The blurry line of fakes, clones, copies and knock-offs?

[Azwaiian]

I also have to say, I can never understand why some people come to this Forum and insult the brand?! It just never, ever makes sense to me! I think it is so obvious what a fake is, and when something is a fake. Infact, just ask a child, yep, even they know the difference between a fake and an original.

Don't think so, give them a GI Joe ripoff and tell them it's an authentic GI Joe and look at the child's reaction!

I dunno, just saying.

[Blerv]

Another way to look at is:

"Spyderco employs _____ people while providing good business to ______ makers worldwide and countless products for a loyal consumer base. How many do you help?"

[Heespharm]

Like I had said earlier, this knife was gifted to me. I would not have spent one thin dime on a knife like this. Unlike you (no offense) I am deeply concerned with "copies."

Yeah I bought it just out of curiosity just to see how it compares to my sebenza... Hands down it does not and is now in my pile of rejects I give out to friends...

To me a knife is a tool... Just like a craftsman screw driver there are a lot of copies but nothing works like a craftsman... In the I'm just concerned I have the right tool for me... I understand some ppl don't make enough money to buy nice things so I have no problem with copying designs... Of course then again I don't own the copyrights...

I think in the end I agree with you tho... I am abhorrently against copies sold as the genuine article... That's just dishonest practice!

[Bluntrauma]

I understand your thoughts on this but if everyone copied others designs it could dramatically hurt the original designers product. I don't think there are near as many knife enthusiasts as there are general consumers. That point aside, I am concerned for the person who buys said knife and thinks they have a quality product that they can depend on.

One night I was checking Ebay out and saw a Caly III with 30 seconds left to bid on it. I did the stupidest thing possible, I bid on it without checking it thoroughly. I won and lost at the same time because it was in fact a fake.

Luckily I wasn't out much money. What arrived was a complete theft of design right down to the bug on the blade. Obviously visual differences from the original but a complete robbery of a Spyderco design.

I was mad but mainly mad at myself. I always check out sellers and items before making a purchase. That's what happens when you get stupid and greedy and think you can snag a 100.00 knife for 10 bucks. I got what I deserved.

Some time later I was using the knife and the pivot came loos and the blade came out of the handle. I was fortunate not to cut myself badly. I was aware of what I had and was careful because I expected a failure. Had I not known better it might have turned out differently.

I put the knife back together, threw it in the drawer and haven't pulled it out again except to take this picture.

How could this not piss anyone off?

[Pinetreebbs]

Isn't it satisfying that:

• The Spyderco Factory is maxed out in this time of tight jobs :)
• We have a great variety of Spyderco knives at several price points
• There are people in other countries working for Spyderco enjoying the benefit of their business ethics
• There are factories in China making things we want to buy rather than weapons
• Relations with countries with which we trade are always better than with those that we do not, regardless of how we as individuals may feel about an individual country

All those products people buy from China allows China to loan the USA money so we can spend more than we are making. If that bothers you, and it should, take out that anger on the folks that live in Washington DC not Spyderco. :mad:

As for knockoffs and copies, they are almost universally inferior to the original. Even if they are equal to the original, anyone that makes, promotes or excuses them in any way is going to feel dirty because they are dirty. Blaming Spyderco for having some knives made in China is only deflecting blame and an attempt to excuse thievery.

[phillipsted]

Isn't it satisfying that:

• The Spyderco Factory is maxed out in this time of tight jobs :)
• We have a great variety of Spyderco knives at several price points
• There are people in other countries working for Spyderco enjoying the benefit of their business ethics
• There are factories in China making things we want to buy rather than weapons
• Relations with countries with which we trade are always better than with those that we do not, regardless of how we as individuals may feel about an individual country

Hear, hear, Pinetreebbs!

I would also add that it is satisfying that:

• The owners and workers at Spyderco are as dedicated to their customers as they are to their craft.
• The owner of Spyderco engages his customer base in intelligent and civil discussions.

Thanks, Sal!

TedP

[kgriggs8]

Thank you Sal for clarifying all those points. I am sorry if I let my emotions do my talking. I, like many others here see our country slowly losing ground and it worries and upsets me knowing that our economic future is perhaps not as bright as it used to be.

I really enjoy most of my Spydercos or I wouldn't be here. I own Byrds and have bought every knife in the Tenacious line so far. I bought most of them as gifts since they were less expensive than a Delica or Endura. I will give the good stuff to people I like or know will take care of it. I give the cheaper Sypdercos to people who always lose knives or don't seem to care of things. I would never give my brother an expensive knife for example because he loses them faster than they can be replaced. There is no point in giving him a $100 knife only to have him lose it. The last knife I gave him was a FFG Delica which he lost within a couple of weeks.

Point is, for people like him, I wouldn't buy him another Delica to replace his lost one. I would buy him something in the $20-30 price range. If Spyderco makes such a knife, I would buy it from them but if they didn't, I would buy some other $20 knife. That is the place for a budget knife.

[sal]

Hi Kgriggs8,

Thanx for getting back to us. I thought I might have scared you off.

Regarding the issue, I should confess that I am a political junky, both Domestic and International. I also should confess that I am more than a little concerned about the direction our country is going, and the direction the world is going.

You are right to be concerned about fakes. They almost put us out of business in the late '09's early 00's. The real solution is to not buy them, but rather difficult given human's addiction to "lower price is better".

Especially when you see threads on forums praising the fake company's (Navy, Bee, etc.) Makes the future look very dark indeed.

We spend thousands of dollars for patents and Trademarks in China and Hong Kong (different), and then many thousands more to raid their factories in China. It's depressing to see the market support them. They justify supporting the thieves (Which is what really irks the Deacon).

I think as you learn more, you will find that Spyderco is one of the good guys in this battle, in any of the arenas. We always extend our best effort to conduct business in an honest, fair and proper manner.

sal

[kgriggs8]

Hi Kgriggs8,

Thanx for getting back to us. I thought I might have scared you off.

sal

not at all. We are on the same team. I was just asking some questions that probably bring up more emotion than facts. I admit I don't know all the Chinese knife companies and probably should not have made assumptions without more info.

I was at my knife dealer store today and he showed me a fake Spyderco Spot. It was a total fake intended to pass itself off as a real Spyderco. I couldn't tell the difference but I have never owned a Spot. I didn't see anything obvious about it that screamed fake. He said he bought it to bring it to Spyderco's attention. He said he emailed you guys about it. He was not trying to sell it or anything, just showed it to me because we got on the topic since it was on my mind recently.

Long story short, I bought an Endura SE because that is one knife that isn't able to be copied yet. I haven't had a full SE knife in a while and they are great. The light weight Spydercos can't be copied in any believable fashion because they would be too heavy or too weak if they tried to make them for $10. I could see a copy of a Manix or a Cara-Cara or something but I don't see a copy of one of the Delica/Endura type knives ever being made because of the weight to strength ratio those knives have.

As far as that knock off Delica I had, I didn't buy it. I found that one in a parking lot and tried to use it at work the next next day. It literally broke into pieces in my hand. I didn't even put that much pressure on the blade yet it snapped the plastic handle and all the parts were in my hand.

I am no newbie and used to have quite a Spyderco collection. I had rare ones that many people here have never heard of. A few of my all time favs are: PE Centofante II, PE Large Caylpso, Ayoob, Shabaria, and G-10 FFG Police from the 1990s.

[Bluntrauma]

I knew I had this somewhere but could not find it when I posted the other day. Best reason to not trust a fake.

[kgriggs8]

What exactly broke on that knife? It looks like the blade is off ( obviously) but I can't tell what part failed.

[Bluntrauma]

The smaller screw that threads into the pivot barrel snapped near the torque head. I heard something hit the table and saw the blade flexing badly to the left. I turned the knife sideways to look down at what had happened and out fell the pivot on the other side along with 2 small washers.

I couldn't help but laugh.

[Pinetreebbs]

The smaller screw that threads into the pivot barrel snapped near the torque head. I heard something hit the table and saw the blade flexing badly to the left. I turned the knife sideways to look down at what had happened and out fell the pivot on the other side along with 2 small washers.

I couldn't help but laugh.

I fixed the picture for you: :D

[Bluntrauma]

I fixed the picture for you: :D

HAHA thanks Pinetreebbs!

[Left Hand Path]

I guess my question is, at what point is it a "fake"? I know it is complicated but would a non-logo Persistance made by the same company in China that makes them for Spyderco be a fake?

I think maybe I am more sensitive about the idea of a 'fake' than others, but my opinion is that there are some knives being sold by some of the biggest knife companies that are basically knockoffs because they copied designs or prominent features from the originators. Spyderco is often copied, and so are others.

I will not buy a knife that, in my judgement, looks like a 'stolen' idea. Obviously this is a very gray area in the world of knives, and quite subjective, but we (I) can only do what we feel is right.

I think that if Spyderco or CRK or ESEE etc creates a design or feature, and another company starts selling a knife that borrows a little too much from it (subjective, I know) then that is not an original design and should not be purchased.

Gotta give credit where credit is due.

I believe that 'wanting to pay less for everything' and 'lower price is better' mentality creates a lot of problems. Everyone wants to get a good value, but I think that buying less and buying quality is the way to go.

[adairjs]

Copyright & intellectual property, a wearyingly complex matter, if for no other reason than that governments are involved...

Anyway, before I ever knew that Spydercos existed and generally carried Bucks, I picked up a Sanrenmu H03. I'll try to attach a photo of it next to a Grasshopper for comparison. Whether this is a case of plagiary, legal imitation or coincidence, I'll not try to guess. My only point in bringing it up is to say that maybe this kind of thing could work in reverse, once in a great while. Other than the steel it is made of (I've read it is 8Cr13MoV (57HRC), but that is not stamped on the blade), I find this to be an excellent little knife. I'm a newcomer to Spyderco collecting and am not terribly knowledgeable about knives, yet, but note these plus marks: screws, not pins; a barrel-lined lanyard hole; excellent & smooth opening resistance; smooth edges on the Spyder, er..., finger hole; well fitting index finger choil and handle shape (for my small/medium sized hand, at least) and (the main reason I bought it) a very well designed bottle opener built into the bottom end of the handle. (This is where somebody will probably tell me that bottle openers are the bane of serious knife people) It is a little bigger than the Grasshopper, but not much. I find, though, that it handles much better. I find the Grasshopper a bit awkward and more than a little dangerous to handle, but that may be because of my clumsiness and arthritis. So, my point in all this? I think this would be a great design for a Spyderco to make. Give it a better quality steel for the blade, maybe make it a lockback. Then again, maybe designing them yourself is half the fun in being a knife company.

adairjs

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[Freman]

Copying the knives has been going on for a long time (copying brand names was popular when German and French knife makers were trying to pass their knives off as the perceived superior Spanish brands).

The Buck 110 is (I'm told) the most copied knife on Earth, and that was mainly by American manufacturers.

I divide it this way.

Counterfeits/fakes. There are knives that are made to look exactly like a Spyderco product including branding, boxes and the like. They are clearly made to deceive people into buying a product they believe to be a Spyderco. These are clearly unethical as is, in my opinion, selling a knife branded as a "Spyderco" that is clearly nothing of the sort.

Copies/replicas. These may be inspired by Spyderco models, but they carry their own brand names and you can be absolutely clear that what you're buying is not a Spyderco. They are, to my mind, akin to the Schrade copies of the Buck, lazy designing, but not as clearly unethical as the fakes.

The Sanrenmu H03 is clearly inspired by Spyderco, or perhaps the Spyderco models that they make/made but it has some obvious differences, as well as being clearly marked as a Sanrenmu knife. Some of the Navy range fit in this category too, although they also make models like the 620 which while echoing a Police shape also lack any distinct Spyderco feature, no Boye dent, no Spydy hole.

On the subject of making replicas, I also see a bit of a fuzzy area with discontinued models. Along with Spyderco models I also like the Cold Steel range, but there are models that they no longer make like the lockback Voyagers that I really like. If I owned a Chinese knife factory (or a knife factory anywhere) I'd ask Cold Steel if I could make replicas of those discontinued knives, using the best steel I had access to (in China probably 9Cr18MoV) with the best heat treatment I could get (trying to get close to the blend of toughness and hardness that you'd expect from those knives) and of course paying royalties to the original manufacturer. There would be obviously be unique branding to ensure no possibility of identity confusion. I don't own such a factory of course, and it'd be a whole lot cheaper and easier to find a second hand Voyager X2 or Vaquero Grande on eBay, but one can dream.