Boye dent

[Switchback]

Good stuff guys!

[RazorSharp86]

I like knives with the boye dent because it helps with indexing the lockbar when you're wearing gloves.

I've also noticed a variety of lockbacks are more or less prone to rattle when you use them with a hammer grip. Moreso than the presence or absence of the dent alone, I think it also has to do with the geometry of the lockbar relative to where you concentrate your grip:



This image (poorly) shows the distance on each knife between the lockbar pivot point and the "furthest forward" you can grip the knife, excluding the choils on knives that have them. For the Siren up top for example, there's very little distance there. That means that the majority of the force you're applying to the back of the knife when cutting hard is going behind the lockbar pivot, so it's raising the lockbar ever so slightly and introducing some rattle.

I love the Siren, but again, the thing to note is that the lockbar pivot is really close to the furthest point forward you can hold the handle in a hammer grip. The N5 is similar, and I also notice a lot of rattle if I hold it in a hammer grip without using the choil, but I almost never use the knife in that grip.

The other factors seem to be (in order of impact):

1. The thickness of the blade/lockbar: Thicker blades, like the Siren, Native, and original Manix, seem more prone to this rattle with hammer grips. That makes sense, as the surface area to push down on is larger so it's easier for your hand to "bight" down onto the lockbar and introduce some play.

2. The distance between the lockbar cutout and the pivot/forward grip area: take the Atlantic and the D4 above for example. The D4's lockbar cutout is much further back, which might make you think it would be less prone to rattling. But this isn't a difference I've noticed in practice, as long as the knife has sufficient grip area forward of the lockbar pivot point.

3. Boye dent: I think this is most pertinent for knives with "round" backs where the lockbar is sitting at the "top" of the handle, like my beloved E3:



For the P4 in the top pic for example, the lack of a dent has never contributed to any wobble. In the D4 above, I don't think the lack of a dent would be an issue. But I previously owned an AT55 E3 without the boye dent and have noticed the newer version with the dent feels much less "rattly" in a hammer grip.

That's all to say I think it's overall a good thing in knives that have the lockbar travel/depression to allow it. I certainly love it for indexing the lockbar cutout. But I'm not sure it's the main thing that contributes to this hammer grip rattle outside of specific designs, and I think the geometry of the lockbar relative to the grip area is probably more important for most knives

Responses like this one is why I keep posting threads that I know will be controversial and will result jn overwhelming amounts of ppl who’ll just defend the brand and undermine the “concern” or phenomenon.

Thank you!
This is an excellent observation.
I went through my knives, and realized that my Police 4 doesn’t have a dent, but doesn’t suffer from the rock when gripped hard.
I think you might be onto something, here…!

[RustyIron]

After watching the video, I tried holding the knife the same way. I can't do any work while holding it like that, but I can make it rattle.

[270ultimate]

I thought the grip in the video looked a little more modified saber than hammer, but if that’s the way OP is using it then the point remains valid.

[RazorSharp86]

After watching the video, I tried holding the knife the same way. I can't do any work while holding it like that, but I can make it rattle.

Lol. Lmao.
Come on now. You never use a pinch grip?
You’re either gaslighting me, or completely and utterly joking.

[RazorSharp86]

I thought the grip in the video looked a little more modified saber than hammer, but if that’s the way OP is using it then the point remains valid.

I demonstrated a pinch grip and hammer grip in the video.
If it isn’t evident, I can redo it using a different knife.
I decided not to “cheat” and hold the knife in reverse grip (what you’d use to cut with edge towards you) or a chest lever grip (often used for carving/ hard cuts), in which the knife exhibits even more severe disengagement.

I realize that some folks buy their fancy knives to post photos on SM and to flick open and closed, but some of us use knives for real, and many different holds come in handy for various tasks.

[JFR1]

I was curious and gave this a try after watching your video. I definitely can get my Natives to rattle a bit, but that's a really uncomfortable grip and not one I've ever needed to use. I do use my knives, but more often than not, a slipjoint is more than enough for me.

[270ultimate]

I think the more informative video might be one of you using a knife “for real” in one of those useful death grips you demonstrated, and use it for a knife-related task so we can all hear it rattle while in use.

[vivi]

I think the more informative video might be one of you using a knife “for real” in one of those useful death grips you demonstrated, and use it for a knife-related task so we can all hear it rattle while in use.

I guess you missed my video. I showed myself using the same grip as when I cut things on a cutting board with my old Siren and it rattled.

[RazorSharp86]

I think the more informative video might be one of you using a knife “for real” in one of those useful death grips you demonstrated, and use it for a knife-related task so we can all hear it rattle while in use.

I’m shocked (not really) that the copes still keep on coming.
I found out this occurs during use, when I was cutting hard materials that required substantial effort to cut through.
The rattle is just an easy way for me to display what I’m talking about.

[RazorSharp86]

I was curious and gave this a try after watching your video. I definitely can get my Natives to rattle a bit, but that's a really uncomfortable grip and not one I've ever needed to use. I do use my knives, but more often than not, a slipjoint is more than enough for me.

I understand, which is why I mentioned that it isn’t a matter of me being fearful for the lock failing, but simply of the feeling associated with this type of issue.
The loosening of the blade, which occurs during hard cuts makes you feel like the failure could occur. It makes the knife feel cheaper and far less secure.

I have plenty of slipjoints and use them just fine. However, the slipjoints feel secure during hard cuts, while mid baclocks that exhibit the phenomenon I’m posting this thread on makes it seem like the knife’s a Chinese knockoff for $20 in that specific use cars scenario.

[weeping minora]

I think the more informative video might be one of you using a knife “for real” in one of those useful death grips you demonstrated, and use it for a knife-related task so we can all hear it rattle while in use.

I’m shocked (not really) that the copes still keep on coming.
I found out this occurs during use, when I was cutting hard materials that required substantial effort to cut through.
The rattle is just an easy way for me to display what I’m talking about.

I suppose the questionability is coming from those who are using their knives to separate matter and materials that do not require "substantial effort to cut through.". Just because someone does not apply excessive force upon their folding pocket knives, does not mean that light, or moderate usage is inequivocal to "using your knife". I will never understand this BS rhetoric in defending and slandering the usage of users and their knives within the online context of the knife community.

I mean, we are talking about a folding pocket knife here. The failure point is literally a built in junction of the whole concept; the lock merely exists as an extended safety mechanism to prevent accidental failure, and not to replace the potential for failure when overloading such safety implementation. The more stress (in any directional force, and especially so in the direction to decompress that mechanism) upon that safety mechanism, the greater the potential is for that safety to fail.

I suppose this suggestion will "get flamed", but when does a small fixed blade that can handle this sort of "substantial effort to cut through" something not become the most viable option to utilize in a situation like this?

The passive aggressive comments following the fuel to your fire from those who see, and agree with your point of view, either exposes your true intentions, or at least muddies the point you're trying to conclude to, when those who oppose you come forth and still do not understand, or agree. Are you merely just trying to display this phenomenon, or are you trying to prove that you're right, in order to have it your way?

As a side-note, I believe that "simply adding a boye dent" to a non-boye dented back-lock (I don't care to speak on the mechanics in inceasing lock depression failure) will void the warranty of the knife due to modification. Ultimately, the choice is yours in risking potential "failure" for your usage, or risking never being able to utilize the warranty if an additional problem were to occur that makes the knife otherwise unsafe, or unusable.

[vivi]

I think the more informative video might be one of you using a knife “for real” in one of those useful death grips you demonstrated, and use it for a knife-related task so we can all hear it rattle while in use.

I’m shocked (not really) that the copes still keep on coming.
I found out this occurs during use, when I was cutting hard materials that required substantial effort to cut through.
The rattle is just an easy way for me to display what I’m talking about.

I suppose the questionability is coming from those who are using their knives to separate matter and materials that do not require "substantial effort to cut through.". Just because someone does not apply excessive force upon their folding pocket knives, does not mean that light, or moderate usage is inequivocal to "using your knife". I will never understand this BS rhetoric in defending and slandering the usage of users and their knives within the online context of the knife community.

I mean, we are talking about a folding pocket knife here. The failure point is literally a built in junction of the whole concept; the lock merely exists as an extended safety mechanism to prevent accidental failure, and not to replace the potential for failure when overloading such safety implementation. The more stress (in any directional force, and especially so in the direction to decompress that mechanism) upon that safety mechanism, the greater the potential is for that safety to fail.

I suppose this suggestion will "get flamed", but when does a small fixed blade that can handle this sort of "substantial effort to cut through" something not become the most viable option to utilize in a situation like this?

The passive aggressive comments following the fuel to your fire from those who see, and agree with your point of view, either exposes your true intentions, or at least muddies the point you're trying to conclude to, when those who oppose you come forth and still do not understand, or agree. Are you merely just trying to display this phenomenon, or are you trying to prove that you're right, in order to have it your way?

As a side-note, I believe that "simply adding a boye dent" to a non-boye dented back-lock (I don't care to speak on the mechanics in inceasing lock depression failure) will void the warranty of the knife due to modification. Ultimately, the choice is yours in risking potential "failure" for your usage, or risking never being able to utilize the warranty if an additional problem were to occur that makes the knife otherwise unsafe, or unusable.

Doesn't take excessive force in certain models though.



that's less force than I'd use to cut an apple in half,using a regular working grip.

[endura3]

That´s actually a great observation and would perfectly explain why the Goddard blade rattles in a hammer grip, while the Endura blade does not (both knives feature a boye dent).

Similar to your pic I marked the distances from lockbar pivot to "furthest forward where one will usually grip":

- Very short on the Goddard
- Pretty long on the Endura


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Hi wartstein (and RazorSharp86), I'm glad you've been able to help validate this concept! I really appreciate the image of the Goddard above, as it helps to show how similar that model is to the Siren at least in terms of lockbar geometry and this particular trait.

Alao, I don't think anyone is trying to point this specific occurrence out as a "fault" or "error" of the knives that we all appreciate and love. Rather, it's an edge-case circumstance which may arise sometimes, for certain users, under a specific grip.

And as others have said, it absolutely shouldn't be a make or break factor in determining if a knife is "quality" or not. The Siren is one of my favorite knives!

If I'm cutting something with a lot of downward pressure in a hammer grip, in a knife where this is a noticeable effect, this simply introduces a bit of rattle in the action of the knife during that cutting movement. That's all. Is this impacting the safety of the lock in that moment? Of course not, because I'm applying downward pressure to whatever I'm cutting and there's thus no realistic circumstance where the lockbar would fail as a result.

The precise effect is also obviously gonna be contingent on your hand shape and the specific use of the knife, so YMMV.

Like RazorSharp, Wartstein, and others, I like discussing these specific "edge-case" circumstances because it's simply interesting to me - it's fun to discuss the kinds of unique scenarios we come across in our knife usage, using our favorite knives. And I've been following this specific forum for 20-odd years precisely because it's the only place people bring up these kinds of questions.

[weeping minora]

I think the more informative video might be one of you using a knife “for real” in one of those useful death grips you demonstrated, and use it for a knife-related task so we can all hear it rattle while in use.

I’m shocked (not really) that the copes still keep on coming.
I found out this occurs during use, when I was cutting hard materials that required substantial effort to cut through.
The rattle is just an easy way for me to display what I’m talking about.

I suppose the questionability is coming from those who are using their knives to separate matter and materials that do not require "substantial effort to cut through.". Just because someone does not apply excessive force upon their folding pocket knives, does not mean that light, or moderate usage is inequivocal to "using your knife". I will never understand this BS rhetoric in defending and slandering the usage of users and their knives within the online context of the knife community.

I mean, we are talking about a folding pocket knife here. The failure point is literally a built in junction of the whole concept; the lock merely exists as an extended safety mechanism to prevent accidental failure, and not to replace the potential for failure when overloading such safety implementation. The more stress (in any directional force, and especially so in the direction to decompress that mechanism) upon that safety mechanism, the greater the potential is for that safety to fail.

I suppose this suggestion will "get flamed", but when does a small fixed blade that can handle this sort of "substantial effort to cut through" something not become the most viable option to utilize in a situation like this?

The passive aggressive comments following the fuel to your fire from those who see, and agree with your point of view, either exposes your true intentions, or at least muddies the point you're trying to conclude to, when those who oppose you come forth and still do not understand, or agree. Are you merely just trying to display this phenomenon, or are you trying to prove that you're right, in order to have it your way?

As a side-note, I believe that "simply adding a boye dent" to a non-boye dented back-lock (I don't care to speak on the mechanics in inceasing lock depression failure) will void the warranty of the knife due to modification. Ultimately, the choice is yours in risking potential "failure" for your usage, or risking never being able to utilize the warranty if an additional problem were to occur that makes the knife otherwise unsafe, or unusable.

Doesn't take excessive force in certain models though.



that's less force than I'd use to cut an apple in half,using a regular working grip.

This may be why the Siren is now discontinued?

OP stresses the point as though it were a feature on all non-dented Spyderco mid back-locks, to the point that those who haven't experienced this, or don't see overall concern (this does not mean that no one sees the overall point displayed here), are somehow invalid to expressing their viewpoint within this thread, or at least not without passive aggressive slander. I was all on board and intrigued by this phenomenon, whilst never having experienced this myself, but the tone has continued to change to suit the OPs intentions once more people have started to agree with his viewpoint. Kind of like having liquid courage to then start to come clean with your intentions. Just my observation. Hope this works out for the best.

[RazorSharp86]

I think the more informative video might be one of you using a knife “for real” in one of those useful death grips you demonstrated, and use it for a knife-related task so we can all hear it rattle while in use.

I’m shocked (not really) that the copes still keep on coming.
I found out this occurs during use, when I was cutting hard materials that required substantial effort to cut through.
The rattle is just an easy way for me to display what I’m talking about.

I suppose the questionability is coming from those who are using their knives to separate matter and materials that do not require "substantial effort to cut through.". Just because someone does not apply excessive force upon their folding pocket knives, does not mean that light, or moderate usage is inequivocal to "using your knife". I will never understand this BS rhetoric in defending and slandering the usage of users and their knives within the online context of the knife community.

I mean, we are talking about a folding pocket knife here. The failure point is literally a built in junction of the whole concept; the lock merely exists as an extended safety mechanism to prevent accidental failure, and not to replace the potential for failure when overloading such safety implementation. The more stress (in any directional force, and especially so in the direction to decompress that mechanism) upon that safety mechanism, the greater the potential is for that safety to fail.

I suppose this suggestion will "get flamed", but when does a small fixed blade that can handle this sort of "substantial effort to cut through" something not become the most viable option to utilize in a situation like this?

The passive aggressive comments following the fuel to your fire from those who see, and agree with your point of view, either exposes your true intentions, or at least muddies the point you're trying to conclude to, when those who oppose you come forth and still do not understand, or agree. Are you merely just trying to display this phenomenon, or are you trying to prove that you're right, in order to have it your way?

As a side-note, I believe that "simply adding a boye dent" to a non-boye dented back-lock (I don't care to speak on the mechanics in inceasing lock depression failure) will void the warranty of the knife due to modification. Ultimately, the choice is yours in risking potential "failure" for your usage, or risking never being able to utilize the warranty if an additional problem were to occur that makes the knife otherwise unsafe, or unusable.

Stop pretending to be offended after making a post that suggests the video I posted was not the “right way” to display the topic of discussion.
You could have spared the projection.

[RazorSharp86]

That´s actually a great observation and would perfectly explain why the Goddard blade rattles in a hammer grip, while the Endura blade does not (both knives feature a boye dent).

Similar to your pic I marked the distances from lockbar pivot to "furthest forward where one will usually grip":

- Very short on the Goddard
- Pretty long on the Endura


server host gratis

Hi wartstein (and RazorSharp86), I'm glad you've been able to help validate this concept! I really appreciate the image of the Goddard above, as it helps to show how similar that model is to the Siren at least in terms of lockbar geometry and this particular trait.

Alao, I don't think anyone is trying to point this specific occurrence out as a "fault" or "error" of the knives that we all appreciate and love. Rather, it's an edge-case circumstance which may arise sometimes, for certain users, under a specific grip.

And as others have said, it absolutely shouldn't be a make or break factor in determining if a knife is "quality" or not. The Siren is one of my favorite knives!

If I'm cutting something with a lot of downward pressure in a hammer grip, in a knife where this is a noticeable effect, this simply introduces a bit of rattle in the action of the knife during that cutting movement. That's all. Is this impacting the safety of the lock in that moment? Of course not, because I'm applying downward pressure to whatever I'm cutting and there's thus no realistic circumstance where the lockbar would fail as a result.

The precise effect is also obviously gonna be contingent on your hand shape and the specific use of the knife, so YMMV.

Like RazorSharp, Wartstein, and others, I like discussing these specific "edge-case" circumstances because it's simply interesting to me - it's fun to discuss the kinds of unique scenarios we come across in our knife usage, using our favorite knives. And I've been following this specific forum for 20-odd years precisely because it's the only place people bring up these kinds of questions.

100%
It’s always amusing to see people act like it’s very unusual to criticize a knife for not fulfilling its basic function after spending hundreds of dollars (over and over again) on something you already have too much of.
This is a hobby, and I love dissecting the design choices of every knife (or category of knives I can or do actually buy). This is part of this thing for me - the knife hobby.

Thanks again for the time you took to post the informative comment. You and others.

[sal]

All points of view are interesting to us. We added the Boye dent because Mike Janich showed a possible design flaw to me on several models. The dent was a good immediate solution. designing the dent so the lock bar was symmetrical with the lock well in the handle did take some thought, but it worked out.

Then we learned that there were other factors involved in the possibility of pressing hard enough with the fleshy part of your hand to slightly loosen the lock, so we started to make changes to the size and shape of the cut out in the handle for the lock bar. We are still refining this concept, which is why i'm listening.

The "pop-up" experience when pushing hard on the tip, as in the Siren, was common of all of our knives for the first 10-15 years. As we refined the shape of the lock hammer, this eased. The Pop-up in the Siren was a different issue than what the OP is talking about.

sal

[gk4ever2]

I agree with those who said to use a fixed blade – you can grip it as tightly as needed without concern for blade play, lock disengagement and so on. I have always said to use the right tool for the job. Why use a sub-optimal tool when a better one is readily available?

I like back lock knives, with or without the Boye dent. It is good to know their limitations though.

[sal]

Hi Gk4ever2,

Welcome to our forum.

sal