After reading this fun thread, i can't help but wonder. stanlyonjr, where is the CPU, the monitor, the mouse and the keyboard that you are using to express your feeling against foreign made products are actually made from?
So what's your point to speak against others while you are doing exactly the same thing, I'm lost
Gayle Bradley M4
Oh shoot, should I use Hershey's syrup instead?Sequimite wrote:Personally, I can't understand combining Nutella with peanut butter. Nutella with graham crackers, on apple slices, those things make sense.
And by the way, Nutella is a foreign product. I can hear the rustling of layoff slips in Hershey Pennsylvania . . .
Nutella is one of those things that scratches the itch just right... nothing else like it... Nutella... je t'aime.
Latest :spyder: -- Blurple Para2
Stan,
I am a European and proud of it. Applying your reasoning, would you recommend me not to buy any Spydercos anymore, not even the Golden ones, since none are currently made in Europe (a very few were so in the past)? After all, there are some pretty good European brands as well.
I just use this as an example how limiting regional thinking is.
I am a European and proud of it. Applying your reasoning, would you recommend me not to buy any Spydercos anymore, not even the Golden ones, since none are currently made in Europe (a very few were so in the past)? After all, there are some pretty good European brands as well.
I just use this as an example how limiting regional thinking is.
I don't give a s*!& (edited) where it's made as long as it's made well. For every example of something made poorly in a different country, there's something made poorly in the US. The Spyderco Gayle Bradley happens to be something made extremely well in another country. Thinking that we can produce everything we need by ourself in the US is extremely naiive. Where has our oil been coming from for the past 10 years? Where do all computer parts come from? Not only is this "blind patriotism" naiive, it's stupid as well... it's not healthy economics to restrict ourselves from trading with other countries. It reduces competition, fosters unhealthy international relationships, and severely reduces our global economic potential-allowing countries such as China to gain a serious advantage in the world economy. Just my 2 cents, but I'm sick of people saying we need to only buy american. Even the stuff made here, isn't necessarily made of 100% American components. Think that Ford Mustang is made in America? There was an article in Consumer Reports a while ago which tracked the whole chain of where all of the parts came from, final assembly aside I think only around 25% of the parts are made in the US. Same goes for a Spyderco knife, iron probably comes from the Taconite mines of northern Minnesota or the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, but a lot of the more exotic alloying elements in metal are very limited in their distribution in the earth’s crust, and if we want those materials we have to import them, no choice. Without other countries, we would be crippled as a nation. Just saying.
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The Deacon
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- Location: Upstate SC, USA
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I have a modicum of respect for a person whose concern for American jobs made them decide to "buy American" whenever possible. I may think their logic is flawed, but I can respect it, none the less. Same goes for people who, after having family slaughtered by a given nation or group, refuse to buy their wares. On the other hand I have ZERO respect for a two faced hypocrite.
The OP claims, out of one side of his mouth, that his distaste for Taiwan made knives is based on the preservation of American jobs. Yet out of the other has posted in the past that he owns Seki made Spydercos and expressed a desire to have the Military's American steel replaced with Japanese steel. It would appear he feels the jobs of American steel workers are somehow less worthy of protection. In my book, that puts him squarely in "worthy of ZERO respect" category.
The OP claims, out of one side of his mouth, that his distaste for Taiwan made knives is based on the preservation of American jobs. Yet out of the other has posted in the past that he owns Seki made Spydercos and expressed a desire to have the Military's American steel replaced with Japanese steel. It would appear he feels the jobs of American steel workers are somehow less worthy of protection. In my book, that puts him squarely in "worthy of ZERO respect" category.
Paul
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
My Personal Website ---- Beginners Guide to Spyderco Collecting ---- Spydiewiki
Deplorable :p
WTC # 1458 - 1504 - 1508 - Never Forget, Never Forgive!
boy, this really became a tough thread,...
Preface:
I'm not a blind patriot.
I choose to buy american made tools for the most part and when possible. I do this mostly because at some point I decided it was important, the reasons why vary. I don't find vague and simplistic economic arguments compelling--being worried about price and quality alone takes "values" out of the equation. I have "values" and try to bring them into my buying choices when possible. I also believe that the "price" or "cost" elements that go into simple economic explanations should be broadened to include things beyond the exchange of money over the short term. I believe today that the two biggest cost elements that aren't brought into simple economics are:
1) human rights (China doesn't care, investment bankers don't care)
2) environmental impact (China doesn't care, investment bankers don't care)
(I don't know enough about Taiwan to say whether the Taiwanese care or not)
Economics doesn't like to talk about things like human rights because they can't really be quantified, so economists leave them out of the equation. Similarly, environmental impact makes the math messy. What is the cost of mercury in the ocean and acid rain in Siberia? What is the cost of giving enormous economic and political power to a country that will drive over its own citizens with tanks, forcibly relocate its own citizens, leave injured workers to die on the street, imprison people because of their religion, dump any and everything into the oceans and sky that we all share, invade their neighbors because they can?
I try to throw these factors into the equation when I purchase things, especially the tools that feel like a part of me, for whatever strange reason.
I also care about my neighbors, I care that they have meaningful work. (Furthermore, when they don't have work: my tax dollars are spent differently, my property values go down, my insurance costs go up, etc, etc)
From time to time, I buy knives made in other countries. They are made in countries that compete fairly with the one that I care most about. Their workers aren't left to die in the street. They have environmental and labor regulations similar to or more stringent than our own. For example, I just ordered the made in Japan Kuhkri. I have a few Fallkniven knives from Sweden--the TK3 lockback may be the finest knife I own. I am happy with those purchases. I'm happier about buying the P'kal, Manix2, Leafstorm, UKpen, Mules 2,3,6, Woodcraft mule, etc, because those purchases help to ensure that someone's neighbor in Golden, CO can feed his or her children, take them to the doctor when they're sick, and maybe buy a house. I don't own a single hand tool made in China because every time I touched it I would think about poison in my ocean, Tiananmen Square, and african genocide.
Does this make me a hypocrite because my computer and TV were made in China? I guess maybe it does, but I do the best I can.
Preface:
I'm not a blind patriot.
I choose to buy american made tools for the most part and when possible. I do this mostly because at some point I decided it was important, the reasons why vary. I don't find vague and simplistic economic arguments compelling--being worried about price and quality alone takes "values" out of the equation. I have "values" and try to bring them into my buying choices when possible. I also believe that the "price" or "cost" elements that go into simple economic explanations should be broadened to include things beyond the exchange of money over the short term. I believe today that the two biggest cost elements that aren't brought into simple economics are:
1) human rights (China doesn't care, investment bankers don't care)
2) environmental impact (China doesn't care, investment bankers don't care)
(I don't know enough about Taiwan to say whether the Taiwanese care or not)
Economics doesn't like to talk about things like human rights because they can't really be quantified, so economists leave them out of the equation. Similarly, environmental impact makes the math messy. What is the cost of mercury in the ocean and acid rain in Siberia? What is the cost of giving enormous economic and political power to a country that will drive over its own citizens with tanks, forcibly relocate its own citizens, leave injured workers to die on the street, imprison people because of their religion, dump any and everything into the oceans and sky that we all share, invade their neighbors because they can?
I try to throw these factors into the equation when I purchase things, especially the tools that feel like a part of me, for whatever strange reason.
I also care about my neighbors, I care that they have meaningful work. (Furthermore, when they don't have work: my tax dollars are spent differently, my property values go down, my insurance costs go up, etc, etc)
From time to time, I buy knives made in other countries. They are made in countries that compete fairly with the one that I care most about. Their workers aren't left to die in the street. They have environmental and labor regulations similar to or more stringent than our own. For example, I just ordered the made in Japan Kuhkri. I have a few Fallkniven knives from Sweden--the TK3 lockback may be the finest knife I own. I am happy with those purchases. I'm happier about buying the P'kal, Manix2, Leafstorm, UKpen, Mules 2,3,6, Woodcraft mule, etc, because those purchases help to ensure that someone's neighbor in Golden, CO can feed his or her children, take them to the doctor when they're sick, and maybe buy a house. I don't own a single hand tool made in China because every time I touched it I would think about poison in my ocean, Tiananmen Square, and african genocide.
Does this make me a hypocrite because my computer and TV were made in China? I guess maybe it does, but I do the best I can.
Wow, I can't believe I just spent valuable morning minutes going through this entire thread. To me, this forum has been a welcome break from stresses of the day; unfortunately, that did not happen this morning. Excuse me now as I have to make a peanut butter and jelly sandwich for my son's school lunch. Really. :)
However, before I go, let me leave you with a closing thought that struck me many years ago when I read it from the steps of the National Archives:
"What is past is prologue."
In the context of this thread, look well into the past to learn how we got here. In my opinion, American companies did not create need for foreign manufacturing, but rather its necessity was created for them.
Regards,
Ira
However, before I go, let me leave you with a closing thought that struck me many years ago when I read it from the steps of the National Archives:
"What is past is prologue."
In the context of this thread, look well into the past to learn how we got here. In my opinion, American companies did not create need for foreign manufacturing, but rather its necessity was created for them.
Regards,
Ira
D3 CE, FG D4 CE Krein'd, Blue D4 FFG, Pink D4, Caly3 SE, USN E4 CE, Pink E4 CE, E4 ZDP-189 SE, FG E4 CE, E4 G10 FFG, Tenacious SE, Para SE, Para D2, Millie D2, ATR SE, Orange Assist I, Blue Rescue 93, Khukuri, Barong, Meerkat, Ladybug H1 SE, Manix 2 XHP, Rock Salt, S90V Mule Krein'd, JD Smith Sprint, Brown Matriarch SE, Poliwog, Stretch CE, Millie M4/Ti, Rock Lobster, Zulu, Rescue 79, D'Allara Rescue, LadyHawk SE, Lum Tanto Sprint, Dragonfly G10, Chaparral, Sage I, Caspian, Gayle Bradley
That (the whole quote) was well said and pretty much how I feel as well. When and where I can buy USA, I do...2cha wrote:... Does this make me a hypocrite because my computer and TV were made in China? I guess maybe it does, but I do the best I can.
I like China for their cultural history. I've been to the Great Wall and the Imperial Palace and the Temple of Heaven and they are amazing. But I hate their current polito-cracy(?) and the fact we owe them like $790 TRILLION (or whatever it is) scares the bejeasers out of me.
Will that stop me from buying a great Spyderco product that is made there? It has so far. But it's Spyderco's only offshore mfg I avoid. I do buy Spydies made in Japan, Taiwan (and any other country) without hesitation. As Taz said, Sal runs a great company that benefits America and Americans. That's good enough for me.
So I guess I'm a hypocrite too but as 2cha says, I do what I can....
Sorry my initial post ignored that facet of the OP. I only spoke to the value of the Bradley folder, which is OUTSTANDING!
Ken
玉鋼
Only a forum like this would give so much positive insightful feedback to a OP using brass knuckles. It's a testament to the company's people and products.
I haven't done a recent tally but there are upwards of 140 models currently being built all over the world. If you don't like the Bradley it still leaves about 139 other ones to choose from. You can even sort by build location on the website.
I doubt a lesson in economics or national hypocrisy will help in this case. PB&J has never been such a tasty alternative. :)
Frankly I've seen what Spyderco can make in China with a street price of $30 (Tenacious). For a $100 Taiwan M4 knife with carbon fiber slabs the competition should be terrified. The liners are the thickest I have ever seen and most companies won't give you S30v for $100 let alone M4.
The alternative is to start your own company and compete. Honestly, it's the most American thing you can do at this point.
I haven't done a recent tally but there are upwards of 140 models currently being built all over the world. If you don't like the Bradley it still leaves about 139 other ones to choose from. You can even sort by build location on the website.
I doubt a lesson in economics or national hypocrisy will help in this case. PB&J has never been such a tasty alternative. :)
Frankly I've seen what Spyderco can make in China with a street price of $30 (Tenacious). For a $100 Taiwan M4 knife with carbon fiber slabs the competition should be terrified. The liners are the thickest I have ever seen and most companies won't give you S30v for $100 let alone M4.
The alternative is to start your own company and compete. Honestly, it's the most American thing you can do at this point.
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CanisMajor
- Member
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- Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2009 9:53 am
- Location: USA
JNewell that coffee joke definitely made me laugh, thanks for that.
Canis
Canis
Dare. Risk. Dream.
"Your body may be gone, I'm gonna carry you in.
In my head, in my heart, in my soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both live again.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Don't think so."
- Modest Mouse "Ocean Breathes Salty"
"Your body may be gone, I'm gonna carry you in.
In my head, in my heart, in my soul.
And maybe we'll get lucky and we'll both live again.
Well I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Don't think so."
- Modest Mouse "Ocean Breathes Salty"
Reflecting on things now, I think the main point of contention here for the OP more so than any economic or patriotic concerns, is the stigma that is still present on products produced in Taiwan
I guess when you tell someone a product is made in Taiwan you still sort of get that squinty eyed look, like they're remembering the crappy toys that were made there when they were kids.
It's kind of funny actually, the Japanese have a great reputation for building many quality products now, but it was not always so. After WWII everyone knew japanese products were junk, but quality continued to improve as did the wages of the work force, so Taiwan kind of became the new Japan
unskilled labor at cheap prices, thats when I was a kid back in the 80's.
But today's Taiwan is not the one you remember back in the 80's I guess you could say China and India are the new Taiwan and Japan
Still the maker that Sal has found in Taiwan is suberb even by Taiwanese standards you really cant compare they're knives to the Taiwanese mfg knives from other companies that you've experienced. It's also allowed Spyderco to produce many great products we may have never seen in their present form like the Sage project.
South Korea has also emerged from it's past as the mfg of low quality garbage, Samsung or Sony? Hyundai or Toyota? Korean products are very competitive with their Japanese counterparts
I guess it will take Taiwan much longer to break free of the stigma associated with the past
I guess when you tell someone a product is made in Taiwan you still sort of get that squinty eyed look, like they're remembering the crappy toys that were made there when they were kids.
It's kind of funny actually, the Japanese have a great reputation for building many quality products now, but it was not always so. After WWII everyone knew japanese products were junk, but quality continued to improve as did the wages of the work force, so Taiwan kind of became the new Japan
unskilled labor at cheap prices, thats when I was a kid back in the 80's.
But today's Taiwan is not the one you remember back in the 80's I guess you could say China and India are the new Taiwan and Japan
Still the maker that Sal has found in Taiwan is suberb even by Taiwanese standards you really cant compare they're knives to the Taiwanese mfg knives from other companies that you've experienced. It's also allowed Spyderco to produce many great products we may have never seen in their present form like the Sage project.
South Korea has also emerged from it's past as the mfg of low quality garbage, Samsung or Sony? Hyundai or Toyota? Korean products are very competitive with their Japanese counterparts
I guess it will take Taiwan much longer to break free of the stigma associated with the past