish perspective, the living should be allowed to go first because life is so precious. This is one of the fundamental ideas of Judaism that separates it from other religions: life is more precious than anything.

[snuffaluff]

JD Spydo, I was thinking that. lol Really, I just couldn't have said it better, and I totally agree with you. there are some great churches out there even though they are 503 or w/e it is. You put it plain and simple...

UK Ken, This is the real world m8. I'm talking to you, and you are talking to me. I am awake and not doing drugs. I assume the same from you, so how is this not the real world?

Gerard Breuker, you also said it right. Couldn't agree more.

Taz, I am always worried about this subject getting out of hand, but I knew that the people on this forum would handle it well. I also knew that you were paying attention and would shut this baby down quicker than water off a ducks back if it got out of hand.

This is truely one of the most heated debates in the world(at least it could get there quickly) and as usual, the folks here on these forums have handled themselves great. I'm glad to have a discussion like this w/o it getting out of hand, cause I've seen it get blown up real quick, especially on the net w/ 20 different people posting.

[spydutch]

I was raised in a somewhat Christian way.
Both my Mom and grandma were heavily paticipated in the savation army.

So I had to go to sunday school and such and because of my mom and grandma I sort of started to believe as well.

That is until my grandma died. I couldn't believe that the was a God who would take my beloved Granny away.

By the time I was about 12, I started to see "the light" and swore believing off after seeing the wrong people staying alive and the good people pass away.

From that age on I haven't believed in anything and I'm sure I never will.

All the respect to all who have a strong believe though.

[UK KEN]

UK Ken, This is the real world m8. I'm talking to you, and you are talking to me. I am awake and not doing drugs. I assume the same from you, so how is this not the real world?

Respectfully, this is not the real world and I don’t need to take drugs or be asleep to imagine that it is. We are in Sal's house here and most of us act accordingly most of the time. A shared interest has brought us together here and I count myself lucky to have some true friends here.

In the “bricks and mortar” world, what I consider to be the real world, what we say and do has a real impact on those around us whereas here differing opinions, can be forgotten with the click of a mouse. We are disconnected we have no physical presence and no body language to aid our communications. The chances are we will never meet or even know one another for who we really are. That said, our remarks generally are better considered here and we have the luxury of the delete button which in face to face contact isn't available.

I don’t believe with the diversity of beliefs exhibited here the debate would have been as well controlled in the real world.

So, sorry m8 this is not a true representation of my real world. :)

Ken

[SunTzu]

I believe in God. I do not believe in the bible. I think parts of it are probably true while others are fictional, same as the koran or the torrah, etc... What it all boils down to is what you believe in, wheather it be God or nothing at all, everyone needs somthing. Aurguments about religion have helped to destroy my family. My sister will not talk to my mother( sis claims to be a "good christian") and my father is pretty much an athiest, yet he is one of the best people I have ever met in terms of honesty and integrety etc... Religion is quite an unusual thing to argue about considering almost everyone you ask about it will remain stedfast in their beliefs untill the day they die. Why cant we all learn to simply accept the diferences of other people? I am not Catholic or Jewish or Muslim but I do find many aspects of their religions quite interesting. And I celbrate Christmas, not as the birthday of Christ but as a time that I get to spend with my family. Thats what realy matters here folks, your family and your friends. Lifes to short to spend your time arguing about religion or politics, just enjoy it. I'll pray for you all, for you are my friends. And yes I pray... a man with no religion, just a belief in somthing more than me, somthing that helps me draw upon my own strength in time of need. I think everyone need somthing. My father once said-"If you dont want to worship God or anything like that, you should have somthing... ****, bugs bunny sounds good. As long as you got somthing." And so the church of bugs bunny was born... :D Take care everyone.

SunTzu

[Texas guy]

Being a topic that has sparked genocide and wars through out history I undersood how sensitive this thread would be. I actually thought it over for a week or so before I even posted it, but I am glad we have come together here for knowledges sake. The reason religion and faith is such a topic with me is because of the personal dicotomy I described earlier; between my upbringing and my current beliefs. I was raised on christian beliefs, and was one of the kids who actually went to church. Even though I am 100% atheist now the influence that christianity has made on my life is undeniable. The name Jesus still stirs a swirl of thought in my head being something that I remember hearing from my youngest childhood. The way we are raised affects everything about our adult lives, so even though I am now atheist I have strong christian roots that force me to regard my fellow man who still holds this belief with respect.

JD Spydo, I have always appreciated your input on these forums, thanks for tuning in to this thread :spyder:

I respect the christian who reads his bible and actually knows what he believes in. It is the person who is willing to claim an affiliation with religion without any thought to it, or understanding of it, that annoys me. Not because of the religion, but because people need to choose carefully what their associations are. I am equally annoyed when somebody says something like "I vote Democrat because my parents were Democrats." It is these people who are "sheeple" and follow blindly those who lead them. This world has too many followers, and I know JD Spydo is yellin' "AMEN!" to that one
I would just like to see more of the super-casual christians actually do the work and study, put some effort into what they claim they believe in. Same goes for political opinions, do some reseach, study, form your very own opinion. If I was a christian, I would consider many of them "posers" and would encourage them to stop claiming something they are not and do some study.

Once again; to the Christians who hold their beliefs because they have actually done the investigation and study (like some of you here seem to be) then I regard you with respect.

Everybody should question everything. Question your government, question your science, question your faith. Be in control of you destiny and beliefs.

On a side note, are there any members who where born one religion and converted to another? Like Christian to Jewish? Or Jewish to Buddhist? Or maybe christian to Hindu?

[vampyrewolf]

why would you do that? Send an email just to have music turned off? Or did they change it to something else? If so, what? You see, christians don't force their beliefs on people(aren't supposed to anyways). Why do people force their beliefs on us? We don't want to see half dressed women on every commercial and billboard. We don't want to listen to the music w/ all the cursing and talk of sex drugs and rock and roll. In fact, it makes me sick inside. Ok, now that I'm thinking about it, I might send an email too if it were something I really detested like rap or something. But what about things like Mt. Soledad, the memorial in Cali. w/ a cross. One person made a hub-bub about it, and now it's all tied up in court. Does a cross really offend someone that much? I'm offended that scientologist use it in there symbol, but I'm not going to try to make them stop using it.

You are aware of the crusades? How many wars have been propigated by the catholic church (either of Britian or the Roman Empire) to either convert the masses to thier beliefs or eliminate them? How much blood has been spilled in the persuit of 'peace'?

The music at work was changed to an instrumental set rather than vocal. Simply as a work of art, I can appreciate well played music. I don't need to hear about events that may or may not have happened and people who may or may not have existed. Just like I have a couple of celtic crosses, simply for the artwork (have a really nice stone one by my TV).

Before anyone decides to simply go with the christian view on Paegans being "barbarians" and "sinners"... The basis of it is one of respect for life & nature. For centuries we have lived in harmony, with very little conflict in the name of our chosen deity. Are you calling Buddhism the same, when the basis is the same?

[Gerard Breuker]

I don’t believe with the diversity of beliefs exhibited here the debate would have been as well controlled in the real world.

Considering our mutual hobby I would prefer buying everyone another beer, lemonade, carrot juice or whatever. Unless we decide the last (wo)man standing has the true faith of course then it would become nasty.