Making the most of what you’ve got

[JoviAl]

Here we go, I even talk about this technique in this really old Manix XL video.



Not something I do often with folders,but it can be done safely both in regards to the user and the integrity of the knife. I've done this hundreds of times with Manix XL's, Police folders, Pacific Salts etc.

It's quicker than carving to point thicker sticks for woods stuff.

I do a lot of exploring outside - old hiking trails, out of the way disc golf courses, forgotten camp sites etc. There's been so many times I've had to do some light trail maintenance with whatever folder I have on me that I've learned to make the most of it.

Three finger grip, quick snappy wrist and elbow swings, angling the arc of my swing towards the stalk of the plant I'm cutting, etc. Something like a Police can be surprisingly effective used this way.

Mind you I'm talking about trimming back some light vegetation, not blazing a fresh trail. For the latter I'm bringing bigger more appropriate tools, like full sized machetes and large saws.

https://streamff.link/v/8b5392cd

There's me doing what I'm talking about with my Temp.

This is one of the reasons I don't mind a little extra handle on folders. In addition to being more ergonomic than having the back end digging into my palm, it gives me a wider range of grip options.

Look how much extra reach and leverage the Police in particular offers me for this sort of thing:





I expect my EDC to be used as a pocket machete from time to time. I try to avoid chopping woody growth generally but sometimes they do that as well. No issues with my thin edges holding up to the use.

I really appreciate knives like the Police, Voyager XL and Recon XL that offer a grip further back for extra reach.

It’s reassuring to see a folder can handle this I’ve been only doing it with my JM2 thus far, but this opens up more reserve options if the situation arises. Thanks for sharing Vivi.

[gk4ever2]

I find that my big, heavy knives do much better chopping if I hand them to someone younger and stronger than me, as I explain to them how much fun it is (kind of like Tom Sawyer did while he was painting the fence).

[JoviAl]

I find that my big, heavy knives do much better chopping if I hand them to someone younger and stronger than me, as I explain to them how much fun it is (kind of like Tom Sawyer did while he was painting the fence).

brilliant!

[Wartstein]

Okay but why do you not recommend trying that technique?

Does the inherent risk that comes with holding the dangerous part of the knife have anything to do with why you do not recommend trying it?

This is a good and constructive question, and I appreciate it especially in the context of this particular matter (choking up on the cutting edge) where there imho (!) still exists an astonishingly "reflexive" and somewhat irrational perception and reaction among many knife users (despite there are and historically always have been those doing this on knives and swords no problem).

So @JoviAl I hope you don´t mind if I type a reply that this question deserves ..

So why do I "not recommend trying this technique"?

Well, in a nutshell it comes down to "it´s not worth it" in the combination of several regards:

- 1.) Choking up on the cutting edge is not really a game changer that would revolutionise how knives can be used. I really like to do it and this frequently, I have learned to use knives that way from the get go without any problems, but one can instead just pinch grip the blade without contacting the edge or cut closer to its heel or grab a shorter knife in the first place as well

- 2.) I am here to enjoy my time And I have learned that when talking about this topic I usually have to deal with a lot of critique (not always constructive and based on true experience), disbelief and prejudices. I have no interest in dealing with that, even more so since "going on a quest" here would not bring a ton of benefit into the knife world...

- 3.) Related to the above: Like with many more or less uncommon yet "new" (at least for a majority) techniques there WOULD be a few who´d get hurt when trying it out, just by statistics (again, not specific to just that technique)

As an analogy: Just imagine almost no one would close a folder one handed, common belief would be that this is insecure and risky, but you´d know from your own experience that this is actually not the case.
I personally would still hesitate to be the first one who recommends and explains how to close a backlock one handed by guiding the blade into the closed position or how to "swing" a comp.lock or CBBL to close
There´d be SOME who´d cut themselves or drop the knife - which of course first and foremost would be a bad thing in itself, but I´d also just not want to be the guy who first recommended trying and who had to deal with all the "I told you so" stuff. (Differently to "choking up on the cutting edge" "closing a folder one handed" though brings some real and substantial benefits and would be "more worth it").

So, summary: Yes, I quite often scratch my head when I read here how almost panicky people are afraid that they could actually just TOUCH the cutting edge of their knives. But I almost always refrain on commenting on this matter. I just thought concerning the question of THIS particular thread I could share that I myself profit from that technique (and if one grips he knife firmly it just is no problem, but as said not even necessarily WORTH trying, since there are good alternatives).

Hope that clears things up a bit!

[horzuff]

With how sharp I keep my knives putting any real pressure on the blade without any lateral movement would result in a serious cut. Add to it the fact that my hand is not completely rigid (as in the soft tissues move and deform under force) and some movement is unevitable and that would result in serious injuries. And I have plenty of little cuts as testament for that ^^.

Maybe with a duller knife that would be doable but get a shaving sharp edge and holding the edge is just impossible for any more intensive task unless You have some magic trick to actually avoid placing the edge against Your skin.

Also, even assuming You have a special technique that allows You to somehow not cut Yourself in a perfect situation, what happens when something goes wrong? You slip off a cut and snag something after gathering some momentum - recipe for cut tendons and lots of blood loss.

As for historic uses - swords weren't that sharp, fighters wore gloves, many swords had dull sections on the blade for that purpose as well. Not sure about using knives this way in the past, didn't see any sources showcasing this though the sharpness argument is probably still valid here. I know of chocking up with a pinch grip, seen that done by older people, done that a bit myself. But bearing down on the edge? Just no

I understand this topic is about sharing Your experiences but this particular example is a bit like saying You drive without seatbelts and steer with Your knees as it let's You use Your arms freely and move around the car more. It's just showcasing a dangerous use.

[Mat_ski]

Neat tricks!

So, summary: Yes, I quite often scratch my head when I read here how almost panicky people are afraid that they could actually just TOUCH the cutting edge of their knives.

Lightsabers!

[Wartstein]

With how sharp I keep my knives putting any real pressure on the blade without any lateral movement would result in a serious cut. Add to it the fact that my hand is not completely rigid (as in the soft tissues move and deform under force) and some movement is unevitable and that would result in serious injuries. And I have plenty of little cuts as testament for that ^^.

Maybe with a duller knife that would be doable but get a shaving sharp edge and holding the edge is just impossible for any more intensive task unless You have some magic trick to actually avoid placing the edge against Your skin.

Also, even assuming You have a special technique that allows You to somehow not cut Yourself in a perfect situation, what happens when something goes wrong? You slip off a cut and snag something after gathering some momentum - recipe for cut tendons and lots of blood loss.

As for historic uses - swords weren't that sharp, fighters wore gloves, many swords had dull sections on the blade for that purpose as well. Not sure about using knives this way in the past, didn't see any sources showcasing this though the sharpness argument is probably still valid here. I know of chocking up with a pinch grip, seen that done by older people, done that a bit myself. But bearing down on the edge? Just no

I understand this topic is about sharing Your experiences but this particular example is a bit like saying You drive without seatbelts and steer with Your knees as it let's You use Your arms freely and move around the car more. It's just showcasing a dangerous use.

This is why I´ve learned to usually avoid this topic, as sad as it is that I have to do so on a dedicated knife forum.

Man, we are not discussing here if something COULD work or not:

- You will find a ton of posts of mine where I literally and clearly state "I can´t weigh in " "I don´t know for sure"... "cause I don´t have any or enough experience with the matter". I always try to make it clear when this is the case.

HERE though we are talking about a technique I have more than extensive experience with I DO use ALL THE TIME for many years now with knives easily "shaving sharp" (at least top Spyderco factory sharpness or easily cutting curves in phonebook paper).
In various, also "intensive tasks". And no, not only in "perfect situations".
And I do "place the edge against my skin"

So NO, it is NOT impossible at all and in literally hundreds and hundreds of cutting tasks this technique never caused any problems or harm for me. For example two fingers on the edge and two on the handle lock the knife in perfectly for me, even in the outdoors in wet conditions when whittling hard wood for example.

So I am telling you that I know cause I not only just tried, but this is pretty much "second nature" for me.
(While you, no offense, theorize what would or could happen...)
And my sole reason for sharing it is that this thread explicitly asked how the one or other might use their knives to make certain tasks more convenient. I am not trying to convince anyone (rather the opposite), as one who actually uses the technique with sharp knives I am just telling things how they are (for me) without any agenda.

IF this technique would bring true benefits, I am sure it would become generally accepted over time - but it does not and there are good alternatives.

It is not "dangerous use" (though it definitely may look like just that!) if one knows what they are doing, as my example really should prove.

Again no offense, but in a way it reminds me of discussions with non-knife people:
"Carrying and using a folder is dangerous" - "have you actually ever carried and used one?" - "no, but I know it is dangerous" (and should even be forbidden)

You know, there where times when people thought traveling with over 60 mph (or something like that) would kill a human and found envisioning this scary.
It´s a bit like someone said: "Hey, I actually did travel with 100 mph and I am just fine" and the closed minded still would go like "I did not, but I still know it would kill any human"....

[VashHash]

I've used the extended grip method before. I remember showing this a few years ago and some were not happy about it. This is how I open boxes sometimes. My finger is in the hole and my other fingers support the spine of the blade. Worst case scenario the knife opens all the way

[vivi]

Vash, I do the same thing when cutting threads.

When I open boxes I use my index finger on the tip for a precision grip:



That's pretty much the only time I use choils.

[Mushroom]

@Wartstein
I’m still a bit confused. Your explanations seem to suggest that you are aware of the potential risk involved with that technique but it also feels like you’re carefully avoiding saying that directly.

It’s not a theory that the edge of the knife is what does the cutting. I just find it difficult to understand how you can honestly suggest that there is no risk involved when placing fingers directly on the edge of the knife during use.

It often seems like when the words “dangerous” or “risk” come up, you insist that knives are somehow exempt from being those things just because you have personal experience using them safely in the past.

The number of times you’ve done it safely in the past is irrelevant. Anecdotes are not evidence. The fact is that doing it at all significantly increases the potential risk of injury and it’s completely reasonable to acknowledge that. I think the risk involved is truly why you don’t recommend it, even though you won’t outright say that.

Here is an analogy to highlight the flaw I’m seeing with the logic being presented - I know the speed limit is 20mph in a small residential neighborhood but sometimes drive 120mph through the neighborhood because it gets me where I’m going faster and I’ve done it before without anything going wrong. It is not dangerous because I’ve done it before.

Ultimately, whatever our reasons may be, I think we’re actually in agreement on that technique though - it is not good advice that should be broadly recommended. Anyone who chooses to try it, should do so at their own risk.

[TkoK83Spy]

Really wish my latest comment would be been approved yesterday, now I'm just falling behind. Really not even worth trying to post here anymore

[Red Leader]

I'm still failing to see any recommendations for these techniques from any of these users, and in fact I think it is interesting to hear about the unorthodox ways people use their knives. Why so much 'this is for your own safety' energy?

Back to the topic at hand, I will add my own -

Sometimes I use this grip when wanting to have fine control of the tip for delicate scraping operations, using just a little bit of side pressure from my finger…





Is it possible for the disapprovers to, very kindly and respectfully, move to another discussion and we can continue the original topic?

[Scandi Grind]

I'm enjoying what has been shared so far. Please nobody stop sharing just 'cause some people don't like your methods.

I have also used the method described by the OP on my Mora Robust. Works good for cutting thicker bush branches when I'm trimming bushes.

[Mushroom]

@Red Leader

No, and with all due respect, can you please stop redirecting this into some sort of social justice experiment? No one here is a victim. Disagreement does not equal disrespect. We are still discussing the original topic. You're not going to make us feel guilty for offering respectful critique of the techniques discussed here. This is a discussion forum, not an echo chamber. If having a discussion is really the goal, asking others to move on for respectfully disagreeing doesn’t make much sense.

You guys are making this out to be way more than it needed to be. The original point was clear from the start - the technique in question isn’t recommended. Simple as that. (The obvious reason being increased risk of injury.)

[JoviAl]

I'm still failing to see any recommendations for these techniques from any of these users, and in fact I think it is interesting to hear about the unorthodox ways people use their knives. Why so much 'this is for your own safety' energy?

Back to the topic at hand, I will add my own -

Sometimes I use this grip when wanting to have fine control of the tip for delicate scraping operations, using just a little bit of side pressure from my finger…





Is it possible for the disapprovers to, very kindly and respectfully, move to another discussion and we can continue the original topic?

I do something similar but with the blade pointing up towards the sky to get splinters out of skin. Works well for me, especially on the really fine aluminium splinters that you get when grinding cylinder heads (I really hate those things! They’re insidious).

[JoviAl]

@Red Leader

No, and with all due respect, can you please stop redirecting this into some sort of social justice experiment? No one here is a victim. Disagreement does not equal disrespect. We are still discussing the original topic. You're not going to make us feel guilty for offering respectful critique of the techniques discussed here. This is a discussion forum, not an echo chamber. If having a discussion is really the goal, asking others to move on for respectfully disagreeing doesn’t make much sense.

You guys are making this out to be way more than it needed to be. The original point was clear from the start - the technique in question isn’t recommended. Simple as that. (The obvious reason being increased risk of injury.)

@Mushroom not everyone appears to be holding themselves to the same standard of respectful opinion or counterpoint as you. I always enjoy reading your comments as they are well reasoned, well written and often a different perspective to my own (I think I would enjoy discussing politics with you if there was a platform for that kind of discussion). I started this thread as an opportunity to share and discuss unconventional techniques for using knives, especially when in a pinch. I appreciate everyone taking the time to comment on here, be it with techniques of their own or observations on potential pitfalls that might not have been considered with as much depth as they might be due.

[VashHash]

I'm still failing to see any recommendations for these techniques from any of these users, and in fact I think it is interesting to hear about the unorthodox ways people use their knives. Why so much 'this is for your own safety' energy?

Back to the topic at hand, I will add my own -

Sometimes I use this grip when wanting to have fine control of the tip for delicate scraping operations, using just a little bit of side pressure from my finger…





Is it possible for the disapprovers to, very kindly and respectfully, move to another discussion and we can continue the original topic?

I've done this as well. I do it when I use my knives like a craft knife or scalpel for fine cutting of intricate shapes.

[Red Leader]

I do something similar but with the blade pointing up towards the sky to get splinters out of skin. Works well for me, especially on the really fine aluminium splinters that you get when grinding cylinder heads (I really hate those things! They’re insidious).

Ooh, I haven't tried it for splinters, that's a good idea. I usually get metal splinters from the screws on HVAC units since we're always taking off big metal panels. Wouldn't have thought you'd get splinters from grinding cylinder heads, but since I've never ground a cylinder head, I wouldn't know! The tweezers from a SAK also work great for those tiny metal splinters, but seeing as my Swiss Army knife has two missing slots on the handles, I'm always asking my son for his to borrow hah.

[JoviAl]

I do something similar but with the blade pointing up towards the sky to get splinters out of skin. Works well for me, especially on the really fine aluminium splinters that you get when grinding cylinder heads (I really hate those things! They’re insidious).

Ooh, I haven't tried it for splinters, that's a good idea. I usually get metal splinters from the screws on HVAC units since we're always taking off big metal panels. Wouldn't have thought you'd get splinters from grinding cylinder heads, but since I've never ground a cylinder head, I wouldn't know! The tweezers from a SAK also work great for those tiny metal splinters, but seeing as my Swiss Army knife has two missing slots on the handles, I'm always asking my son for his to borrow hah.

I port 2 stroke engines, so I do a fair bit of reshaping of the intake, exhaust and transfers with a Foredom and double cut burrs. It throws these horrible little bits of metal shaped a bit like the point of a hypodermic needle but about as thick as a beard hair. They are a nightmare to get back out, especially if (and I can neither confirm nor deny that I fall into this category ) you do your port work in slides and get them in the soles of your feet. That really sucks. You’d think a guy would learn…

[Red Leader]

@Red Leader

No, and with all due respect, can you please stop redirecting this into some sort of social justice experiment? No one here is a victim. Disagreement does not equal disrespect. We are still discussing the original topic. You're not going to make us feel guilty for offering respectful critique of the techniques discussed here. This is a discussion forum, not an echo chamber. If having a discussion is really the goal, asking others to move on for respectfully disagreeing doesn’t make much sense.

You guys are making this out to be way more than it needed to be. The original point was clear from the start - the technique in question isn’t recommended. Simple as that. (The obvious reason being increased risk of injury.)

Nick, you obviously have more time and experience on this forum, and probably from actual knife use too, compared to me. I'm pretty much a nobody and you are very much a senior member. In fact, I've probably learned several things from you in other threads. Sounds like we are all knife nerds and enjoy the conversing. My name is Dave, btw.

I have cut myself far more times simply operating a folding knife than from any specific technique. Hard truths from the 'handle forward' crew lol. I think using a folder, in general, is probably far more risky and dangerous than a fixed blade, and simply having knives likely increases the risk of being cut versus having no knives at all. So to a certain end, there is an assumption of risk within this corner of the world we are operating in, and that I'm sure we are all aware of.

Most of the time that I have cut myself, it was from closing the knife edge on my finger, mainly silly rookie mistakes. It is a skill issue on part. No insinuation here.

Continuing to drive the point that these techniques are not recommended, when not a single person in this thread is recommending anything, in my small opinion increases the signal-to-noise ratio in this thread. And if we are talking risky techniques, you would have been horrified by the way I cut a bagel this morning haha. I don't think it helpful trying to equate these techniques to driving 120mph in a school zone (and potentially killing scores of children?) because nobody on this earth is going to argue against that point and it comes off to me more as a strawman argument.

If the goal is to warn people that what their doing is wrong or dangerous, fair. And also, why? What is the point? Are we all not adults, that are capable of our own risk management, within our own sphere of experience and skill level? I would (respectfully) argue that your warning is not needed.

If the goal is to convince people that what they are doing is dangerous or risky to themselves, based on your standard, I'm not seeing a persuasive argument. Or, if the goal is to warn newcomers who see this thread that these are not simply things to try with a knife willy nilly, then I find it admirable I'm open to that line of thinking.

And if what I said about 'naysayers leave the thread' came off disrespectfully, then I apologize, I didn't mean it in a condescening or sarcastic way. It just sort of came off like people were being treated like children for their views and I didn't like it. I have no way to convince you of my own good faith or anything here, but I hope we can talk, discuss, debate, or disagree and all come away whole and/or better for it. I'm okay to hear the dissent, and the philosophical side of the argument is interesting to me.

Thank you for your thoughts, even if we disagree on some. I'm sure we have far more that we agree on. And thanks for opening my eyes to the PPT, didn't know about that one before you.