Spyderco Forums

endura3 wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2024 3:31 pm

I like knives with the boye dent because it helps with indexing the lockbar when you're wearing gloves.

I've also noticed a variety of lockbacks are more or less prone to rattle when you use them with a hammer grip. Moreso than the presence or absence of the dent alone, I think it also has to do with the geometry of the lockbar relative to where you concentrate your grip:



This image (poorly) shows the distance on each knife between the lockbar pivot point and the "furthest forward" you can grip the knife, excluding the choils on knives that have them. For the Siren up top for example, there's very little distance there. That means that the majority of the force you're applying to the back of the knife when cutting hard is going behind the lockbar pivot, so it's raising the lockbar ever so slightly and introducing some rattle.

I love the Siren, but again, the thing to note is that the lockbar pivot is really close to the furthest point forward you can hold the handle in a hammer grip. The N5 is similar, and I also notice a lot of rattle if I hold it in a hammer grip without using the choil, but I almost never use the knife in that grip.

The other factors seem to be (in order of impact):

1. The thickness of the blade/lockbar: Thicker blades, like the Siren, Native, and original Manix, seem more prone to this rattle with hammer grips. That makes sense, as the surface area to push down on is larger so it's easier for your hand to "bight" down onto the lockbar and introduce some play.

2. The distance between the lockbar cutout and the pivot/forward grip area: take the Atlantic and the D4 above for example. The D4's lockbar cutout is much further back, which might make you think it would be less prone to rattling. But this isn't a difference I've noticed in practice, as long as the knife has sufficient grip area forward of the lockbar pivot point.

3. Boye dent: I think this is most pertinent for knives with "round" backs where the lockbar is sitting at the "top" of the handle, like my beloved E3:



For the P4 in the top pic for example, the lack of a dent has never contributed to any wobble. In the D4 above, I don't think the lack of a dent would be an issue. But I previously owned an AT55 E3 without the boye dent and have noticed the newer version with the dent feels much less "rattly" in a hammer grip.

That's all to say I think it's overall a good thing in knives that have the lockbar travel/depression to allow it. I certainly love it for indexing the lockbar cutout. But I'm not sure it's the main thing that contributes to this hammer grip rattle outside of specific designs, and I think the geometry of the lockbar relative to the grip area is probably more important for most knives

RustyIron wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2024 7:42 pm

After watching the video, I tried holding the knife the same way. I can't do any work while holding it like that, but I can make it rattle.

270ultimate wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2024 8:27 pm

I thought the grip in the video looked a little more modified saber than hammer, but if that’s the way OP is using it then the point remains valid.

270ultimate wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 12:03 pm

I think the more informative video might be one of you using a knife “for real” in one of those useful death grips you demonstrated, and use it for a knife-related task so we can all hear it rattle while in use.

270ultimate wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 12:03 pm

I think the more informative video might be one of you using a knife “for real” in one of those useful death grips you demonstrated, and use it for a knife-related task so we can all hear it rattle while in use.

JFR1 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 11:44 am

I was curious and gave this a try after watching your video. I definitely can get my Natives to rattle a bit, but that's a really uncomfortable grip and not one I've ever needed to use. I do use my knives, but more often than not, a slipjoint is more than enough for me.

RazorSharp86 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 2:14 pm

270ultimate wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 12:03 pm

I think the more informative video might be one of you using a knife “for real” in one of those useful death grips you demonstrated, and use it for a knife-related task so we can all hear it rattle while in use.

I’m shocked (not really) that the copes still keep on coming.
I found out this occurs during use, when I was cutting hard materials that required substantial effort to cut through.
The rattle is just an easy way for me to display what I’m talking about.

weeping minora wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 3:51 pm

RazorSharp86 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 2:14 pm

270ultimate wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 12:03 pm

I think the more informative video might be one of you using a knife “for real” in one of those useful death grips you demonstrated, and use it for a knife-related task so we can all hear it rattle while in use.

I’m shocked (not really) that the copes still keep on coming.
I found out this occurs during use, when I was cutting hard materials that required substantial effort to cut through.
The rattle is just an easy way for me to display what I’m talking about.

I suppose the questionability is coming from those who are using their knives to separate matter and materials that do not require "substantial effort to cut through.". Just because someone does not apply excessive force upon their folding pocket knives, does not mean that light, or moderate usage is inequivocal to "using your knife". I will never understand this BS rhetoric in defending and slandering the usage of users and their knives within the online context of the knife community.

I mean, we are talking about a folding pocket knife here. The failure point is literally a built in junction of the whole concept; the lock merely exists as an extended safety mechanism to prevent accidental failure, and not to replace the potential for failure when overloading such safety implementation. The more stress (in any directional force, and especially so in the direction to decompress that mechanism) upon that safety mechanism, the greater the potential is for that safety to fail.

I suppose this suggestion will "get flamed", but when does a small fixed blade that can handle this sort of "substantial effort to cut through" something not become the most viable option to utilize in a situation like this?

The passive aggressive comments following the fuel to your fire from those who see, and agree with your point of view, either exposes your true intentions, or at least muddies the point you're trying to conclude to, when those who oppose you come forth and still do not understand, or agree. Are you merely just trying to display this phenomenon, or are you trying to prove that you're right, in order to have it your way?

As a side-note, I believe that "simply adding a boye dent" to a non-boye dented back-lock (I don't care to speak on the mechanics in inceasing lock depression failure) will void the warranty of the knife due to modification. Ultimately, the choice is yours in risking potential "failure" for your usage, or risking never being able to utilize the warranty if an additional problem were to occur that makes the knife otherwise unsafe, or unusable.

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2024 3:47 pm

That´s actually a great observation and would perfectly explain why the Goddard blade rattles in a hammer grip, while the Endura blade does not (both knives feature a boye dent).

Similar to your pic I marked the distances from lockbar pivot to "furthest forward where one will usually grip":

- Very short on the Goddard
- Pretty long on the Endura


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vivi wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 4:24 pm

weeping minora wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 3:51 pm

RazorSharp86 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 2:14 pm

270ultimate wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 12:03 pm

I think the more informative video might be one of you using a knife “for real” in one of those useful death grips you demonstrated, and use it for a knife-related task so we can all hear it rattle while in use.

I’m shocked (not really) that the copes still keep on coming.
I found out this occurs during use, when I was cutting hard materials that required substantial effort to cut through.
The rattle is just an easy way for me to display what I’m talking about.

I suppose the questionability is coming from those who are using their knives to separate matter and materials that do not require "substantial effort to cut through.". Just because someone does not apply excessive force upon their folding pocket knives, does not mean that light, or moderate usage is inequivocal to "using your knife". I will never understand this BS rhetoric in defending and slandering the usage of users and their knives within the online context of the knife community.

I mean, we are talking about a folding pocket knife here. The failure point is literally a built in junction of the whole concept; the lock merely exists as an extended safety mechanism to prevent accidental failure, and not to replace the potential for failure when overloading such safety implementation. The more stress (in any directional force, and especially so in the direction to decompress that mechanism) upon that safety mechanism, the greater the potential is for that safety to fail.

I suppose this suggestion will "get flamed", but when does a small fixed blade that can handle this sort of "substantial effort to cut through" something not become the most viable option to utilize in a situation like this?

The passive aggressive comments following the fuel to your fire from those who see, and agree with your point of view, either exposes your true intentions, or at least muddies the point you're trying to conclude to, when those who oppose you come forth and still do not understand, or agree. Are you merely just trying to display this phenomenon, or are you trying to prove that you're right, in order to have it your way?

As a side-note, I believe that "simply adding a boye dent" to a non-boye dented back-lock (I don't care to speak on the mechanics in inceasing lock depression failure) will void the warranty of the knife due to modification. Ultimately, the choice is yours in risking potential "failure" for your usage, or risking never being able to utilize the warranty if an additional problem were to occur that makes the knife otherwise unsafe, or unusable.

Doesn't take excessive force in certain models though.



that's less force than I'd use to cut an apple in half,using a regular working grip.

weeping minora wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 3:51 pm

RazorSharp86 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 2:14 pm

270ultimate wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 12:03 pm

I think the more informative video might be one of you using a knife “for real” in one of those useful death grips you demonstrated, and use it for a knife-related task so we can all hear it rattle while in use.

I’m shocked (not really) that the copes still keep on coming.
I found out this occurs during use, when I was cutting hard materials that required substantial effort to cut through.
The rattle is just an easy way for me to display what I’m talking about.

I suppose the questionability is coming from those who are using their knives to separate matter and materials that do not require "substantial effort to cut through.". Just because someone does not apply excessive force upon their folding pocket knives, does not mean that light, or moderate usage is inequivocal to "using your knife". I will never understand this BS rhetoric in defending and slandering the usage of users and their knives within the online context of the knife community.

I mean, we are talking about a folding pocket knife here. The failure point is literally a built in junction of the whole concept; the lock merely exists as an extended safety mechanism to prevent accidental failure, and not to replace the potential for failure when overloading such safety implementation. The more stress (in any directional force, and especially so in the direction to decompress that mechanism) upon that safety mechanism, the greater the potential is for that safety to fail.

I suppose this suggestion will "get flamed", but when does a small fixed blade that can handle this sort of "substantial effort to cut through" something not become the most viable option to utilize in a situation like this?

The passive aggressive comments following the fuel to your fire from those who see, and agree with your point of view, either exposes your true intentions, or at least muddies the point you're trying to conclude to, when those who oppose you come forth and still do not understand, or agree. Are you merely just trying to display this phenomenon, or are you trying to prove that you're right, in order to have it your way?

As a side-note, I believe that "simply adding a boye dent" to a non-boye dented back-lock (I don't care to speak on the mechanics in inceasing lock depression failure) will void the warranty of the knife due to modification. Ultimately, the choice is yours in risking potential "failure" for your usage, or risking never being able to utilize the warranty if an additional problem were to occur that makes the knife otherwise unsafe, or unusable.

endura3 wrote: ↑

Mon Dec 09, 2024 4:38 pm

Wartstein wrote: ↑

Sun Dec 08, 2024 3:47 pm

That´s actually a great observation and would perfectly explain why the Goddard blade rattles in a hammer grip, while the Endura blade does not (both knives feature a boye dent).

Similar to your pic I marked the distances from lockbar pivot to "furthest forward where one will usually grip":

- Very short on the Goddard
- Pretty long on the Endura


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Hi wartstein (and RazorSharp86), I'm glad you've been able to help validate this concept! I really appreciate the image of the Goddard above, as it helps to show how similar that model is to the Siren at least in terms of lockbar geometry and this particular trait.

Alao, I don't think anyone is trying to point this specific occurrence out as a "fault" or "error" of the knives that we all appreciate and love. Rather, it's an edge-case circumstance which may arise sometimes, for certain users, under a specific grip.

And as others have said, it absolutely shouldn't be a make or break factor in determining if a knife is "quality" or not. The Siren is one of my favorite knives!

If I'm cutting something with a lot of downward pressure in a hammer grip, in a knife where this is a noticeable effect, this simply introduces a bit of rattle in the action of the knife during that cutting movement. That's all. Is this impacting the safety of the lock in that moment? Of course not, because I'm applying downward pressure to whatever I'm cutting and there's thus no realistic circumstance where the lockbar would fail as a result.

The precise effect is also obviously gonna be contingent on your hand shape and the specific use of the knife, so YMMV.

Like RazorSharp, Wartstein, and others, I like discussing these specific "edge-case" circumstances because it's simply interesting to me - it's fun to discuss the kinds of unique scenarios we come across in our knife usage, using our favorite knives. And I've been following this specific forum for 20-odd years precisely because it's the only place people bring up these kinds of questions.