Martial Arts Experiences Discussion Thread

[James Y]

BJJ Coach Sued For Millions Breaks His Silence

What a tragic situation for everyone involved. It makes me glad that I no longer teach martial arts.



Here is the footage showing the moment the injury happened:



Jim

[Naperville]

For quite some time society was very litigious. Either I am not paying attention or I just don't notice it anymore. I am sure that the courts are packed with litigants trying to cheat everyone out of their hard earned cash.

Many states and large cities are against self defense. A decade ago, I was shocked when 5 guys were pushing me around and then aggressively pursuing full contact, when all that I asked was did any of them know where the 43rd Street Gang hung out. It was 100% fine for them to push me around, grab me, strike at me, but heaven forbid I try to get them to stop. You know the story, I drew to my hip just to get them off of me. One of the neighbors threatened to burn down the building that I lived in and alluded to their possible involvement in carrying out the task....this was just for double parking for 5 minutes in front of my home, something done all over the city of Chicago. THUGS RULE CHICAGO. Thugs rule the streets, thugs rule the city. Get in their way and get punished. You cannot win, so we sold the home. I do not prefer to be in a situation where I cannot defend myself. Truth is, if you had to live in a neighborhood where self defense was part of your everyday PLAN would you live there? ForgetAboutIt.

Too many punks, and I don't want to put up 10 security cameras, get vicious dogs, firearms, jeez it's like developing a battle plan for living with gangs and neighbors that are at war with each other.

At 65, I mostly stay in, don't drive, don't travel, avoid all bars and any activities where trouble may be found. Part of it is age, cash to participate, but you rarely get into trouble by staying home. I don't want the drama. Winners win, get arrested and end up in court. Police just look to see who has won the first round, not who is right in defending themselves. It isn't worth it.

I'm over trying to get people not to throw food in public, not talk during movies, cut me off for doing the speed limit...

It's when you go out that trouble finds you if you go out where people may be drinking, doing drugs, carousing, acting the fool.

As far as martial arts go, I like serious martial arts. I want the facts on how to persuade with deconflict, less than lethal methods, how to detain/hold legally, and completely demolish up to 4 people as fast as possible if I need to.

[Scandi Grind]

The idea of learning self-defense is to preserve life; I also assume that includes quality of life.

Jim

This. This idea has been very important to me as I engage in learning martial arts. I had to puzzle out for myself what I thought was the practical limit of how "hard" to make training, and really it is an ongoing decision to address as I progress, not a one time decision. The important thing that I decided though is that matial arts should be healthy, not harmful to my body. The question was could you learn to fight effectively without putting your health at unreasonable risk, or did you have to do hard style martial arts training to be effective. I finally felt confident that it was possible to learn viable, real fighting arts, NOT sport fighting, in a safe constructive way after reading enough of Kevin Secours. He teaches Combat Systema, has experience with several other martial arts as well, and has been in many, many real engagements throughout a professional security career. One of the things that caused him converge on Systema after years of practicing other arts was the fact that it had a health focus. He believed that martial arts should not harm the body to develop proper skills, because this actually is counter productive to your ability to defend yourself at any time. I agreed with this sentiment, but by being a successful hand to hand sercurity proffesional, he proved that it was possible to be able to learn effective real world fighting without undue risk.

Now to a certain extent I was forced into a health focused martial arts strategy. I have health problems that prevent me from even being able to practice hard style martial arts. Trying to use these styles wouldn't work very well for me in an actual encounter either because I will burn all my energy too quickly. This has led me and my brother to focus primarily on Chinese internal martial arts, specifically Bagua Zhang and Tai Chi Quan. We like a lot of the practice sequences from Bagua, and the sensitivity focus of Tai Chi. While we are certainly just touching the surface of these arts so far, not only have they been compatible with our health limitations, they have actually provided health benefits. While I would not fault someone else for practicing a harder style martial art if they were capble of doing so, and there are certain benefits to hard style, for us I believe we are finding our ideal path.

There is still always the lingering question, is my fighting art good enough, but in the end what I always ask myself is, "Am I getting better?" I want to improve as quickly as possible, sure, but I also have a life and health problems to attend to, so the most important question is merely, "Am I improving?" Looking back, I can say with confidence that I certainly haven't gotten worse at fighting. Perhaps every martial artist has a fear of not being good enough should the time come to put his art into use in real life. The conclusion I have come to is that I can not change how good I am at this very moment, but I can always keep improving, so that is the simple goal, just keep improving. It's kinda like what they say about planting trees. The best time to plant one is five years ago, the second best time is today. Time to start growing.

[James Y]

The idea of learning self-defense is to preserve life; I also assume that includes quality of life.

Jim

This. This idea has been very important to me as I engage in learning martial arts. I had to puzzle out for myself what I thought was the practical limit of how "hard" to make training, and really it is an ongoing decision to address as I progress, not a one time decision. The important thing that I decided though is that matial arts should be healthy, not harmful to my body. The question was could you learn to fight effectively without putting your health at unreasonable risk, or did you have to do hard style martial arts training to be effective. I finally felt confident that it was possible to learn viable, real fighting arts, NOT sport fighting, in a safe constructive way after reading enough of Kevin Secours. He teaches Combat Systema, has experience with several other martial arts as well, and has been in many, many real engagements throughout a professional security career. One of the things that caused him converge on Systema after years of practicing other arts was the fact that it had a health focus. He believed that martial arts should not harm the body to develop proper skills, because this actually is counter productive to your ability to defend yourself at any time. I agreed with this sentiment, but by being a successful hand to hand sercurity proffesional, he proved that it was possible to be able to learn effective real world fighting without undue risk.

Now to a certain extent I was forced into a health focused martial arts strategy. I have health problems that prevent me from even being able to practice hard style martial arts. Trying to use these styles wouldn't work very well for me in an actual encounter either because I will burn all my energy too quickly. This has led me and my brother to focus primarily on Chinese internal martial arts, specifically Bagua Zhang and Tai Chi Quan. We like a lot of the practice sequences from Bagua, and the sensitivity focus of Tai Chi. While we are certainly just touching the surface of these arts so far, not only have they been compatible with our health limitations, they have actually provided health benefits. While I would not fault someone else for practicing a harder style martial art if they were capble of doing so, and there are certain benefits to hard style, for us I believe we are finding our ideal path.

There is still always the lingering question, is my fighting art good enough, but in the end what I always ask myself is, "Am I getting better?" I want to improve as quickly as possible, sure, but I also have a life and health problems to attend to, so the most important question is merely, "Am I improving?" Looking back, I can say with confidence that I certainly haven't gotten worse at fighting. Perhaps every martial artist has a fear of not being good enough should the time come to put his art into use in real life. The conclusion I have come to is that I can not change how good I am at this very moment, but I can always keep improving, so that is the simple goal, just keep improving. It's kinda like what they say about planting trees. The best time to plant one is five years ago, the second best time is today. Time to start growing.

Thank you for your detailed sharing!

Having sparred a few decades ago with a combative-oriented Bagua practitioner (I believe he became a teacher), I can attest to its effectiveness, IF the person was properly trained in its practical application.

I used to train very hard, in different martial arts and combat sports (pre-MMA) for many years. The hard training did develop a fighting spirit that can be difficult to replicate without having endured it.

However, there were some harsh training methods that I quit doing over the years; some not too long ago. Some out of necessity, and some due to a shift in focus. There are also aspects of my training that I cannot do any more. At 62 (even a young 62), it would be dumb to try to train the way I did in my teens, up into my 40s.

When younger, I adapted to different arts very quickly and easily. I could freespar using not only the Karate and kickboxing I learned early on, but also using the different Kung Fu systems as well (Northern Mantis/Tanglang Quan, and Choy Lee Fut).

When it comes to actual, unavoidable self-defense, I do not consider using physical skills as applying a martial art; I consider it the use of violence. I learned early on that there is the art aspect, and then there's the reality. You apply practical aspects adapted from your art, but make them simplistic and nasty, with an attitude to match. Skills and strategies that you can use regardless of age (for the most part). There is a completely different mindset between using your martial art for self-defense, and having to use necessary violence to end a threat. At least that is ny viewpoint; YMMV.

If you destroy your body with excessive training, you won't be able to function effectively when you may need it the most; as you get older.

Most young guys watch combat sports and think they're the ultimate in self-defense, never even considering the fact that the UFC fighters they worship, and they themselves, are going to change as they get older. Many of the popular professional fighters are showing clear signs of CTE. There have been former pro fighters (retired boxers, and some MMA fighters) who could no longer care for themselves as they got older (some not even very old), due to CTE.

I'm just thankful that I didn't take too much head trauma over the years.

Jim

[Naperville]

OT

"The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing"

Self defense? Stopping crime? and you do not hold a badge, well there are different rules for you I am afraid. Certain people have more rights than you and they hold badges.

I support some vigilantism, not quite mob rule, I am against that as it spirals out of control. If you did not start trouble and are defending yourself, your family or your property I used to feel like you get 100 round FREE white box of ammo delivered to you along with a proclamation for taking down bad guys/gals. But liberal society does not feel that way...so DO NOT expect me to intervene on your behalf. I'll video tape, upload your extermination, and have a good laugh.

My record is supposed to be totally clean now and I plan to keep it that way.

[Scandi Grind]

so DO NOT expect me to intervene on your behalf. I'll video tape, upload your extermination, and have a good laugh.

The first part of this makes sense to me. I understand why it isn't safe to try helping people anymore, because quite frankly the person you help often ends up your enemy in court. The second part doesn't make sense. It is one of the things that really ticks my mom off when a bunch of people video tape something horrible happen then post it all over their social media like "Look at me, I witnessed something awful, be entertained!" Sometimes that's not what people are doing, but much of the time it is. Maybe that isn't exactly what you really feel like. I understand your frustration with the circumstances that surround self defense, but still that doesn't make entertainment of other peoples calamity, or at least it shouldn't. And that includes the people who are part of the problem. The fact is we are all part of the problem, even those who are actively trying to make things better in one way or another. Some will disagree with that last point and I'm OK with that. However, I think this should make enough sense to most people. While somebody may not deserve your help in a crisis, they probably don't deserve your scorn either, and your not in a position to judge if they do most of the time anyway. No matter what, violence done should not be made light of, it is not entertainment.

[SpyderEdgeForever]

How about that Butter Bean guy who weighs almost 400 pounds and is a world champion boxer and MMA guy? That is amazing.

[Naperville]

so DO NOT expect me to intervene on your behalf. I'll video tape, upload your extermination, and have a good laugh.

The first part of this makes sense to me. I understand why it isn't safe to try helping people anymore, because quite frankly the person you help often ends up your enemy in court. The second part doesn't make sense. It is one of the things that really ticks my mom off when a bunch of people video tape something horrible happen then post it all over their social media like "Look at me, I witnessed something awful, be entertained!" Sometimes that's not what people are doing, but much of the time it is. Maybe that isn't exactly what you really feel like. I understand your frustration with the circumstances that surround self defense, but still that doesn't make entertainment of other peoples calamity, or at least it shouldn't. And that includes the people who are part of the problem. The fact is we are all part of the problem, even those who are actively trying to make things better in one way or another. Some will disagree with that last point and I'm OK with that. However, I think this should make enough sense to most people. While somebody may not deserve your help in a crisis, they probably don't deserve your scorn either, and your not in a position to judge if they do most of the time anyway. No matter what, violence done should not be made light of, it is not entertainment.

Well, I will not be laughing at the person being attacked, UNLESS they are part of the problem.

I'll be having a good laugh at the people that kvetch about self defense, the liberal justice system(police, judges, ...), and people who would save them in time of need. I finally got my record expunged and there is a 1 in 1 million chance that I am going to help anyone.

Shhhhhh... I'll let you in on a lil secret. I can help you. I choose not to for my own sake as society likes to criminally charge me for winning against perps. I've won every fight I've been in since I was 16 and while there have not been many fights I manage to hold my own. But the fact is, losers go to the ER and winners go to court to be arraigned. I choose to ignore society. I stay home.

[James Y]

so DO NOT expect me to intervene on your behalf. I'll video tape, upload your extermination, and have a good laugh.

The first part of this makes sense to me. I understand why it isn't safe to try helping people anymore, because quite frankly the person you help often ends up your enemy in court. The second part doesn't make sense. It is one of the things that really ticks my mom off when a bunch of people video tape something horrible happen then post it all over their social media like "Look at me, I witnessed something awful, be entertained!" Sometimes that's not what people are doing, but much of the time it is. Maybe that isn't exactly what you really feel like. I understand your frustration with the circumstances that surround self defense, but still that doesn't make entertainment of other peoples calamity, or at least it shouldn't. And that includes the people who are part of the problem. The fact is we are all part of the problem, even those who are actively trying to make things better in one way or another. Some will disagree with that last point and I'm OK with that. However, I think this should make enough sense to most people. While somebody may not deserve your help in a crisis, they probably don't deserve your scorn either, and your not in a position to judge if they do most of the time anyway. No matter what, violence done should not be made light of, it is not entertainment.

Well, I will not be laughing at the person being attacked, UNLESS they are part of the problem.

I'll be having a good laugh at the people that kvetch about self defense, the liberal justice system(police, judges, ...), and people who would save them in time of need. I finally got my record expunged and there is a 1 in 1 million chance that I am going to help anyone.

Shhhhhh... I'll let you in on a lil secret. I can help you. I choose not to for my own sake as society likes to criminally charge me for winning against perps. I've won every fight I've been in since I was 16 and while there have not been many fights I manage to hold my own. But the fact is, losers go to the ER and winners go to court to be arraigned. I choose to ignore society. I stay home.

The problem is not only if YOU potentially injure an attacker(s). What if you try and help another person and are seriously injured or killed? To what degree are the person(s) you helped going to contribute to your medical or funeral expenses?

It sounds terrible, but my first priority in self-defense is to myself (because I have no wife or children). None of my relatives are my responsibility to care for anymore; I fulfilled my duty of being my mom's sole caregiver for almost a decade ... something I don't regret, but I will never sacrifice like that for anybody else.

What did that last paragraph have to do with self-defense? A lot. There is really no advantage to white knighting, especially nowadays. I can't say that if a baby was getting snatched that I wouldn't take some action, if I'm in a position to do so. But more realistically, I will use my phone to call the police.

To be truthful, I did protect a woman once from a guy she didn't know who was following and harassing her, but that was back around 2004. And there was no physicality involved.

Interesting that society gives two different narratives. If a man doesn't white knight for any stranger, especially for a woman, he is a coward. OTOH, if he defends others successfully, he's too violent and must be arrested, and may become a nationwide meme of what's wrong with society. If he gets seriously injured or killed trying to save a stranger, he might be called a hero in the news for a day, then is forgotten; and the killer, if caught, will probably get a slap on the wrist.

Jim

[Naperville]

I agree James!

And to that I say, STAY HOME FOLKS. Be with your family. Be kind to your family. Try to work out everything with family. Have a few excellent friends. I've been lucky to meet a few people that were really nice to me. Most people on the Internet are cruel or crude, and I feel that way about the public in general.

I was in tears tonight as I listened to some Qobuz music by KT Tunstall, thinking about everyone in my family is G.O.N.E. and there was never anyone that helped me like my family.

[James Y]

"You Have to Put Yourself First"

This is 100% spot on:



Jim

[James Y]

Olympic Boxer Quit BJJ After This Happened



No doubt, grappling arts like BJJ cause a lot of wear and tear on the body.

When I trained BJJ back in my mid-40s, I was lucky that I hadn't suffered any serious injuries. My worst injury was one day while rolling, I was bucked off of my partner, and the little toe on my left foot got bent back so far that the back of my toe touched the instep of my foot. Then that toe was flopping around loosely for awhile. After awhile it turned purple and swelled up, but eventually fully returned to normal.

I was a massage therapist for many years, and I worked on many people who had sports injuries; Judo and BJJ competitors, MMA practitioners, wrestlers, surfers, etc.

Jim

[Naperville]

"You Have to Put Yourself First"

This is 100% spot on:



Jim

I grew up and lived as an athlete for decades just outside of Chicago. I liked watching and attending a few competitions per year in the sports that I was in as a youth, and I always liked certain motor sports, but I never quite got The Fans.

I'd rather do martial arts than watch a Bruce Lee movie. I did it.

I'd rather street race a motorcycle, or take the motorcycle to the race tracks and do my thing, than watch a race on TV. I did it.

I'd rather race a bicycle than watch the Tour de France. I did that too.

I watched a number of teams and athletes. I was never much of a homer, I did not really have a home team for any sports. I watched to see what the best athletes and best teams in a certain league were doing to try and see how they did what they did, what made them spectacular.

I could not tell you the name of one person on any of the teams in most of the sports and motor sports at the moment. If they were in the championship games, I might know a few of them because I watch a few of the championship games once in a blue moon.

It's boring to watch sports, go out and do them.

[James Y]

"You Have to Put Yourself First"

This is 100% spot on:



Jim

I grew up and lived as an athlete for decades just outside of Chicago. I liked watching and attending a few competitions per year in the sports that I was in as a youth, and I always liked certain motor sports, but I never quite got The Fans.

I'd rather do martial arts than watch a Bruce Lee movie. I did it.

I'd rather street race a motorcycle, or take the motorcycle to the race tracks and do my thing, than watch a race on TV. I did it.

I'd rather race a bicycle than watch the Tour de France. I did that too.

I watched a number of teams and athletes. I was never much of a homer, I did not really have a home team for any sports. I watched to see what the best athletes and best teams in a certain league were doing to try and see how they did what they did, what made them spectacular.

I could not tell you the name of one person on any of the teams in most of the sports and motor sports at the moment. If they were in the championship games, I might know a few of them because I watch a few of the championship games once in a blue moon.

It's boring to watch sports, go out and do them.

I never could get into watching team sports, on TV or in person. If people love it, that's awesome. It's wonderful to have something that gives you enjoyment, as long as it's not hurting anybody else. I just never could watch team sports. Even though as a kid, I was pretty decent at playing soccer, softball, and volleyball.

I never understood the tribalism so many people display for their teams. To the point that they take it personally if someone roots for another team. I could never over-identify with a sports team, or a martial arts style, my ethnicity, or any "-ism" or other belief system, to the point of basing my entire identity around it.

IMO, being sucked into that type of mindset makes people easy to control and to pit against each other, to distract people from the real problems. And you see it happening everywhere in society.

Jim

[James Y]

Don't Train With a Bully



Jim

[James Y]

"Most Fighters End Up Broke"



There are many things Michael Jai White says that I disagree with, but this is NOT one of them. And the "broke" part isn't the worst thing. The worst thing is the cumulative effects of trauma, especially to the head.

IMO, not every martial artist needs to "prove themselves" by fighting professionally in a cage. Thinking you have to is stupid mentality. The critics in the video's comments section who say that you have to, have almost certainly never fought themselves, and have probably never even trained a day in their lives. They are certainly not the type of people that anybody needs to "prove" anything to.

Bruce Lee gets the most crap flung on his name for never having competed. Even though the only martial arts competitions available for him at the time he was living in the States and formulating Jeet Kune Do were tournament point Karate and Judo competitions. Bruce Lee had learned a little bit of Judo, but would have been eaten alive in a Judo competition.

Chuck Norris is literally worshipped as having been a fighter, but he only fought in Karate point fighting tournaments. He was a fighter, just not the type of fighter many are assuming. The same as Michael Jai White and Jean-Claude Van Damme. Most of the people who worship Chuck Norris only know him because of his movies, and the "Chuck Norris Facts" jokes, which many seem to take as true facts.

The real fact is that Chuck Norris is alive and FAR healthier and prosperous today, at age 85, than he would have been had he been a professional full-contact fighter. Relatively few full-contact sports athletes remain with all of their physical and mental faculties intact into old age; among the few who apparently have are Benny Urquidez (my favorite martial arts fighter) and Bill Wallace (another of my boyhood heroes).

Jim

[James Y]

"Most Black Belts Are Fake"



I don't know about "most" (because I don't know "most" black belts), but in most examples I see today, "black belt" is not the same thing as when I was coming up, and had to earn my first black belt. I had to literally fight for it (back in 1980), because at 17, I was the youngest student that my Kenpo Karate instructor had ever qualified to test for black belt, up to that point. I had to go through the entire grueling test 3 separate times, before I finally endured enough to pass. My 1st (and later 2nd-degree) black sash tests in Choy Lee Fut in the late 1990s were also extremely grueling, but I passed both of those the 1st times. In the past, you had to be physically and mentally tough, and be able to fight and take an @$$-whooping, to earn your black belt (in most cases).

Nowadays, instructors are afraid of scaring students away, or getting sued for injuries or "abuse" (which was only hard training with higher standards). That's why the majority of Karate, Tae Kwon Do, etc. that you see today is watered down "kiddie" or "family" Karate. I've heard that a similar situation has started to happen in some BJJ schools. It's only a matter of time.

Jim

[Evil D]

Some may disagree with this video, and I'm no expert but it seems logical to me. I've been trying to find this video for years, and was just talking to a coworker this morning about it and finally found it.

[Naperville]

Some may disagree with this video, and I'm no expert but it seems logical to me. I've been trying to find this video for years, and was just talking to a coworker this morning about it and finally found it.

The drill, the Tueler(sp) Drill, has been misinterpreted by many. It is a drill, not a hard and fast rule. The distance is an approximation. It is a demonstration regarding REACTION TIME for those in armed security (and maybe to the every day person who is going about their business), who are looking at the perp before anyone reacts.

Safe distances for dealing with anyone armed with a knife range from 20+ feet at least. It has to do with recognition of the oncoming assault and your ability to react, to draw a firearm. But in reality it could be to run or present a defense.

In the police academies they train this drill to show new officers that within 20 to 30 feet, you may not get a shot off at a charging perp. Or you may shoot and miss. Someone assaulting you can cover the distance in a very short time.

I have seen people(Commander Zero and Doug Marciada) demonstrating rolling out of the way perpendicular to the charging perp's oncoming charge. That may work.

In reality it may take you 50 to 100 feet to get ready for an assault by knife. You have to detect them. Then you have to rapidly decide what to do and react in time to save your life.

Firearms are great. Machetes and swords are great. But few walk around with them in their hands. Few are ready for an assault every waking moment of the day 24x7x365. That is why people hire body guard details with 5, 10, 50 people.

[Naperville]

"Most Black Belts Are Fake"



I don't know about "most" (because I don't know "most" black belts), but in most examples I see today, "black belt" is not the same thing as when I was coming up, and had to earn my first black belt. I had to literally fight for it (back in 1980), because at 17, I was the youngest student that my Kenpo Karate instructor had ever qualified to test for black belt, up to that point. I had to go through the entire grueling test 3 separate times, before I finally endured enough to pass. My 1st (and later 2nd-degree) black sash tests in Choy Lee Fut in the late 1990s were also extremely grueling, but I passed both of those the 1st times. In the past, you had to be physically and mentally tough, and be able to fight and take an @$$-whooping, to earn your black belt (in most cases).

Nowadays, instructors are afraid of scaring students away, or getting sued for injuries or "abuse" (which was only hard training with higher standards). That's why the majority of Karate, Tae Kwon Do, etc. that you see today is watered down "kiddie" or "family" Karate. I've heard that a similar situation has started to happen in some BJJ schools. It's only a matter of time.

Jim

I don't have any black belts. You have a lot of great memories. You must have had great people for instructors and a very stable life to be able to pursue that training and belts.

As you know, I was thinking of going back to training. Maybe to graduate, maybe not, but just to be with the people involved and to train as much as possible. It's all about the training. I do, and don't think my age is a problem. I think physically I could start back this fall no problem because I am adapting. The warehouse job is becoming a bit easier as I push on. But, I have this home now and I don't think I should sell it.

I want to leave my family's home to my nephew and niece if I can hang on to it. I do not even know if I can hang onto it, this is a huge ask. I will know within <2 years if I can hang onto it.