Spyderco locking mechanisms

wquiles · #41

Sonny wrote:Nice knives, Will. How did you "dye" that Royal Purple PM2? And turn that shiny clip to black? Would appreciate some help. My 20CP PM2 looks just like my Mannix2 in M4, and I would prefer black clips instead of SS.
Thanks for your help.
Sonny

Here is the link to the dye job:
http://spyderco.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53494

And the clip is still OEM (bright finish) - it just looks darker due to the angle in that particular picture.

Will

PARATOM · #42

compression lock for me, fast and your fingers always stay out of the way of the closing blade.

willydigger · #43

spydutch wrote:...
I flat out hate back locks. Too bad Spyderco has made/makes so many nice models with them
....

I think this post sums in up pretty well for me. For whatever reason, all the knives that jump out from Spyderco (that I really really like) screw it up with a back lock. I've had a Native 5 for a few weeks. I really dig it, but each time I pull it out I think "this knife would be perfect with a liner lock." In fact I'm pretty sure I would end up hating it, if not for the pivot bushing making it so easy to close.

Again with the Dragonfly. I love size, blade shape, steel, BUT there it is again, the retched back lock.

What is the appeal? Why do the good models have it? :mad:

eneyman · #44

hey willy, I felt the exact same way about the massad ayoob sprint.. an amazing self defense inspired blade with a sluggish backlock design with overly strong detent, preventing quick open.

Blerv · #45

Did you clean and oil your Ayoob? Mine was stiff but now is buttery like a Sage. Quick too.

APS · #46

willydigger wrote: What is the appeal? Why do the good models have it? :mad:

What's so bad about the backlock?

willydigger · #47

APS wrote:What's so bad about the backlock?

IMO, the back lock is slow and tight. It takes unnecessary force to flick it open compared to a compression, liner, axis, all? other locks. It takes unnecessary force to close. Speaking specifically to the Dragonfly and other non-pivot bushing back locks. It takes that extra flip forward. That's more of a secondary complaint since my preferred lock (liner) also takes some manipulation.

What is the advantage over the liner or compression? Cheaper to produce, easier to design? IMO when the liner lock was invented, the back lock should have been retired or reserved for collector pieces for the nostalgic. The tiny liner lock of the Sage is perfect. The PM2, (though IMO the compression is a little tricky for a lefty) is also good. I can't see why the back lock and Spyderco seem to be so connected.

I can't help but think how much better their most popular knives would be with a better lock (anything but back lock).

Caly, Native, Dragonfly, Chapparal, Endura, Delica, all have back locks. Looking over the 2012 catalog, I would say the majority are back lock with a sprinkle of better locks mixed in.

My first Spyderco was the Persistence. Near perfect (I can say that about all the Spyderco's). It lacked two things I wanted. Made in USA and a finger choil. As a trade off, I purchased the Native 5 (again near perfect). I gained the USA and choil, but just like Superman with his Kryptonite, the Native 5 had the back lock. I live with it, and I've just re-purchased the Dragonfly G10 in spite of the back lock, but in a perfect world both would have a liner lock.

I suppose I'm in the minority since Spyderco is doing well and I would assume their marketing team would advise if back locks were dragging them down. It would just be nice to see a compression Dragonfly or liner lock Native. Maybe a smaller PM2. :D

Sorry for the long post, it's just a pet peeve.

Blerv · #48

Lockbacks have a better self-close than all the locks I know of. This makes them safer than most. They also wear MUCH better than liner locks and are typicially stronger per design while being fully ambidextrous.

They have a stiffer detent/self-close range but once the backspring is compressed they fly open fine. If they don't you are experiencing a tight pivot or drag someplace which can happen with all lock designs.

There really isn't a "better" lock as they are all different. Even the fabled Axis can suffer from rattling and failed omega springs. While my own preferences have me picking other locks over a lockback (if possible) its by no means an archaic design.

Evil D · #49

Lockbacks are like vanilla ice cream....might not be the most interesting flavor, might not give you goosebumps every time you taste it, but there's still something tasty about it and sometimes simple is good.

willydigger · #50

In my experiences the liner on my Persistence and Cat are plenty strong (especially the Cat), and open super fast. I can't comment or wear, I suppose you are right and I agree regarding true ambidexterity.

I'll disagree on the vanilla, though I see the connection. I don't hate the lock back because it's boring and old, I hate it because IMO the liner is so much better. How about finding a way to reduce the resistance when opening and always using a pivot bushing. Like a vanilla/chocolate swirl?

Blerv · #51

I'm not discrediting your opinion (we all have them). The liner lock is simply not "better", if it was the lockback would have been phased out long ago.

Lockbacks are dang quick. I find they snap fast because the detent has a more gradual process than the ball bearing of a liner lock. It's stiff-to-smooth but never sticky.

Edit: just read the "it's better, IMO" which is quite debatable. The IMO makes all the difference depending on your preferences.

jackknifeh · #52

willydigger wrote:In my experiences the liner on my Persistence and Cat are plenty strong (especially the Cat), and open super fast. I can't comment or wear, I suppose you are right and I agree regarding true ambidexterity.

I'll disagree on the vanilla, though I see the connection. I don't hate the lock back because it's boring and old, I hate it because IMO the liner is so much better. How about finding a way to reduce the resistance when opening and always using a pivot bushing. Like a vanilla/chocolate swirl?

I'm not sure why, but I'm getting the feeling the back lock is not your favorite lock Willy. :) I like to use the liner lock more myself because I'm right handed. I feel for the lefties out there that may have a harder time with a liner or compression lock. Some say it's no problem, just takes getting used to. One thing I have thought about that I like about a back lock is my thumb is on top of the lock bar reducing any chance that it would pop up on poor quality knives. Spydercos and any quality knife won't have that problem of course. My wife is left handed so I've seen times where products are definately designed around right handed people. That's not fair just because we are smarter. :D

Jack

APS · #53

willydigger wrote:IMO, the back lock is slow and tight. It takes unnecessary force to flick it open compared to a compression, liner, axis, all? other locks. It takes unnecessary force to close.

I have found that a lockback can be thumbed or spydie dropped open in less than a second and closed in less than 2 seconds. One can probably improve on that time by say .4 sec with a flick? Since me and my pockets have been stabbed by liner and compression locks that have opened when I didn't want them to, the additional spring tension on a lockback is why I prefer them over the saved .4 sec.

Sht · #54

I play withy knives all the time & the only one that has developed vertical play was my Tasman( my only lockback). I have not written them off yet but Im not running out to buy more. I'd like to see if the higher end knives like native 5 & sage 4 will holdup better.

Blerv · #55

Sht wrote:I play withy knives all the time & the only one that has developed vertical play was my Tasman( my only lockback). I have not written them off yet but Im not running out to buy more. I'd like to see if the higher end knives like native 5 & sage 4 will holdup better.

Vertical play is common for lockbacks. FRN unlined knives have a tad more play in general. A nuance of the design, not always present but more accepted than other designs when the blade rests on a stop pin.

jackknifeh · #56

Blerv wrote:Vertical play is common for lockbacks. FRN unlined knives have a tad more play in general. A nuance of the design, not always present but more accepted than other designs when the blade rests on a stop pin.

The Chaparral has a "stop pin" inside the pivot area. It is positioned in a grove in the tang and I believe it's purpose is to stop the vertical play lockbacks are prone to. I think that's right. I know the pin is there but may be wrong about it's purpose.

Jack

Farmer Brown · #57

Compression Lock.

Simple and strong, barely any moving parts.

quinoa · #58

Compression lock A+. It's why my next spydie will be the superleaf. After the Meercat of course which has a unique locking mechanism and is the reason I want one. The Roller Ball lock is nice too though I saw a case where the cage broke. I am not a fan of liner/frame locks and will continue to avoid them. The Bolt lock on the Sage 3 is 3rd favorite.

jackknifeh · #59

Just in case it hasn't been mentioned I'd like to mention the ball bearing lock. I really feel safe with this lock. It will not fail as long as the lock is engaged properly (like any lock) with no sand or something in there. It may not be the easiest to release but it is definately not hard even when you use it for the first time. After a little practice it's VERY easy and is like second nature for me and many others. Of course, some may not like it.

We talk about locks and ease of opening and closing but what is really important? I think the two most important things are the fact that the folding knife is capable of being stored in a pocket with out a sheath and that it won't close accidentally (due to design and strength). Those two things are essential. The one hand operation I think would come third. When working there have been so many times I've needed to have a knife in hand while holding something still with the other hand. The other stuff that makes one lock more desirable to me or someone else is definately the fluff. Not to discount fluff, I love fluff. The guy who doesn't like backlocks (don't remember your ID, sorry. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE! :D ) still uses knives with it because of the other aspects of a knife. That's cool. The absolute MOST important thing about a knife is how you like the performance once it's open and locked IMO. I know, I'm stating the obvious.

Jack

willydigger · #60

jackknifeh wrote:...

We talk about locks and ease of opening and closing but what is really important? I think the two most important things are the fact that the folding knife is capable of being stored in a pocket with out a sheath and that it won't close accidentally (due to design and strength). Those two things are essential. The one hand operation I think would come third. When working there have been so many times I've needed to have a knife in hand while holding something still with the other hand. The other stuff that makes one lock more desirable to me or someone else is definately the fluff. Not to discount fluff, I love fluff. The guy who doesn't like backlocks (don't remember your ID, sorry. YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE! :D ) still uses knives with it because of the other aspects of a knife. That's cool. The absolute MOST important thing about a knife is how you like the performance once it's open and locked IMO. I know, I'm stating the obvious.

Jack

For the most part I agree. I think most locks take care of issue 1 and 2 (pocket carry and protection from closing). For the most part a slip joint is all that's really required. The extra protection from a full lock doesn't have to be super strong IMO. A thin liner lock like the Sage 1 is just as effective as the stout back lock of the Native 5. So for me the choice of lock starts at fluff. I think ease of use and fun fill the fluff category. The back lock fails compared to liner and the compression (which is likely the most fun).

I've read posts about steel, fit and finish, ergo's, etc. and they are compelling arguments (ultimately winning arguments considering I own two back locks). Thinking back I think it was Sal who put me on the right track with knife decisions. That said, no matter what, I continue to feel the Native is flawed.

Fortunately for Spyderco, all other knife manufacturers that I've looked at for an alternative are way off. I'll continue to settle and wait for that holy grail (the Native 5 with liner/compression).