SE H2 beats PE Rex121 at edge retention??

[Wartstein]

You forgot to mention the VG-10 SE Endela!

Jim

No, I actually did not (how could I!! ) in my first recommendation-post ... and the Endela SE would still be my no 1 recommendation for trying SE, tied with the Chap SE

...But here Jefke said he'd try to decide just between Leaf Jumper , Delica and Chap...

[James Y]

You forgot to mention the VG-10 SE Endela!

Jim

No, I actually did not (how could I!! ) in my first recommendation-post ... and the Endela SE would still be my no 1 recommendation for trying SE, tied with the Chap SE

...But here Jefke said he'd try to decide just between Leaf Jumper , Delica and Chap...

Oh...oops! My bad!

Jim

[dsvirsky]

@James Y -- Get a Leafjumper, since that's the one that's been discontinued; the others will wait. I suggest the K390 version, since it has "better" (smaller, shallower) serrations. Which the K390 Police 4 also has, but interestingly enough, not the K390 Endela.

[James Y]

@James Y -- Get a Leafjumper, since that's the one that's been discontinued; the others will wait. I suggest the K390 version, since it has "better" (smaller, shallower) serrations. Which the K390 Police 4 also has, but interestingly enough, not the K390 Endela.

Yes, the shallower serrations are the way to go. Although I officially stopped buying all knives 3 years ago. There are a few models that could possibly tempt me back into buying a couple more, but for now, that would have to wait for some indeterminate future time.

Jim

[vivi]

I'll say the same thing I said in 2019 even though I pretty much never carry SE any more.

Sometimes you just have to get real world experience with something.

The way things compare on paper is not always the same as how they compare when actually being put to use.

Over the years I concluded H1 ground at a very thin edge angle and given a coarse apex is pretty much the best balance for me in terms of toughness, edge holding, corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening. I haven't found anything that strikes the same balance, though I have no tried magnacut or vanax yet. I have used LC200N a lot and while I like it quite a bit H1 seems more indestructible.

What my own senses show me when I use tools will always matter more to me than on paper comparisons others make without ever using the things being compared.

Curious...as someone who is contemplating getting more into SE knives, what were your thoughts regarding moving away from them? Thank you for any thoughts you have.

For me taking a plain edge thin and giving it a coarse apex has the same advantages (longer edge holding, grabs materials better so they don't slip off the blade) without the disadvantages (can snag on a lot of materials, requires more specialized sharpening equipment available in fewer grits, requires more of a slice when used against a cutting board etc.)

In my experience no matter how a SE has been sharpened or what type of serration pattern is used it's a lot more likely to snag during cuts than plain edge. Whether it's deep jagged serrations like a Kabar TDI, small shallow Victorinox paring knife serrations, or spyderedge. Any of these taken to a hair whittling sharp edge will snag on certain materials more than my PE blades.

Most the benefits of SE for my uses come from the edge geometry, which I can easily replicate on PE.

There's no real getting around the sharpening limitations. There are so many more options in terms of abrasive type, grit etc. for sharpening plain edged knives. I have a large toolbox full of sharpening stuff that only works on PE knives. Not to mention they need reprofiled by hand while any PE knife I can take to my belt sander to save me time.

Back when I ran polished edges on everything I fell in love with SE H1 for offering much better edge retention than PE H1. But when I discovered I could quadruple the edge holding of PE H1 simply by changing how I sharpen it, that benefit was lost on me.





YMMV but that's enough edge retention to satisfy me.

At the end of the day SE knives take more time and effort to get the edge where I want, while not offering me benefits over a thin, coarsely sharpened plain edged knife. If they did certain things much better I'd carry them but there's no significant reason I have found for my uses to carry them over PE.

[Jefke]

As for the Delica SE: I´d NOT go with the VG10 version, since it only comes in sabre grind and with rather aggressive serrations.
The ffg K390 Delicas serrations look really good though.

Yeah, I should have mentioned I was looking at the K390 Delica (and the K390 LeafJumper). I included the Delica because I think I'll be more likely to carry it because it should be smaller in the pocket than the LeafJumper.

My initial plan was to get a UKPK SE in LC200N or Magnacut (my main EDC is an S110V UKPK at the moment), but we don't know yet if these have "good" serrations and who knows how long we'll have to wait until they become available (the LC200N SE UKPK was announced in 2022).

[Wartstein]

Yeah, I should have mentioned I was looking at the K390 Delica (and the K390 LeafJumper). I included the Delica because I think I'll be more likely to carry it because it should be smaller in the pocket than the LeafJumper.

My initial plan was to get a UKPK SE in LC200N or Magnacut (my main EDC is an S110V UKPK at the moment), but we don't know yet if these have "good" serrations and who knows how long we'll have to wait until they become available (the LC200N SE UKPK was announced in 2022).

Concerning "good" serrations: I think this is still rather subjective.

There is @elena86 for example, who really knows his stuff and actually prefers the "old", rather aggressive, "spikey" kind of serrations (I seem to recall him saying that especially those just have to be sharpened very well and over the entire edge to show their full potential, but don´t quote me on that).

Apparently though many prefer that "shallow", "wavy", "non aggressive" serration type, me included - in my use (and I gather that´s true for many more) they just work better in regular EDC tasks, for me they are even the "better plain edge".

/ Just from looking at it on pics (!) the Seki K390 serrations seem to be of that type I prefer.

If you want to be certain to get the true SE experience based on what I can say from my limited experience AND want the knife to be small in pocket: I mean the Chap SE is an obvious choice, isn´t it?

It really highlights what serrations can do - so if you for whatever reason don´t like how the Chap SE performs, I´d say you can close the chapter SE for good, cause then it is just not for you.

I am sure though that you´d be blown away by just how crazy this thing cuts. Just be careful that it does not cut YOU, should you get one... (I may quote @twinboysdad "I have cut myself 4 times with the SE Chap, never with the PE. It’s uncanny" (viewtopic.php?p=1812028#p1812028)

Now, as said, if the goal is to experience the "better PE" feeling right out of the box with SE:
Then, just from my experience I would not recommend getting a Seki Salt.
Don´t get me wrong, they are great and powerful cutters, and I love them especially in the outdoors: But on the few I have (both in H1 and LC) the serrations tend to be a bit more aggressive and rather "pointy than wavy" out of the box.

[elena86]

Yeah, I should have mentioned I was looking at the K390 Delica (and the K390 LeafJumper). I included the Delica because I think I'll be more likely to carry it because it should be smaller in the pocket than the LeafJumper.

My initial plan was to get a UKPK SE in LC200N or Magnacut (my main EDC is an S110V UKPK at the moment), but we don't know yet if these have "good" serrations and who knows how long we'll have to wait until they become available (the LC200N SE UKPK was announced in 2022).

Concerning "good" serrations: I think this is still rather subjective.

There is @elena86 for example, who really knows his stuff and actually prefers the "old", rather aggressive, "spikey" kind of serrations (I seem to recall him saying that especially those just have to be sharpened very well and over the entire edge to show their full potential, but don´t quote me on that).

Apparently though many prefer that "shallow", "wavy", "non aggressive" serration type, me included - in my use (and I gather that´s true for many more) they just work better in regular EDC tasks, for me they are even the "better plain edge".

/ Just from looking at it on pics (!) the Seki K390 serrations seem to be of that type I prefer.

If you want to be certain to get the true SE experience based on what I can say from my limited experience AND want the knife to be small in pocket: I mean the Chap SE is an obvious choice, isn´t it?

It really highlights what serrations can do - so if you for whatever reason don´t like how the Chap SE performs, I´d say you can close the chapter SE for good, cause then it is just not for you.

I am sure though that you´d be blown away by just how crazy this thing cuts. Just be careful that it does not cut YOU, should you get one... (I may quote @twinboysdad "I have cut myself 4 times with the SE Chap, never with the PE. It’s uncanny" (viewtopic.php?p=1812028#p1812028)

Now, as said, if the goal is to experience the "better PE" feeling right out of the box with SE:
Then, just from my experience I would not recommend getting a Seki Salt.
Don´t get me wrong, they are great and powerful cutters, and I love them especially in the outdoors: But on the few I have (both in H1 and LC) the serrations tend to be a bit more aggressive and rather "pointy than wavy" out of the box.

Guilty, Gernot ! I am an old school bloke when it comes to the spyderedge pattern meaning that I like the spikey and aggressive serrations. I don't have the time and patience to shoot a live cutting session but I tell you this, my old school SS SE Police in VG10, to give just an example, is a true cutting beast and it doesn't snag or grab the material while being a joy to use ,as long as the serrations are properly sharpened. ''Properly'' for me might mean something quite different than ''properly'' for most guys here. When ''properly'' sharpened, old school spyderedge can achieve amazing cutting performance. It packs unparallel cutting power and aggressiveness,when needed, while being a smooth material separator, as smooth as any scary sharp plain edge. I also developed my own cutting technique for spyderedged blades. I use different cutting motions for different situations. The old school spyderedge is a different animal and one must learn how to tame it unless one wants to be let down or even a$$ bitten.

[olywa]

I have Sekis that started off that way, but they've become more rounded thru sharpening and I'm good with that. They've performed well all the way from pointed to wavy, but they definitely cut a little more smoothly now. I don't try to preserve the sharp points when I sharpen them as I prefer a more wavy edge.

[gooeytek]

I think people are confusing edge retention with cutting performance. Has anyone tested the hardness of H2 serrations? There might be a work-hardening effect when the serrations are ground in, but to say that it bumps H2 hardness up to REX-121 levels? The serrated edge geometry itself is what provides the much longer cutting performance over plain edge.

[Red Leader]

I think people are confusing edge retention with cutting performance. Has anyone tested the hardness of H2 serrations? There might be a work-hardening effect when the serrations are ground in, but to say that it bumps H2 hardness up to REX-121 levels? The serrated edge geometry itself is what provides the much longer cutting performance over plain edge.

This is a good point, and I think both attributes are being discussed. However, when I think of 'edge retention', I think of something akin to '# of rope cuts before it won't cut paper' or '# of sanding belt cuts...' etc. That's why I'm so curious about that comment that Eric made about H1/H2 SE ranking higher in edge retention. How was that tested, and how was it measured? I don't have a stake in the game per se, although I do have both the Rex-121 Sage 5 and, as it turns out (perhaps temporarily) an Assist serrated in H2. But I'm more interested in the information, science, and performance.

Is there something 'special' happening with this H1/H2 steel? Do we also know that it is happening with H2 if it is happening at all, since it is slightly different? Or is it all geometry related, especially regarding SE? If that is the case, I think we would see something like K390 blow H1/H2 out of the water, and therefore blow way past Rex-121, but I sort of want to see that methodology and testing first before I give in to the hype. And in doing research, I found discussion going all the way back to 2011 on this same subject, so it is nothing new, but I do think that now that we have such high-performing steels like REX-121 and 15V and the like, it would be valuable to see exactly what Eric/Sal and the crew are talking about when its mentioned that this knife steel, with the right application, can attain higher performance that what is (arguably) considered some of the highest performing steel in the current market. Curious minds want to know!

[zhyla]

Is there something 'special' happening with this H1/H2 steel? Do we also know that it is happening with H2 if it is happening at all, since it is slightly different? Or is it all geometry related, especially regarding SE?

I think the answer to all these questions is “no data”.

[Wartstein]

I think people are confusing edge retention with cutting performance. Has anyone tested the hardness of H2 serrations? There might be a work-hardening effect when the serrations are ground in, but to say that it bumps H2 hardness up to REX-121 levels? The serrated edge geometry itself is what provides the much longer cutting performance over plain edge.

Sure, in my experience and from all I read SE beats PE in the same blade and steel (but normally with a steeper edge angle!! (SE) ) "by magnitudes" to quote Dr. Larrin Thomas once more (viewtopic.php?p=1339733#p1339733)

Reasons for that could be

a) SE offers an effectively longer edge in the same blade than PE

b) The actual "edge" (in the scallops) is protected from (initial) impact by the "points" between the scallops, especially when cutting on a surface

c) well, the steeper edge angle one can give SE (and no, a comparably steep angle AND still being as strong apparently is NOT possible with PE, here I may quote Michael Janich:
"On a PlainEdge™ blade, that [acute edge angle] would leave the terminal portion of the edge extremely fragile and prone to rolling or chipping. However, the unique structure of serration teeth and, very importantly, the ridges between them, actually reinforces the structural strength of the edge. Despite its thinner edge geometry, it remains strong" (https://mailchi.mp/spyderco/spyderco-by ... cycb2mvhza, highly recommended SE article inside!)

/ All that said:

The discussion here still is somehow not about the general differences in edge retention between SE and PE in whatever steel..

...but rather:
- Why is that difference so much more noticeable and pronounced particularly in H1/H2, as they say?
- And why does that presumed H1 "work hardening" happen more so when grinding serrations than when grinding a plain edge?

[sal]

How was that tested, and how was it measured?

CATRA testing.

sal

[Evil D]

Sooooo








How about some SE Rex 121?


I can hear the grinding wheels begging for mercy already

[ladybug93]

I'll say the same thing I said in 2019 even though I pretty much never carry SE any more.

Sometimes you just have to get real world experience with something.

The way things compare on paper is not always the same as how they compare when actually being put to use.

Over the years I concluded H1 ground at a very thin edge angle and given a coarse apex is pretty much the best balance for me in terms of toughness, edge holding, corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening. I haven't found anything that strikes the same balance, though I have no tried magnacut or vanax yet. I have used LC200N a lot and while I like it quite a bit H1 seems more indestructible.

What my own senses show me when I use tools will always matter more to me than on paper comparisons others make without ever using the things being compared.

Curious...as someone who is contemplating getting more into SE knives, what were your thoughts regarding moving away from them? Thank you for any thoughts you have.

For me taking a plain edge thin and giving it a coarse apex has the same advantages (longer edge holding, grabs materials better so they don't slip off the blade) without the disadvantages (can snag on a lot of materials, requires more specialized sharpening equipment available in fewer grits, requires more of a slice when used against a cutting board etc.)

In my experience no matter how a SE has been sharpened or what type of serration pattern is used it's a lot more likely to snag during cuts than plain edge. Whether it's deep jagged serrations like a Kabar TDI, small shallow Victorinox paring knife serrations, or spyderedge. Any of these taken to a hair whittling sharp edge will snag on certain materials more than my PE blades.

Most the benefits of SE for my uses come from the edge geometry, which I can easily replicate on PE.

There's no real getting around the sharpening limitations. There are so many more options in terms of abrasive type, grit etc. for sharpening plain edged knives. I have a large toolbox full of sharpening stuff that only works on PE knives. Not to mention they need reprofiled by hand while any PE knife I can take to my belt sander to save me time.

Back when I ran polished edges on everything I fell in love with SE H1 for offering much better edge retention than PE H1. But when I discovered I could quadruple the edge holding of PE H1 simply by changing how I sharpen it, that benefit was lost on me.





YMMV but that's enough edge retention to satisfy me.

At the end of the day SE knives take more time and effort to get the edge where I want, while not offering me benefits over a thin, coarsely sharpened plain edged knife. If they did certain things much better I'd carry them but there's no significant reason I have found for my uses to carry them over PE.

i totally forgot about these videos. i finally got some pe h2 so i could see how it stacks up to se, but never tried thinning out the edge or leaving an intentionally coarse edge. i have noticed it's super easy to get an insanely sharp edge, but i'll have to try this out now.

[vivi]

I'll say the same thing I said in 2019 even though I pretty much never carry SE any more.

Sometimes you just have to get real world experience with something.

The way things compare on paper is not always the same as how they compare when actually being put to use.

Over the years I concluded H1 ground at a very thin edge angle and given a coarse apex is pretty much the best balance for me in terms of toughness, edge holding, corrosion resistance and ease of sharpening. I haven't found anything that strikes the same balance, though I have no tried magnacut or vanax yet. I have used LC200N a lot and while I like it quite a bit H1 seems more indestructible.

What my own senses show me when I use tools will always matter more to me than on paper comparisons others make without ever using the things being compared.

Curious...as someone who is contemplating getting more into SE knives, what were your thoughts regarding moving away from them? Thank you for any thoughts you have.

For me taking a plain edge thin and giving it a coarse apex has the same advantages (longer edge holding, grabs materials better so they don't slip off the blade) without the disadvantages (can snag on a lot of materials, requires more specialized sharpening equipment available in fewer grits, requires more of a slice when used against a cutting board etc.)

In my experience no matter how a SE has been sharpened or what type of serration pattern is used it's a lot more likely to snag during cuts than plain edge. Whether it's deep jagged serrations like a Kabar TDI, small shallow Victorinox paring knife serrations, or spyderedge. Any of these taken to a hair whittling sharp edge will snag on certain materials more than my PE blades.

Most the benefits of SE for my uses come from the edge geometry, which I can easily replicate on PE.

There's no real getting around the sharpening limitations. There are so many more options in terms of abrasive type, grit etc. for sharpening plain edged knives. I have a large toolbox full of sharpening stuff that only works on PE knives. Not to mention they need reprofiled by hand while any PE knife I can take to my belt sander to save me time.

Back when I ran polished edges on everything I fell in love with SE H1 for offering much better edge retention than PE H1. But when I discovered I could quadruple the edge holding of PE H1 simply by changing how I sharpen it, that benefit was lost on me.





YMMV but that's enough edge retention to satisfy me.

At the end of the day SE knives take more time and effort to get the edge where I want, while not offering me benefits over a thin, coarsely sharpened plain edged knife. If they did certain things much better I'd carry them but there's no significant reason I have found for my uses to carry them over PE.

i totally forgot about these videos. i finally got some pe h2 so i could see how it stacks up to se, but never tried thinning out the edge or leaving an intentionally coarse edge. i have noticed it's super easy to get an insanely sharp edge, but i'll have to try this out now.

I'd recommend it. This is one of my favorite work knives:

[hobbyist]

Curious...as someone who is contemplating getting more into SE knives, what were your thoughts regarding moving away from them? Thank you for any thoughts you have.

For me taking a plain edge thin and giving it a coarse apex has the same advantages (longer edge holding, grabs materials better so they don't slip off the blade) without the disadvantages (can snag on a lot of materials, requires more specialized sharpening equipment available in fewer grits, requires more of a slice when used against a cutting board etc.)

In my experience no matter how a SE has been sharpened or what type of serration pattern is used it's a lot more likely to snag during cuts than plain edge. Whether it's deep jagged serrations like a Kabar TDI, small shallow Victorinox paring knife serrations, or spyderedge. Any of these taken to a hair whittling sharp edge will snag on certain materials more than my PE blades.

Most the benefits of SE for my uses come from the edge geometry, which I can easily replicate on PE.

There's no real getting around the sharpening limitations. There are so many more options in terms of abrasive type, grit etc. for sharpening plain edged knives. I have a large toolbox full of sharpening stuff that only works on PE knives. Not to mention they need reprofiled by hand while any PE knife I can take to my belt sander to save me time.

Back when I ran polished edges on everything I fell in love with SE H1 for offering much better edge retention than PE H1. But when I discovered I could quadruple the edge holding of PE H1 simply by changing how I sharpen it, that benefit was lost on me.





YMMV but that's enough edge retention to satisfy me.

At the end of the day SE knives take more time and effort to get the edge where I want, while not offering me benefits over a thin, coarsely sharpened plain edged knife. If they did certain things much better I'd carry them but there's no significant reason I have found for my uses to carry them over PE.

i totally forgot about these videos. i finally got some pe h2 so i could see how it stacks up to se, but never tried thinning out the edge or leaving an intentionally coarse edge. i have noticed it's super easy to get an insanely sharp edge, but i'll have to try this out now.

I'd recommend it. This is one of my favorite work knives:

vivi have you tried the same coarse low angle edge on the LC200N version of these knives? I'm curious if that performs close.

[Wartstein]

Happened to come across another quote by Larrin Thomas about how superior SE generally is over PE when it comes to edge holding, thought it might be of interest:

"I have only tested one serrated knife and that was one in VG-10. It never dulled over the course of the test (even with the longer test for serrated blades). So I lost interest in testing serrated blades. Just waste a lot of my test media." (viewtopic.php?p=1487341#p1487341)

[Red Leader]

How was that tested, and how was it measured?

CATRA testing.

sal

Sal, thank you for taking time to respond. Any chance you would be willing to divulge the details of the results, like number of cuts? Also, have there been any other tests of other SE Spydies? Is the stellar result of SE H1 from it outlasting all other steels, or simply being the best tested up till this point, with many still yet to be tested? I'm curious to know if the result of SE H1/H2, comparable to Rex-121, is more about the steel, the SE, or the combo - and being able to compare the results of CATRA testing of SE H1 to the results of any other SE steels could prove instructive.

For example, if SE H1 tests so well, could we see even more amplified results from a steel (like K390 or M398) that is better known for good edge retention? Based on Steeltoes83's cut tests, I'd love to see more exploration of M398, given its killer performance.

More wishful thinking: If a modified Spyderedge with even smaller serrations and less acute points were developed, could we even see a SE on Rex-121, as another poster mused about? If scientific testing shows a more favorable edge stability (i.e. less chipping) from serrated versus plain edge (linked article referenced by @Wartstein above), could a steel like REX-121 actually be the ideal steel for Spyderedge, if the serrations were tuned just a bit for that steel?

It's pretty fun thinking about these these, especially with the goal being absolute maximum edge performance. Also thank you for taking such an enthusiast-minded perspective on these topics. One of the main reasons I gravitate to Spyderco.