DougC-3 wrote:
I usually just say something like, when I've needed a short blade for wood carving, etc, my hand has always remained the same size :D
So true. I think the blade to handle ratio is largely a visual cue. Folding knives with empty space in the handles just seem awkward to me, no matter how useful the designs really are. Maybe I'll get over it someday, but I'm awful stubborn.
However, I do get and appreciate the concept of making great designs carry-able in restrictive environments. The Delica is a timeless classic, and it has every right to boldly go where no such knife has gone before.
Well I couldn't resist I just ordered a blue one. I love the Delica and Endura lines. So, is this a Deljanica. I wish the Jandura was a production option or perhaps a sprint!
I have a Lava wharnie and really like the full size handle and short blade. I get this knife but do agree with many that a 2.9" wharnie would prob make more sense as a functional backup tool. As it stands, IMHO, this is a better hard use utility wharnie than defense aid.
I live in a state that repealed essentially all of its knife restrictions a few years ago (thank you, Representative Coffey), and I still like this design quite a bit. Maybe it's just a novelty and/or collecting issue, but I picked up two of them.
Another, more practical reason to consider is described in the literature that comes with the knife: "To further enhance the Kahr Delica 4's discreet image, it is available with a choice of three different handle colors: black, khaki, and denim blue. Purposely chosen to blend almost invisibly with the most commonly worn pants, these colors provide highly effective 'urban camouflage for unobtrusive carry."
I'm not entirely sold on the effectiveness of this in reality: the denim blue is a lot darker than any denim I've ever owned, and the pocket clips are still silver (though also bead blasted). But it does contribute to the discretion element somewhat.
As for the price, I've only seen them selling for list or close to it. I pre-ordered one directly from Kahr, but the other from my favorite NH-based ebay seller - and that one was only a few bucks cheaper.
Surfingringo wrote:There are a plethora of awesome spyderco designs under 2.5 inches. I think thats the part that some don't get. Where is the value in this knife? You could buy something like a chaparral for the same price. Or if you had to have a delica format then buy one and spend 90 seconds with a grinder and you've got this knife. Spyderco will make me a delica...Mold the handles, grind and ht the blade, provide all the hardware and assemble it for $65. But if I want a bit of the blade ground off it's an extra $35?? Half again the cost of making the entire knife?? The only difference I see that could be the reason for the huge price markup is the logo/symbol...and like George Carlin used to say "I leave symbols to the symbol minded". :D . Hehehe. I miss Carlin!
In all seriousness though, I have no problem with the actual concept of the knife and I completely understand those of you who like the design and want to buy it. Enjoy! But I certainly understand the ones who are scratching their heads a bit on this one too. Meh, like I said in my first post...chocolate and vanilla.
Edit: before someone jumps in and corrects me, I realize the chaparral is just over 2.5 so that's probably not the best example. Dragonfly 2 would be another obvious choice though.
a drone trainer is available in the Delica format, remember this is an MBC knife. I visualize MBC guys training with the drone D4 and carrying the Kahr D4 in places the regular D4 is not allowed. I am not even close to MBC trained so just a guess.
I like it. It costs a little more than I want to pay, but I can see where the costs go. As someone who sometimes carries a Lava, and only a Lave, the shorter blade doesn't bother me. The fact it comes in blue and doesn't have any jimping is just icing on the cake.
Also, it appears the blade is stonewashed, rather than beadblasted. I haven't had any trouble with corrosion on stonewashed blades, as opposed to bead blasted ones.
I received mine this afternoon. Just got around to some pictures. I really like it. It is a very cool blade. The Delica already had a low blade to handle relationship although for some reason, it doesn't get thrown in the mix when people complain about it :rolleyes: Not that I really care, because I always like a full grip handle regardless of how long the blade actually is. Having said that, its blade really isn't shortened that much. The Khaki color I picked is very nice, I considered the blue but have two blue knives and didn't even consider the black. It seems heavier than a standard Delica and the blade is thicker I think. Not sure if I like the lack of jimping or not. It just feels foreign. I like the finish on the blade and clip although I will hopefully get a clip from Casey for this and that will look good.
It wouldn't focus close up, but you can see the blade lengths are not that much different.
This is pretty much where I'm coming from. Why pay that much for what is basically less knife? You could buy a saber grind delica and pay a modder to do it for less. Or buy a grinder and do it yourself. But obviously there are folks willing to pay more for less. To each their own.
Surfingringo wrote:There are a plethora of awesome spyderco designs under 2.5 inches. I think thats the part that some don't get. Where is the value in this knife? You could buy something like a chaparral for the same price. Or if you had to have a delica format then buy one and spend 90 seconds with a grinder and you've got this knife. Spyderco will make me a delica...Mold the handles, grind and ht the blade, provide all the hardware and assemble it for $65. But if I want a bit of the blade ground off it's an extra $35?? Half again the cost of making the entire knife?? The only difference I see that could be the reason for the huge price markup is the logo/symbol...and like George Carlin used to say "I leave symbols to the symbol minded". :D . Hehehe. I miss Carlin!
In all seriousness though, I have no problem with the actual concept of the knife and I completely understand those of you who like the design and want to buy it. Enjoy! But I certainly understand the ones who are scratching their heads a bit on this one too. Meh, like I said in my first post...chocolate and vanilla.
Edit: before someone jumps in and corrects me, I realize the chaparral is just over 2.5 so that's probably not the best example. Dragonfly 2 would be another obvious choice though.
So many knives, so few pockets... :)
-Nick
Last in: N5 Magnacut The "Spirit" of the design does not come through unless used. -Sal
It's not always about absolute practicality or pinching the last ounce out of every penny you spend. Even if you modded a standard Delica, you couldn't get a khaki handle. And those of us who appreciate Kahr firearms will enjoy this cooperative venture between two companies whose products we enjoy. The extra cost over decades of ownership and enjoyment is pretty negligible.
Thanks to everyone for your discussion of the Kahr Delica4. If you're really interested in "getting it," it helps to understand the evolution of the design, the reasoning behind it, and the economics of multi-step distribution of a product.
The original inspiration for the knife came from one of my long-time MBC students, who works for a government agency in a federal building in D.C. As a federal employee, he is allowed to carry a folding knife with a blade no longer than 2.5 inches. After developing a sound set of MBC skills, he asked me which knife/knives I would recommend to fit that need. I took a hard look at all the knives that had 2.5-inch or less blades and did some live-blade MBC-style cutting with them. The problem was that their handles were to short to allow a decent combative grip and managing impact shock was scary. Also, since we always endeavor to train with what we carry, the fact that trainer versions were not commercially available was a negative.
When I developed the original Yojimbo almost 15 years ago, I purposely had a long handle (to fill the hand and for impact-weapon potential) and a short blade (3-inch--the blade length allowed by the FAA on aircraft during heightened security alerts during the pre-9/11 era). That concept wasn't new and is regularly seen on box cutters, razor knives, carving knives, scalpels, and many other tools. If you want to cut with maximum power and control, you need enough handle to grip securely. As such, comparing the Kahr Delica to any 2.5-inch-bladed folder with a short handle is missing the point.
After giving it some thought, I bought a Delica, fired up the belt grinder, and made my student a "snubby" Delica. Since the grinder was running, I also removed the jimping, which tempts people to brave their thumbs on the rear portion of the hump in a Saber grip. This not only weakens your grip, but is a recipe for pain if you make hard contact on a thrust. For casual utility work, jimping is fine. For defensive use, it's like sharp corners and edges on a handgun--it doesn't belong.
I sent the modified Delica to my student and he absolutely loved it. He could carry it legally at work and could train with a Delica trainer to ensure that his skills matched his tool of choice. In fact, his co-workers loved it too--primarily because it offered a full-sized handle on legal-to-carry blade. Soon, I was grinding more knives for them.
A couple of years later, I taught a class in New Hampshire that included a number of students who work in Boston, which has a municipal law that establishes a 2.5-inch blade length limit. The same question came up, so I pulled up a photo of the bobbed Delicas on my laptop and quickly had a sign-up sheet for about a dozen custom-ground knives.
A few months after that, I taught in Chicago. Same stupid law, same stupid blade length, same logical question, same practical answer. Once again, I had a sign-up sheet and had to buy more grinder belts.
The concept of the knife was valid and well received by people who trained in MBC and lived in areas where blade length was severely restricted.
The original idea for the Kahr knife started with Marc Galli, a Kahr Regional Sales Manager and another long-time MBC student. Kahr had been doing the standard branded-knife thing--take a stock product, laser engrave the logo, and call it good. Thanks to Marc's passion for knives and Kahr's desire to go beyond the standard industry approach, they asked me if it would be possible to do a truly unique knife that was exclusive to Kahr. We met at the SHOT show and kicked around a number of ideas before I mentioned the bobbed Delica story. Since Kahr's headquarters is not far from Boston, they immediately "got it." And since Kahr specializes in small, easy-to-carry personal defense tools, they felt the bobbed Delica was a perfect complement to the spirit of their core product line.
When I met with Justin Moon, the founder of the company, he mentioned that he would also like the knives to blend unobtrusively with the most common colors of clothing and asked about the possibility of colored handles. Specifically, he wanted black, khaki, and denim blue--ideally with matching clips and screws. Since a denim-colored handle was one of the original (but unrealized) design features of the first Yojimbo, I was stoked at the concept and Justin's insights. Sadly, our Japanese manufacturer couldn't effectively color match the clips and screws with any coating that offered long-wearing durability, so the "fall-back" option was a dull, non-reflective gray stonewash finish.
In case you're wondering how the Kahr Delica actually performs in cutting, I answered that question very definitively a couple of weekends ago at a seminar I taught in Costa Mesa, CA. To illustrate the cutting power of a small knife and the need to understand the actual destructive power of your carry blade, I used a Kahr Delica on a typical pork man target. It easily cut to the "bone," and confirmed that the Kahr Delica will do everything we need it to do as an effective personal defense tool for MBC-style tactics.
With regard to pricing, it's a matter of simple manufacturing economics. Manufacturers make stuff. They then have several options:
1. They can sell a bunch of product to distributors, ensuring that the margins on that sale allow them (the manufacturer) to profit enough to be a viable business. The distributors then sell to dealers, raising the price and taking a margin in the process.
2. The manufacturer can sell smaller quantities directly to dealers (who then sell to consumers, raising the price and taking a margin in the process).
3. The manufacturer can sell directly to consumers.
Spyderco does all three and tries extremely hard to respect the often competing dynamics they each require.
As a manufacturer, Kahr follows a similar set of dynamics for the products they make. However, when they purchase a product from another manufacturer (i.e. Spyderco), their cost of goods is automatically higher. Functionally, they have become a "master distributor" and added another tier to the structure.
In the days before the internet, this process worked well because all the levels in the hierarchy had substantial overhead. That overhead prevented them from taking tiny profit margins because they couldn't afford to. Today, the barrier of entry to do business is much lower. Online, a guy with a web site shipping product out of his basement can appear just as legit as a retail store with dozens of employees. The basement guy can sell at deep discounts and make tiny margins because his overhead is next to nothing. Larger business that provide better selection and better customer service have to pay for those costs somehow, so their margins--and their prices--are higher.
Kahr specifically wanted to hit a $100 MSRP on their knives to keep them affordable. That puts their retail price below that of a standard Delica; however, because they are functionally a master distributor, not a manufacturer, the dynamics of determining the ultimate "street price" will be different. Spyderco will not be selling these knives directly, so the sales "process" to the public, as well as the cascading process of determining the price at each tier, begins with Kahr.
I hope this explanation helps you understand both the intent and the pricing dynamics of these knives more clearly. Spyderco is honored that Kahr chose to work with us on this project and respect their decision to make truly unique branded knives rather than stock products engraved with a logo. For Delica fans, it also provides unique, collectible variants of one of Spyderco's most popular designs. For me, the denim version finally satisfies my longstanding quest for a jean-camouflaged handle. That's why it's my new left-side carry knife...
Stay safe,
Mike
Stay safe,
Mike
Michael Janich
Spyderco Special Projects Coordinator
Founder and Lead Instructor, Martial Blade Concepts
Thanks for that explanation. That's definitely one thing I like about this knife, the thought that went into it, rather than the typical, slap a logo on some Chinese knife that most gun companies do.
I got to thinking more about this and I don't think the price is unreasonable. Initially I thought, why pay more for a cut down blade but then I realized I'm about to pay a good amount of cash on a couple regrinds. If I could do regrinds myself the way I could shorten a blade then I would, but I understand first hand how not being able to do that mod results in paying someone else to do it, and for the changes on this blade I could see them costing as much as the price increase. So if you look at it as a sort of semi custom job then the price isn't bad as long as that's what you want.
Evil D wrote:I got to thinking more about this and I don't think the price is unreasonable. Initially I thought, why pay more for a cut down blade but then I realized I'm about to pay a good amount of cash on a couple regrinds. If I could do regrinds myself the way I could shorten a blade then I would, but I understand first hand how not being able to do that mod results in paying someone else to do it, and for the changes on this blade I could see them costing as much as the price increase. So if you look at it as a sort of semi custom job then the price isn't bad as long as that's what you want.
That's exactly how I see this type of thing. Even doing it yourself also increases cost in tools and/or the bits or belts or whatever parts of the tools that wear naturally. These things need to be replaced. So,,, more money. So no matter how you look at it, getting one of these knives will be more expensive by modifying a delica or another model. So what it boils down to, for me anyway is "do I want the knife?" That's what is important to me in these situations. I don't think $100 is too much for the kahr knife even if it is more expensive than a standard Delica. Especially after reading Mr. Janich's explanation of manufacturing issues. So do I want the knife? Yes but I can't get it today. I have to say I'm very intrigued by the idea of a full handled knife with a short, stout blade.
I could do one thing today (and a couple more todays probably :) ) On your line of thinking about a mod job I looked at three knife handles (that I have) I'd like to see a 2.5" blade like is on the Kahr Delica. GB, Stretch, Sage4. I put an approximate 2.5" mark on the blades.
If I were going to mod any of these three knives it would be the Sage4. Stretch SB? NO! It's a sprint. If I wanted to do it to the Stretch I'd either buy another one to mod or just buy the Delica. GB? NO! I love the GB as is too much. It would be a nice handle for a short blade though. So modding this knife would follow buying another one first. Nice and strong for self defense. I don't concern myself with self defense though when it comes to knife carry. In the off chance I need to defend myself with a knife I'll have to make due with whatever I'm carrying. That leaves the Sage4. If I were to mod one of these knives I'd pick the Sage4 over the other two anyway regardless of the other reasons NOT to mod the others. The blade is ok on the Sage4 but the handle is really what I love about it. I can't think of a knife handle that fits my hand better. That would leave the question of whether to grind a larger belly or grind the spine down like the Kahr or grind both leaving the shape the same, just shorter. I'd grind the spine.
Since I'm not going to do this to any of these knives I'll not plan any further. It's just an option for anyone who likes the idea of a short, legal, stout blade in a larger handle. Gives different handle options to go with the blade idea. Or if you are a real knife maker, make your own handle as well. :) If I were a real knife maker I'd make a Delica size handle for one of my Manbug blades. :)
Well, based on MJ's background story above and nccole's pics, I broke down an ordered a tan one. It certainly helped that eBay sent me a $20 coupon today (that was a first..., not "eBay bucks" either), and someone had one listed for $85 with free shipping. I figured $65 was a good enough deal, and I was definitely curious about them. Seeing how close they are to stock length helped a lot.
Several reputable eBay sellers have them at $85-90, which is $10-15 less than the major dealers online, in case anyone's interested.
It's better to be good than evil, but one achieves goodness at a terrific cost. ––– Stephen King
