A Plea to Spyderco

[Knife Knut]

The defense attorney would also cite the naming precedent of the Police and Rookie models.

Knife Knut on a shoestring budget.

[Little claw]

I think this is a good point, also.

I remember a column by Mas Ayoob in Combat Handguns which talked about implicitly violent names and the impact they could have in a court case subsequent to a violent incident.

While a non-PC name alone might not convict you, it could help to present an attitude/frame of mind that wouldn't help your case.

Spyderco are generally very good at selecting descriptive yet non-aggressive names for their products.

To the educated, 'Paramilitary' ('para-' meaning 'almost' or 'next to') is both descriptive and non-aggressive, and is less strong a word than 'Military'. In recent decades, however, the word 'paramilitary' has become heavily linked with terrorism and extremism and for this reason I think that Spyderco have made a rare mistake in this instance. 'Cadet' would have been a much better name IMHO.

That said, if I like the knife and it suits my needs, no name will stop me from buying it.

Except maybe 'Poo Dragon'...

[Fozzy]

With all due respect to Mas Ayoob, I'm finding it difficult to imagine that a name could have all that much effect on the outcome of a court case in which a knife was used responsibly in self defense. Court is always a bit of a crapshoot however.

It just occured to me... Police departments are commonly referred to as "para-military organizations" ... <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

Is there a release date for the Poo-Dragon?

Ben "No good deed goes unpunished"

Edited by - Fozzy on 11/21/2003 6:49:15 PM

[wotanson]

I agree that a name like "Paramilitary" could be used against someone at trial, but I remember watching a news conference about a man shot by police in Brooklyn NY. The police commish made great pains to contradict Mayor Rudy who only used the word "Hammer" to describe what the guy had in his hand. The Police commish insisted on using the term "CLAWHAMMER" IE; a regular hammer that anyone could get at Home Depot for three bucks, anyone could make anything sound more sinister than what it really is, even a spork.


Odin, guide my sword to eternal victory

[mjmcdowell]

Guest, good post got everybody thinking about knives and self defense... this a subject that is very touchy there are lots of opinions out there, some good, some not so good, no matter. Self defense as we all know is a serious undertaking no matter what object you use in its undertaking, I was told once that when you want good advice, and this an area where you would want the best possible because we all read the newspapers, court is at best as some one said "a crapshoot", go to the experts, a good criminal trial attorney, your local DA, or judge would seem to be a logical choice. As one who made the decision years ago to walk about when and where legal, armed I have sought the advice of such people and have been advised that no stone will go unturned and even if you are justified every nook and cranny of your life will be examined and any bridges you may have burned so to say may come back to haunt you, so I would rather hedge my bet as best as I could, no 'Tactical special" hand guns or knives with such as ' Para military on the blade would be carried by me. I can just hear it now ...... "Sooooooo you had to have a knife/gun with [ insert words you might find on such tools here] to protect yourself/family so who do you think you are John Wayne, Rambo etc. etc.? bad image I think, this is one thing I could control as attorneys for the prosecution can be slick I have been told, I would rather take my chances with a "cleaner " tool if you know what I mean . All that being said in my rambling I hope I never find myself in the position that Massid Ayoob calls "The gravest extreme", be safe, mjmcdowell

[Alan2112]

Just make a great knife that I find appealing, the name is low on the list. They can rename the Military the gentleknife, or the slashmaster, I would still want one.

[sc_rebel1957]

Lots of good points raised in this thread, but I find it sorta ironic that the most wicked knife on earth for SD is called the Civillian and its FRN brother the Matriarch <img src="smile.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>.
It's just a name. Ron

[Joe Talmadge]

I would argue that it's not just a name ... it's one more nail in the coffin of malice-aforethought that an overzealous DA could use against a good guy who uses his knife in self-defense. You're kidding yourself if you don't think the name "paramilitary" will cause some gut-level reaction in the minds of a jury. Yes, if the facts of the case are clear and speak for themselves, then the name of the knife by itself is probably meaningless. But if there's any question at all, if you're unlucky enough not to have a witness to corroborate your side of the story ... like I said, it might not change a jury's mind by itself, but it's one more nail in the coffin.

[java]

Good point, Joe.

Unfortunately it is often the name that adds to the mystique and desirability of a product. Sharp things have sharp names unless some of the tongue-in-cheek monikers that Spyderco uses - like the Catcherman, Dodo, Ladybug, or Jester invoke a shape, a humorous tag line, or a size. It is all about perception as you indicate and as mentioned previously regarding the claw hammer it can be twisted into whatever way our legal practicioners can convince the courts. With this in mind, if you really what a gut-wrenching name for a knife, let’s honor our litigious urban survival environment and call it the Para-legal. Moral compunction keeps me from uttering their employers and I think wielding a twin-bladed Minutiae-Advocating Two-faced Horn-Rimmed Cutthroat would send any jury into a panic flight.

Stay safe! Stay sharp!

[CKE]

This is all very hypothetical in all actuality. Really how many (truthfully) have used their folder for self defense? I don't care what is on the knife(or whatever is in my hands at the time)if you need the knife for self defense then you have already taken that "next step" to defending yourself. If you can't run/walk/jog away from the situation then the very act of pulling your knife out is switching it from a tool to a weapon. Who cares what it says on the knife, you have just decided to take lethal/very close to lethal action to defend yourself. I think at that point you would be more apt to worry about being harmed then "Para-Military" on the blade. Give people on the jury a bit of credit as well. Sure someone will get the $%^& end of the stick. If you are that worried about it then carry a whistle and hope that works. If you are carrying for SD then ante up and take the responsiblility of carrying for SD. Don't blame it on the name, if you think that matters then find another item to save your bacon.
I don't mean to offend anyone here but lets put this in perspective here. It is just a name, nothing more. Take Care!!!

"everything else is just a jeep"

[pvr4]

Like guest, I am new here and I too have some issues with the name. For the record I plan to buy four paramilitaries when they are available and I could care less about names on blades in general. Getting busted for carrying a blade with a non PC name is the least of my worries. However, upon hearing the name of the knife, my initial reaction were thoughts of South and Central American deah squads, terrorist groups from both sides in Northern Ireland; you get my drift. The use of para as explained in earlier posts, as resembling the military didn't cross my mind. I imagine most people who see it in a catalog or dealer's case and aren't members of the forum will think of paramilitary groups too.

Anyway, I look forward to owning one.

[sal]

Hi Guest, Welcome to the Spyderco forum. Thanx for the input, although, perhaps a bit harsh in its presentation.

I personaly don't like names on blades either, mostly we do it as a result of dealer preference.

We've not yet engraved the first Para-militaries. Engraving on the spine is an extra set-up and time consuming, but no engraving of a knife name is a possibility.

(we'd engrave only the normal Spyderco stuff at the tang)

Can we have a vote?

sal

[yog]

Vote - No name please.

I'd rather the knife's performance speak for itself <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>

Walk softly, carry a big stick.

[java]

Sal,

With all due respect, the Para-military is the Para-military. Engrave it or not the name is the same. I don't see Rookie engraved anywhere on my G10 SE or Civilian inscribed any where on my C12GS - the most innocent sounding of all evil looking Lecterian blades on the planet. I'll say yea on the engraving but I'm with Yog on the sentiment - Give me a user that stands up to hard work like its larger sibling. It should sell on the Spyderco reputation of reliable high performance blades.

Para-military is still a valid Enlish language user. It may be under fire from the PC Police and have its "bad" connotations but it's still a valid and usefull term. The US Armed Forces security police contract employees and DOD security police that guard government property are para-military forces and I think you honor not only the C36 and the men who serve in our Armed Forces but the thousands of security forces who also serve and protect without recognition for their efforts. I would go so far as to include US Marshalls and certain branches of the BTAF and Secret Service as para-miliitary units with proud histories. I won't touch the CIA, FBI and, as has been referred to before here, the police themselves, as para-military units.

The police have their Rookie - the Armed Services, NASA, the AEC, et al should have their ParaMilitary. Egrave it like the Police, the P.I.G., the Military and I'll carry it with pride. The Rookie should've had the same treatment: at least for a sprint run - for collector value alone. It's still a production decision to be decided by y'all based on time and cost effectiveness, but I would love to see at least a run of 1,000 or so with the Para-military name on the blade somewhere.

The soapbox is now vacant....

Stay safe! Stay sharp!

[pvr4]

hmm, well given a vote (thanks sal) I vote no engraving.

[Dave_B]

I don't mind the name but I really don't want it engraved on the blade. I'll undoubtedly buy a couple either way. Thanks for the opportunity to vote.
Dave_B

[Jurphaas]

Good morning Sal. If sentiments run this high about a topic tike this and if concerns about the possible reactions of the juradictional system are so feared, as it shows here, Spyderco should stop engraving knife names immediately.
If those fears are valid, we should be concerned about all those convicted people carrying potential high -tech knives!!!

Clipits work!

[chux]

Sal,
Thankyou for the opportunity to vote. For aesthetic purposes I would prefer to not have the name engraved on the blade.

[dynaryder]

I also vote for no name(and a Ball lock,we're voting on that too,right? ;-} ). I just prefer my blades plain.

[Big-Target]

Luckily there are "non-macho name"<img src="spyder.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>s on the market, such as Salsa,cricket, Delica ,Jester, etc. <img src="wink.gif" width=15 height=15 align=middle border=0>



BIG-TARGET>>>>>>"When young men seek to be like you, when lazy men resent you, when powerful men look over their shoulder at you, when cowardly men plot behind your back, when corrupt men wish you were gone and evil men want you dead...only then will you have done your share."---unknown