Military 2 Discussion (Merged)

[Wartstein]

i think i would really like a framelock military with 15v or magnacut and a g10 or micarta scale. i wasn't interested in s90v/cf, but i really like that military configuration.

Did you check out BBB's Military 2 video from Shot Show?
https://youtu.be/XABs6_LR8GI

Thanks!

And man, is this thing a Para 4 / (PM2 XL)... (though, it actually still seems to have a more negative "millie-ish" blade angle than the PM2, which is good to see!)

[Wartstein]

Added to my post above:

Millie 2 obviously (?) still having the more negative, "millie-ish" blade angle (good thing imo!) - am I seeing this right? (Screenshot from this https://youtu.be/XABs6_LR8GI vid)

[kennethsime]

Carrying my Military today, because this thread has been on my mind.

Still can’t wait for the Millie 2.

[salimoneus]

Liner locks were just fine decades ago, but nowadays there are much better designs both in strength and also operationally.

First of all, the liner lock forces you to put your thumb directly in the cutting path of the closing blade. Not a good thing.

Secondly, the liner lock suffers from a greater degree of contact creep, where the contact point continuously moves farther across the butt of the blade stock, eventually wearing out enough that the liner spring is fully sprung to the very edge of the butt of the blade, which significantly weakens the mechanism and then starts to put lateral forces on the opposite side liner/scale material as well as the pivot binding/screws. The comp lock avoids this to a greater degree because of the differences in the geometry of those interfaces.

Thirdly, the liner lock interface itself isn't even really a lock, it's just two flat surfaces making contact. You're counting on the integrity of those two pieces holding their flatness and position to ensure neither is allowed to move. Where as the comp lock is actually interlocking two pieces of steel together.

I for one will not shed any tears to see liner locks disappear completely.

[JSumm]

Oh but it feels so glorious to close that bad boy as it is moving to your pocket. Like a smooth effortless motion closed and back into the pocket. Well, you got to swing it a bit to go tip down. Tip up would be a little more smooth effortless motion. And that sharp angle cut into the tang on the Military, man it would take 200 years of fidgeting to wear that down.

[amateur blacksmith]

Liner locks were just fine decades ago, but nowadays there are much better designs both in strength and also operationally.

First of all, the liner lock forces you to put your thumb directly in the cutting path of the closing blade. Not a good thing.

Secondly, the liner lock suffers from a greater degree of contact creep, where the contact point continuously moves farther across the butt of the blade stock, eventually wearing out enough that the liner spring is fully sprung to the very edge of the butt of the blade, which significantly weakens the mechanism and then starts to put lateral forces on the opposite side liner/scale material as well as the pivot binding/screws. The comp lock avoids this to a greater degree because of the differences in the geometry of those interfaces.

Thirdly, the liner lock interface itself isn't even really a lock, it's just two flat surfaces making contact. You're counting on the integrity of those two pieces holding their flatness and position to ensure neither is allowed to move. Where as the comp lock is actually interlocking two pieces of steel together.

I for one will not shed any tears to see liner locks disappear completely.



Totally disagree on all points.

Closing the Military is completely safe The finger choil is the part of the blade that contacts your thumb on closing. There's very little chance of a mishap closing the knife.

Short of doing something crazy like hammering on it to split wood, the military the lock is plenty strong enough for anything you would reasonably ask of it.

Some modern locks (CBBL, Axis lock, Compression lock) are inferior when wearing gloves.

A well executed liner lock was good back in the day and remains so today.

[Doc Dan]

I for one will not shed any tears to see liner locks disappear completely.

It wouldn't break my heart, either.

[matt009au]

... I will say I will miss the linerlock. The Military linerlock may just be my favorite lock. So convenient and your hand is already where it needs to be to close. No shifting of the grip really. It is so well executed with a tight lock up.
...

Well said.

I wonder if people will miss and only start to really appreciate the advantages of a good Spydie linerlock when the M1 will perhaps be gone eventually

I also sometimes wonder how it would be if there was no linerlock at all and Spyderco invented that locktype right now for the Millie. Could imagine that some then would see it differently and actually praise the simplicity, convenience and overall safety in use of this new lock type. Don't know.

If you search far enough back in my posts here, I posted about the idea of modifying a Military down into Para 2 size because back then I didn't feel comfortable with the size of the Military (it was also illegal for me at the time) and I didn't "get" the compression lock. Funny how things change.

And there are always people who discover models too late. There are a bunch of those models.... Captain, Ulize, Vesuvius, seems like lately a lot of people have been discovering the Goddard models.

And just for the record, or for a reminder, I'm one of the M1 loyalists...I may just be more accepting of what I think is to come. I hope I'm wrong, and they both stay in the lineup together and I would really love to see the M1 get at least a few more steel sprints.

My general feeling here is that the M2 is losing something that made the M1 special and I don't think it's necessarily just the lock change for me. The M1 is one of the last holdouts of the old Spyderco design along with the Police 1 and Harpy, that a person can still buy and see a little bit of how the company used to do things.

Hear hear! I also will miss the old school Millie liner lock. Glad I’m not alone in wishing for a paramilitary sized version as well...

[vandelay]

Liner locks were just fine decades ago, but nowadays there are much better designs both in strength and also operationally.

First of all, the liner lock forces you to put your thumb directly in the cutting path of the closing blade. Not a good thing.

That's a bit of a meme. Yeah there are some designs where your thumb would get cut if you just closed the knife with it in the way, but there are plenty where something blunt will hit your thumb upon closing. Just about every flipper does this, as does the military.

I find the operation of a well designed liner lock to feel the safest. It's probably mostly down to having used them for a long time, but everything else has some flaw that makes it feel a little unsafe.

Secondly, the liner lock suffers from a greater degree of contact creep, where the contact point continuously moves farther across the butt of the blade stock, eventually wearing out enough that the liner spring is fully sprung to the very edge of the butt of the blade, which significantly weakens the mechanism and then starts to put lateral forces on the opposite side liner/scale material as well as the pivot binding/screws. The comp lock avoids this to a greater degree because of the differences in the geometry of those interfaces.

Is this an actual problem that's seen in the real world? My decade old CRKT liner lock that I used to flip all the time doesn't show much wear on the locking interface.

Their tolerances are pretty tight which makes them more sensitive to wear in general. I'm skeptical that this is a significant issue in practice though.

Thirdly, the liner lock interface itself isn't even really a lock, it's just two flat surfaces making contact. You're counting on the integrity of those two pieces holding their flatness and position to ensure neither is allowed to move. Where as the comp lock is actually interlocking two pieces of steel together.

This just seems like a really roundabout way of saying that liner locks are weak. Both locks rely on spring pressure to keep the lock bar in the right place. The comp lock is certainly stronger but can you actually get a military to fail in realistic conditions?

I for one will not shed any tears to see liner locks disappear completely.

If they made comp locks with liner lock ergonomics, I wouldn't mind seeing liner locks disappear.

[Mushroom]

Totally disagree on all points.

Closing the Military is completely safe The finger choil is the part of the blade that contacts your thumb on closing. There's very little chance of a mishap closing the knife.

Short of doing something crazy like hammering on it to split wood, the military the lock is plenty strong enough for anything you would reasonably ask of it.

Some modern locks (CBBL, Axis lock, Compression lock) are inferior when wearing gloves.

A well executed liner lock was good back in the day and remains so today.

Liner locks can be operated safely, yes, but the chance of mishap while closing the knife is inarguably higher when your thumb is in the path of the blade. I understand some knives have a choil or kick that contacts your thumb first but thats still not removing your thumb from the path of the blade. The chance of an accident happening is higher with your thumb in the path of the blade than without your thumb there; choil or not.

I agree, the liner lock is plenty strong enough for any reasonable task but the compression lock is stronger. Whether or not that matters is up to the buyer.

If it’s a matter of liner locks in general, they are not necessarily superior when wearing gloves. The Military Model provides good access to the lock tab with gloves because the lock tab cutout is huge but that’s not true for all liner locks.

Lastly, I agree that liner are good knife locks but so are compression locks. All good, just different.

[Brock O Lee]

There is nothing wrong with a well-designed liner lock in my view. The Military is one of them, and so is the Sage 1, to name but a few. I have no concerns about their strength or durability. Both are more than sufficient for what I use a knife for.

In terms of safety, I have no worries if the knife has a choil. Previous posters highlighted this before me. The kick of the choil of the Military and Sage 1 lands very predictably on the thumb nail when you close it. I like that a lot and find it very safe to use. It's a tactile reminder of where the sharp edge is while closing without having to look at the knife.

On the other hand, I have a few liner locks without a choil. They will bite you if you don't pay attention and drop it on your thumb. The Nilakka comes to mind...

[vandelay]

Some modern locks (CBBL, Axis lock, Compression lock) are inferior when wearing gloves.

I find CBBL easier to operate when I'm wearing gloves because then I've got extra grip. When my hands are sweaty, it feels like the knife's going to slip from my palm sometimes.

I think I find axis locks most comfortable in terms of ergonomics (they don't have the sweaty palm issue). There are more considerations than purely ergonomics though, so I tend toward CBBL, back locks and liner locks.

On the other hand, I have a few liner locks without a choil. They will bite you if you don't pay attention. The Nilakka comes to mind...

I went back and looked at the old CRKT flipper I used for a decade. The flipper tab doesn't actually hit your finger when you close it, so it was totally unsafe. Never really crossed my mind when I used to use it. It's not drop shut or anything.

...

Liner locks can be operated safely, yes, but the chance of mishap while closing the knife is inarguably higher when your thumb is in the path of the blade. I understand some knives have a choil or kick that contacts your thumb first but thats still not removing your thumb from the path of the blade. The chance of an accident happening is higher with your thumb in the path of the blade than without your thumb there; choil or not.

I don't see a situation where this is actually a real risk. When I close my good flipper, I depress the lock bar while pushing the blade, it close to the point where the flipper tab hits my thumb, then I move my thumb to the side and close it fully. I can only move my thumb to the side, so I don't see the possible mechanism for injury.

I don't think this 'fingers in the blade path' thing is as big of a deal as people make it. I cut myself once closing a dragonfly because I moved my fingers out of the blade path improperly. I also cut myself once closing my para 3 because my finger slipped into the blade path due to the contorted grip that comp locks require. I wouldn't be surprised if I eventually nick myself on a CBBL eventually too.

I'll also add that closing a comp lock left handed/gloved is done the same way as a back lock, so you get the fingers in the blade path issue there too.

If it’s a matter of liner locks in general, they are not necessarily superior when wearing gloves. The Military Model provides good access to the lock tab with gloves because the lock tab cutout is huge but that’s not true for all liner locks.

The issue with gloves on a comp lock is requiring access to the finger tip. Liners are closed by dragging the thumb over them, so it's easy even on knives without a lock cutout.

[Mushroom]

...

Liner locks can be operated safely, yes, but the chance of mishap while closing the knife is inarguably higher when your thumb is in the path of the blade. I understand some knives have a choil or kick that contacts your thumb first but thats still not removing your thumb from the path of the blade. The chance of an accident happening is higher with your thumb in the path of the blade than without your thumb there; choil or not.

I don't see a situation where this is actually a real risk. When I close my good flipper, I depress the lock bar while pushing the blade, it close to the point where the flipper tab hits my thumb, then I move my thumb to the side and close it fully. I can only move my thumb to the side, so I don't see the possible mechanism for injury.

I don't think this 'fingers in the blade path' thing is as big of a deal as people make it. I cut myself once closing a dragonfly because I moved my fingers out of the blade path improperly. I also cut myself once closing my para 3 because my finger slipped into the blade path due to the contorted grip that comp locks require. I wouldn't be surprised if I eventually nick myself on a CBBL eventually too.

I'll also add that closing a comp lock left handed/gloved is done the same way as a back lock, so you get the fingers in the blade path issue there too.

If it’s a matter of liner locks in general, they are not necessarily superior when wearing gloves. The Military Model provides good access to the lock tab with gloves because the lock tab cutout is huge but that’s not true for all liner locks.

The issue with gloves on a comp lock is requiring access to the finger tip. Liners are closed by dragging the thumb over them, so it's easy even on knives without a lock cutout.

Whether or not you can personally see a situation where it happens is irrelevant. The fact is, the chance of an accidental cut is higher when your finger is in the path of the blade than when it’s not.

That’s unfortunate for you that you can only move your thumb to the side while operating a liner lock but lifting it up into the actual edge is a real possibility for people with more range of mobility in their hands than yourself.

I don’t think people are making a big deal out of it either. I think more people are just acknowledging it. (Oddly enough it’s the people that disagree with it that tend to make the most out of it)

As you’ve noted through first hand experience, lock type is irrelevant too, accidents can happen no matter what. Regardless of lock type, your fingers in the blade path is a safety hazard. The compression lock offers the advantage over liner locks of not requiring that action.

Compression locks do not require a contorted grip to operate, that’s purely subjective. I am more than capable of operating compression locks comfortably and safely. Also, left handed operation does not require fingers in the blade path nor does gloved operation.

As we’ve established, not all knifes are created equally. I’m not exactly concerned with how you personally operate each lock but both compression locks and liner locks can be operated with gloves on. Some knives provide easier access to the lock tab than others. Some knives have extremely limited access to the lock tab and they would be flat out difficult to operate with gloves on. This applies to both lock types. Ultimately I’m not sure what your trying to get at with that last statement though. Seems like you’re just disagreeing with me for the sake of it at that point.

Anyway, I like both lock types and have nothing against either one.

[Cl1ff]

There’ve been several discussions about linerlock vs comp lock on the Military and it’s only become crystal clear that there is room for both, at least in the preferences and needs of those on the forum.

Edit: I shortened my comment.

[aicolainen]

I tend to agree with vandelay, not because mushroom is wrong necessarily. It's just that people are different, use stuff differently and has different needs and habits.
When I got my PM2, it was easier to operate with gloves than the liner locks I had at the time, so it's not bad. In time though, I've just found back locks to work best. No matter how cold, greasy or slippery my hand is, I can always operate it in a manner that is intuitive, predictable and safe.

Now, I didn't really want to add to this lock safety pissing contest, but all this chatter finally made me realize something and I wanted to add a little context to put my rationale in perspective. Currently I hardly have any liner locks at all and certainly nothing that comes even close to the unapologetic, no nonsense approach of the M1. With the coach fidgeters making up ever more of the knife market, it's not hard to see how this breed might go totally extinct. I'm not sure that in itself is a valid justification for me to get one, but it sure does add some weight on the scale.
When I became aware of the rumored DLC 4V SNK exclusive, that did actually seem like a good match for a M1 if I ever were to get one, but this discussion has got me to think otherwise. While 4V is probably a good match for a folder of this size, it's probably not for how I'm likely to use it.
So this got me thinking, and this tune is probably getting a little boring by now, but MagnaCut would be a really sweet option for the M1. So maybe Spyderco could/should honor this design and let it go out with a bang. That would surly smack me right down off that fence, and I would assume quite a few others as well.
Just a though. I'm sure no one else has thought of that :)

[Evil D]

Current phone wallpaper

I'll tell ya this much, if they make a SE MagnaCut combo I don't care which version of the Military gets it.

[vandelay]

Whether or not you can personally see a situation where it happens is irrelevant. The fact is, the chance of an accidental cut is higher when your finger is in the path of the blade than when it’s not.

If the design blocks the blade from hitting your thumb, you're not going to get cut closing it unless you take an extra step to move it into an unsafe portion of the blade path. You could always do that as a result of the knife slipping, but you can do that on any lock.

That’s unfortunate for you that you can only move your thumb to the side while operating a liner lock but lifting it up into the actual edge is a real possibility for people with more range of mobility in their hands than yourself.

I can't move my finger up because there's a flipper tab in the way.

When I cut myself on a dragonfly, it was one of the fingers that wasn't in contact with the choil, so I was able to move it up into the blade.

left handed operation does not require fingers in the blade path nor does gloved operation.

could you post tutorials on how to do this? I'd like the lock more if I knew how.

[Mushroom]

I tend to agree with vandelay, not because mushroom is wrong necessarily. It's just that people are different, use stuff differently and has different needs and habits.
When I got my PM2, it was easier to operate with gloves than the liner locks I had at the time, so it's not bad. In time though, I've just found back locks to work best. No matter how cold, greasy or slippery my hand is, I can always operate it in a manner that is intuitive, predictable and safe.

Now, I didn't really want to add to this lock safety pissing contest, but all this chatter finally made me realize something and I wanted to add a little context to put my rationale in perspective. Currently I hardly have any liner locks at all and certainly nothing that comes even close to the unapologetic, no nonsense approach of the M1. With the coach fidgeters making up ever more of the knife market, it's not hard to see how this breed might go totally extinct. I'm not sure that in itself is a valid justification for me to get one, but it sure does add some weight on the scale.
When I became aware of the rumored DLC 4V SNK exclusive, that did actually seem like a good match for a M1 if I ever were to get one, but this discussion has got me to think otherwise. While 4V is probably a good match for a folder of this size, it's probably not for how I'm likely to use it.
So this got me thinking, and this tune is probably getting a little boring by now, but MagnaCut would be a really sweet option for the M1. So maybe Spyderco could/should honor this design and let it go out with a bang. That would surly smack me right down off that fence, and I would assume quite a few others as well.
Just a though. I'm sure no one else has thought of that :)

Im not concerned about which lock is better with gloves on. I really couldn’t care less about that and it’s not a part of the point I was trying to make.

I agree with you - people are different, use stuff differently, and have different needs and habits but the one thing they all have in common is that they’re required to put their finger in the path of the blade to close a liner lock. Something that’s not required on a compression lock. (Of course using a foreign object is a possibility but to suggest that as a reliable alternative is just being contentious)

It’s not a contest either and there’s nothing to add. The simple fact is the compression lock provides a safer means of operation than the liner lock. I don’t believe it’s up for debate either. Until someone can logically and rationally explain to me how having your fingers in the path of the blade is objectively safer than not having them there, I’ll maintain that belief.

An analogy that I like to use is closing a knife is like walking from point A to point B. Path One is on a highly trafficked road without a sidewalk and Path Two is on a highly trafficked road with a sidewalk. It is possible to safely walk from Point A to Point B on either path but the risk of getting hit by a car is higher on Path One and Path Two offers a safer way to get there.

It’s similar to lock strength, it is up to the end line user to decide whether or not keeping their fingers out of the path of the blade matters to them but it’s still a risk that can’t be removed. (Although saying that gives me an idea for a liner lock concept that doesn’t require fingers in the blade path )

Whether or not you can personally see a situation where it happens is irrelevant. The fact is, the chance of an accidental cut is higher when your finger is in the path of the blade than when it’s not.

If the design blocks the blade from hitting your thumb, you're not going to get cut closing it unless you take an extra step to move it into an unsafe portion of the blade path. You could always do that as a result of the knife slipping, but you can do that on any lock.

That’s unfortunate for you that you can only move your thumb to the side while operating a liner lock but lifting it up into the actual edge is a real possibility for people with more range of mobility in their hands than yourself.

I can't move my finger up because there's a flipper tab in the way.

When I cut myself on a dragonfly, it was one of the fingers that wasn't in contact with the choil, so I was able to move it up into the blade.

left handed operation does not require fingers in the blade path nor does gloved operation.

could you post tutorials on how to do this? I'd like the lock more if I knew how.

Right - so if I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying “…you’re not going to get cut closing [a liner lock] unless [an accident happens.]” In that case, thank you for agreeing me with me because we’re right, there is a higher chance of an accident happening when you’re required to put your finger in a position where that’s possible!

Then - “When [you] cut [yourself] on a Dragonfly, it was one of the fingers that [was in the path of the blade.]” Yes, we’re on the same page, that’s what I’ve been saying is the safety hazard.

Lastly, to keep it brief, pinch the knife between your index and middle finger then actuate the lock with your thumb. If the blade doesn’t drop shut, use your index finger to push it closed.

[vandelay]

Right - so if I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying “…you’re not going to get cut closing [a liner lock] unless [an accident happens.]” In that case, thank you for agreeing me with me because we’re right, there is a higher chance of an accident happening when you’re required to put your finger in a position where that’s possible!

Yes, but I said the opposite of the highlighted part.

Then - “When [you] cut [yourself] on a Dragonfly, it was one of the fingers that [was in the path of the blade.]” Yes, we’re on the same page, that’s what I’ve been saying is the safety hazard.

It happened but the the danger from a back lock is different in 2 key ways: you have additional fingers which aren't blocked by the choil (in this case my middle finger), and you need to modify your grip significantly to close it.

Maybe images will help demonstrate this point (apologies for the poor quality).
After closing the lock, the tab hits my thumb and it can't close any further. I can't push my thumb into the blade accidentally because it would need to go around the tab entirely.

I just move my thumb out of the way and now I can close. If I didn't move my thumb far enough, the tab will hit it instead of shaving off the finger tip.

IMO the big risk with an unprotected liner lock is that the blade tends to jump forward when you release the lock. Combine that with a smooth action and that won't turn out well. That's kept me away from designs without a tab or choil.

Lastly, to keep it brief, pinch the knife between your index and middle finger then actuate the lock with your thumb. If the blade doesn’t drop shut, use your index finger to push it closed.

I could never manage to do that. If my thumb is on the tab, nothing's bracing that side of the knife so it rotates and slips out of my grip.

[Mushroom]

Right - so if I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying “…you’re not going to get cut closing [a liner lock] unless [an accident happens.]” In that case, thank you for agreeing me with me because we’re right, there is a higher chance of an accident happening when you’re required to put your finger in a position where that’s possible!

Yes, but I said the opposite of the highlighted part.

Oh my bad, then in that case you are incorrect.

Lastly, to keep it brief, pinch the knife between your index and middle finger then actuate the lock with your thumb. If the blade doesn’t drop shut, use your index finger to push it closed.

I could never manage to do that. If my thumb is on the tab, nothing's bracing that side of the knife so it rotates and slips out of my grip.

Well, that’s your own problem to overcome.