Why Do Seki Models Have Lock Rock??!!

[vivi]

golden made c95 with visible / audible lock rock from light pressure applied to handle

https://streamlala.com/Xl247/

[vivi]

golden made m4 native chief with a lock bar that visibly moves when 5-10lbs of pressure are applied to handle scales.

https://streamlala.com/eHSTo/

[vivi]

sprint golden made c95 that had lock rock when new in box:

https://streamlala.com/tvwuE/

YMMV but I've never handled a golden made lockback with zero vertical play.

[Wartstein]

Not one of my golden lockback spydies have any lock rock. But i must confess i have no idea about seki knives because i only own 1 anymore and that is an old Ayoob that is also lock rock free the rest i all sold off. But that said i havent bin interested in Seki spydies for years. I look at them as entry level spydies from the moment you start buying Golden and taichung spyders the ones of Seki seem to loose there appeal.
That said i agree that Spyderco should need to be more strickt to there Japanese plants.
Not only is there quality not in balance.
There prices from the moment they make something in g10 are out of this world as wel.
So a hey guys step up your game because you arent performing like you use to would be not out of place in this situation i gues.

My situation is quite the other way round: A ton of experience with Seki lockbacks, but I think I only had four Golden lockbacks so far and only two of those over a longer period of time.

But I have to agree with Vivi here and also disagree with all due respect my friend with most of your points.

- All Spyderco lockbacks I have/had, including the Golden ones, had some degree of lock rock - and if only such that could be only be provoked by pressing the edge on a surface (Exception: Taichung Chaparral. No perceiveable lockrock).

- To me Seki Spydies are not at all "entry Spydies that loose their appeal as soon as one buys Golden and Taichung ones".
Especially when comparing them to G10 models from Golden, I find the Seki FRNs to be amazing.
Imo much harder to design such light, slim knives that are still really solid workhorses than it is with heavy linered G10 folders (not saying that the latter aren´t good, they are! The real "art" to me though is to make a solid folder that is still light and very carryable)
Also, to me FRN is a better, clearly tougher handle material than G10 (though less stiff) - and is actually stronger in its own way indeed (see for example here (quoting Michael Janich) viewtopic.php?t=89908&start=80#p1532157 or here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=94777#p1713847)

- I also fully understand that a lock rock free folder can feel like more quality and people prefer that.
I personally though don´t see any problem with a bit lockrock. No practical implication at all.
It could even be (just a really weird theory though!!) that lockrock acts a bit like a "damping" and makes a lock even stronger in the end?!

[vivi]

I've never had a spyderco lockback fail me, lock rock or not. I've used them pretty hard too. I've batoned and pried with Pacific Salts many times, even used them for plain ol cutting once or twice

For real though, saying these knives can't handle making kindling has gotta be a joke. I've used Pacific Salts to split wood with a baton, chop stuff up, make feather sticks, make wood shavings, spark ferro rods etc. They can handle making kindling without even breaking a sweat. Heck, I can do all these tasks with a non locking swiss army knife, so I gotta question the technique of someone that can't make kindling with a saber ground Endura.

[Wartstein]

....
For real though, saying these knives can't handle making kindling has gotta be a joke. I've used Pacific Salts to split wood with a baton, chop stuff up, make feather sticks, make wood shavings, spark ferro rods etc. They can handle making kindling without even breaking a sweat.
...

This.

[elena86]

I've never had a spyderco lockback fail me, lock rock or not. I've used them pretty hard too. I've batoned and pried with Pacific Salts many times, even used them for plain ol cutting once or twice

For real though, saying these knives can't handle making kindling has gotta be a joke. I've used Pacific Salts to split wood with a baton, chop stuff up, make feather sticks, make wood shavings, spark ferro rods etc. They can handle making kindling without even breaking a sweat. Heck, I can do all these tasks with a non locking swiss army knife, so I gotta question the technique of someone that can't make kindling with a saber ground Endura.

The conclusion being ?!

[Flash]

With the amount of money we are required to pay for owning your typical Spyderco, there really shouldn’t be any kind of perceivable lock rock, blade play or any other kind of blade movement upon deployment and use. No movement is acceptable at these price points.

I should not be receiving a lock knife which deploys a blade that isn’t fully locked into position. If there is movement it tells me the knife / it’s components have not been subjected to the correct quality control protocols or that there’s a fault in the design.

Fortunately Spyderco is generally one that doesn’t rest on its laurels too much, and when a problem is highlighted it is dealt with by its CQI policies. However, these policies don’t appear to be administered across the entire range of factories - Seki City being one of them - highlighted in my experience by “on going” blade play and lock rock problems with the Delica.

I know it’s a simplistic way of looking at things but it still stands; if a £10 Opinel doesn’t have blade movement when the lock is applied, then a £100 Spyderco also shouldn’t.

[elena86]

With the amount of money we are required to pay for owning your typical Spyderco, there really shouldn’t be any kind of perceivable lock rock, blade play or any other kind of blade movement upon deployment and use. No movement is acceptable at these price points.

I should not be receiving a lock knife which deploys a blade that isn’t fully locked into position. If there is movement it tells me the knife / it’s components have not been subjected to the correct quality control protocols or that there’s a fault in the design.

Fortunately Spyderco is generally one that doesn’t rest on its laurels too much, and when a problem is highlighted it is dealt with by its CQI policies. However, these policies don’t appear to be administered across the entire range of factories - Seki City being one of them - highlighted in my experience by “on going” blade play and lock rock problems with the Delica.

I know it’s a simplistic way of looking at things but it still stands; if a £10 Opinel doesn’t have blade movement when the lock is applied, then a £100 Spyderco also shouldn’t.

Wise words !

[apollo]

Not one of my golden lockback spydies have any lock rock. But i must confess i have no idea about seki knives because i only own 1 anymore and that is an old Ayoob that is also lock rock free the rest i all sold off. But that said i havent bin interested in Seki spydies for years. I look at them as entry level spydies from the moment you start buying Golden and taichung spyders the ones of Seki seem to loose there appeal.
That said i agree that Spyderco should need to be more strickt to there Japanese plants.
Not only is there quality not in balance.
There prices from the moment they make something in g10 are out of this world as wel.
So a hey guys step up your game because you arent performing like you use to would be not out of place in this situation i gues.

My situation is quite the other way round: A ton of experience with Seki lockbacks, but I think I only had four Golden lockbacks so far and only two of those over a longer period of time.

But I have to agree with Vivi here and also disagree with all due respect my friend with most of your points.

- All Spyderco lockbacks I have/had, including the Golden ones, had some degree of lock rock - and if only such that could be only be provoked by pressing the edge on a surface (Exception: Taichung Chaparral. No perceiveable lockrock).

- To me Seki Spydies are not at all "entry Spydies that loose their appeal as soon as one buys Golden and Taichung ones".
Especially when comparing them to G10 models from Golden, I find the Seki FRNs to be amazing.
Imo much harder to design such light, slim knives that are still really solid workhorses than it is with heavy linered G10 folders (not saying that the latter aren´t good, they are! The real "art" to me though is to make a solid folder that is still light and very carryable)
Also, to me FRN is a better, clearly tougher handle material than G10 (though less stiff) - and is actually stronger in its own way indeed (see for example here (quoting Michael Janich) viewtopic.php?t=89908&start=80#p1532157 or here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=94777#p1713847)

- I also fully understand that a lock rock free folder can feel like more quality and people prefer that.
I personally though don´t see any problem with a bit lockrock. No practical implication at all.
It could even be (just a really weird theory though!!) that lockrock acts a bit like a "damping" and makes a lock even stronger in the end?!

I guess i am really really lucky then. I can do what i want with any of my lock backs and none have even the slightest degree of lock rock.
But i do need to say i will never have to fear any job with my old lock back Manixes. I see myself failing physically before those locks do.
Everything Vivi does with his knives i also do. Not that i need to do these tasks for camping or something but i just do them for fun.
Dont know what is wrong with me but doing that stuff releases stress in my case.
But that said i would never use a Lw knife for that stuff not because they can not do it. But Just because i find them not comfortable enough. I really prefer a good slab of handle then a thin skinny thing any day of the week.
I do want to clear one thing up of my last post.
I still see seki spydies as great quality knives. They just don’t give me the same bang for your buck feeling Golden or taichung spydies do and i just wish they slightly improved on that matter.
I think that is because they’re prices went up but they’re quality stayed the same. While i can clearly notice improvements in golden spydies. For example my older Manix 2’s fit and finish are not as good as my new ones. Same go’s for the Native’s. But i if a handle a Delica in a store it still feels the same as the one i had for years but now its just double the price.

[ChrisinHove]

My 2 standard Native 5’s, Spyopera and Ti Chaparral have no perceptible lock rock. The Chief and all my Seki’s /Moki’s do, but not to an extent that I notice in use, or care about.

I consider there to be absolutely zero risk of lock failure in anything approaching normal use. Maybe a hammer or long extension bar could overwhelm the material, but that would be moronic and/or desperate.

[ladybug93]

For real though, saying these knives can't handle making kindling has gotta be a joke. I've used Pacific Salts to split wood with a baton, chop stuff up, make feather sticks, make wood shavings, spark ferro rods etc. They can handle making kindling without even breaking a sweat. Heck, I can do all these tasks with a non locking swiss army knife, so I gotta question the technique of someone that can't make kindling with a saber ground Endura.

if you're referring to me, i never said they can't handle it. in fact, i said they can, but that this kind of work is not what they are made for. i'm not sure why that is controversial... pocket knives are supposed to be light cutting tools. some are built more robust than others and the seki knives are probably on the lower middle range of that spectrum. it's not a knock against them. they are what they are and they appeal to you or they don't.

of course you can make kindling with a delica, but that doesn't make it a hatchet or a fixed blade. you can cut boxes all day with it, but it'll never be as good as a utility knife for that purpose. you could use it for surgery, but it's not a scalpel. it seems ridiculous to imply that, because something can be pushed into a specific use that is clearly beyond it's designed purpose, it's perfectly capable. these knives are not built for making kindling. no knife that has a pivot that loosens simply from opening and closing the knife in normal use, or has a handle that flexes under light pressure, is made for hard use.

i feel like we've had this discussion before. i don't really want to rehash it again. i will say though, from reading your post, we agree on pretty much everything except the conclusion, which you seem tied to by bias. subjectively, a manix lw (no liners) has a more sturdy and confidence inspiring feel than an endura with liners. objectively, it's less likely to have blade play in use and it flexes less under pressure/torque. and a g10 manix and an endura with liners are not even in the same category of knife, in my opinion.

since you mentioned hollow grind vs flat, i'll say that's another point we agree on. the problem is that the hollow grind of the pacific salt is attached to a weaker pivot and handle, and a lock interface that allows movement.

you know the manix and the pacific salt are my favorite knives and almost exclusively the combo that i carry daily. there is plenty good reason for that. i am not crapping on either of them. i have used both of them harder than they were probably designed to be used and they are both still favored. that doesn't mean they are perfect.


really, we could settle this very easily. if you could choose between two knives that were exactly the same, but one had rock solid lockup and the other had the standard seki lockup, which would you choose? my guess is that you would go for the more solid feeling option.

[TkoK83Spy]

I've honestly never once checked for lock rock. I actually had to look up what it even was when I heard about it on the forum in the past. Once I saw what it was, I honestly didn't care. Seems like a nit picky thing some reviewer on YouTube found once, and everyone else jumped on board with it. I suppose it could be an issue if excessively used over a long period of time...but let's be real here, anybody reading this has more than enough knives to cycle through that they would never experience a failure. Nobody has just ONE knife around here!

[vivi]

I've never had a spyderco lockback fail me, lock rock or not. I've used them pretty hard too. I've batoned and pried with Pacific Salts many times, even used them for plain ol cutting once or twice

For real though, saying these knives can't handle making kindling has gotta be a joke. I've used Pacific Salts to split wood with a baton, chop stuff up, make feather sticks, make wood shavings, spark ferro rods etc. They can handle making kindling without even breaking a sweat. Heck, I can do all these tasks with a non locking swiss army knife, so I gotta question the technique of someone that can't make kindling with a saber ground Endura.

The conclusion being ?!

Thought it was obvious.

Lock rock =/= unsafe or weak lock.

It just means the lock has lock rock.

[vivi]

With the amount of money we are required to pay for owning your typical Spyderco, there really shouldn’t be any kind of perceivable lock rock, blade play or any other kind of blade movement upon deployment and use. No movement is acceptable at these price points.

I should not be receiving a lock knife which deploys a blade that isn’t fully locked into position. If there is movement it tells me the knife / it’s components have not been subjected to the correct quality control protocols or that there’s a fault in the design.

Fortunately Spyderco is generally one that doesn’t rest on its laurels too much, and when a problem is highlighted it is dealt with by its CQI policies. However, these policies don’t appear to be administered across the entire range of factories - Seki City being one of them - highlighted in my experience by “on going” blade play and lock rock problems with the Delica.

I know it’s a simplistic way of looking at things but it still stands; if a £10 Opinel doesn’t have blade movement when the lock is applied, then a £100 Spyderco also shouldn’t.

Every lockback I've owned with lock rock had no issues getting into the proper locked position. It just moves a bit during cutting.

Opinels have completely different materials and locks. Not the best comparison. Buck 110 would be better, or the old school lockback Cold Steel Voyagers predating the triad lock. Many made in japan as well.

[kerrcobra]

if you're referring to me, i never said they can't handle it. in fact, i said they can, but that this kind of work is not what they are made for. i'm not sure why that is controversial... pocket knives are supposed to be light cutting tools. some are built more robust than others and the seki knives are probably on the lower middle range of that spectrum. it's not a knock against them. they are what they are and they appeal to you or they don't.

of course you can make kindling with a delica, but that doesn't make it a hatchet or a fixed blade. you can cut boxes all day with it, but it'll never be as good as a utility knife for that purpose. you could use it for surgery, but it's not a scalpel. it seems ridiculous to imply that, because something can be pushed into a specific use that is clearly beyond it's designed purpose, it's perfectly capable. these knives are not built for making kindling. no knife that has a pivot that loosens simply from opening and closing the knife in normal use, or has a handle that flexes under light pressure, is made for hard use.

The confusion is probably because you neglected to state you were comparing seki lockbacks to fixed blades in your first post. Instead, you followed the original statement up by comparing them against another folder - the cold steel triad lock - and as you've already clarified here, it seemed a bit ridiculous to state one folder is designed for or far more capable of performing a task that neither would perform as well or as safely as a fixed blade. Do we all know how to use a folder to baton safely and make kindling, etc.? Yes, but we all know that fixed blades are better suited too.

[vivi]

For real though, saying these knives can't handle making kindling has gotta be a joke. I've used Pacific Salts to split wood with a baton, chop stuff up, make feather sticks, make wood shavings, spark ferro rods etc. They can handle making kindling without even breaking a sweat. Heck, I can do all these tasks with a non locking swiss army knife, so I gotta question the technique of someone that can't make kindling with a saber ground Endura.

if you're referring to me, i never said they can't handle it. in fact, i said they can, but that this kind of work is not what they are made for. i'm not sure why that is controversial... pocket knives are supposed to be light cutting tools. some are built more robust than others and the seki knives are probably on the lower middle range of that spectrum. it's not a knock against them. they are what they are and they appeal to you or they don't.

of course you can make kindling with a delica, but that doesn't make it a hatchet or a fixed blade. you can cut boxes all day with it, but it'll never be as good as a utility knife for that purpose. you could use it for surgery, but it's not a scalpel. it seems ridiculous to imply that, because something can be pushed into a specific use that is clearly beyond it's designed purpose, it's perfectly capable. these knives are not built for making kindling. no knife that has a pivot that loosens simply from opening and closing the knife in normal use, or has a handle that flexes under light pressure, is made for hard use.

i feel like we've had this discussion before. i don't really want to rehash it again. i will say though, from reading your post, we agree on pretty much everything except the conclusion, which you seem tied to by bias. subjectively, a manix lw (no liners) has a more sturdy and confidence inspiring feel than an endura with liners. objectively, it's less likely to have blade play in use and it flexes less under pressure/torque. and a g10 manix and an endura with liners are not even in the same category of knife, in my opinion.

since you mentioned hollow grind vs flat, i'll say that's another point we agree on. the problem is that the hollow grind of the pacific salt is attached to a weaker pivot and handle, and a lock interface that allows movement.

you know the manix and the pacific salt are my favorite knives and almost exclusively the combo that i carry daily. there is plenty good reason for that. i am not crapping on either of them. i have used both of them harder than they were probably designed to be used and they are both still favored. that doesn't mean they are perfect.


really, we could settle this very easily. if you could choose between two knives that were exactly the same, but one had rock solid lockup and the other had the standard seki lockup, which would you choose? my guess is that you would go for the more solid feeling option.

Guess I misinterpreted your last post, my bad.

As to your last question, zero play is always nice, but a little rock doesn't keep me from enjoying a knife. In fact I'm a fan of triad locks like you and would be interested in a collab with Spyderco using one. Though I haven't tried a power lock and may prefer that to either.

[Tristan_david2001]

golden made c95 with visible / audible lock rock from light pressure applied to handle

https://streamlala.com/Xl247/

With my volume all the way up and ear up to speaker I could not make out any lock rock clicks in this vid. Nor could I even see rock..

[vivi]

golden made c95 with visible / audible lock rock from light pressure applied to handle

https://streamlala.com/Xl247/

With my volume all the way up and ear up to speaker I could not make out any lock rock clicks in this vid. Nor could I even see rock..

Maybe I'll try taking another video that's clearer, got the knife in my pocket today. It's definitely present though, I feel it every time with this one.

Just goes to show you that even the most confidence inspiring lockback can have rock but still be secure.

[The Mastiff]

All lockbacks will have some movement. It's part of the design. I have Seki lockbacks using the same geometry and design now over 30 years old and still going strong. The knives haven't changed IMO going by my latest Endura in M4.

They are what they are. Buy them or not. I keep on buying new ones and I have been happy with them. Other people apparently not so.

I have yet to see any chopped off fingers from Seki locks so if anyone here has proof please give us a link to some evidence.