If you are NEW to sharpening, or having DIFFICULTY, YOU NEED TO SEE THIS THREAD

[zhyla]

Awesome effort on this thread. But guys. Burrs are the enemy. Don’t form them in the first place, you’re just weakening the steel.

[mb1]

Excellent Shawn! I’ve said many times that if you could have a live mentor at your side, the sharpening learning curve would be SO much shorter. It was often a struggle to translate written descriptions and assumptions into reality when I was learning. This is the next best thing.

I look forward to some detailed deburring tutorial talk!

[Evil D]

Awesome effort on this thread. But guys. Burrs are the enemy. Don’t form them in the first place, you’re just weakening the steel.

Yeah I stopped deliberately trying to make one after realizing how much it can screw you on harder steels that are more prone to chipping off. Even trying to remove the burr often results in breaking it vs cutting it off and it starts to feel like you can't make any progress during sharpening. Now I either use a loupe or keep checking the edge under a bright light and once it doesn't reflect light anymore I stop. That's around the time you start seeing and feeling the burr form. I think for a long time people advocated for making heavy burrs but I also think that worked better with the more common steels from 40-50 years ago than it does with today's steels. Doing it with 420 vs ZDP is a world of difference.

[Deadboxhero]

Awesome effort on this thread. But guys. Burrs are the enemy. Don’t form them in the first place, you’re just weakening the steel.

Nah

[Deadboxhero]

Thanks guys, I'd love to see more folks share some close ups on edges.

Here is a link to the USB microscope I used.


https://www.amazon.com/Plugable-Microsc ... 57&sr=8-12

[Steeltoez83]

During the deburring passes it makes sense to give the stone a quick rinse to clear off the metal fillings. Alternating passes should feel like your sliding on glass. And you could do ultra light passes on the corner of a stone to pin point areas where a micro burr goes unnoticed. Makes sense to remove the burr on a stone that i can rinse off with water. Versus a strop that is left inside a plastic bag to avoid contamination.

[embry386]

If you have a hard time feeling a burr with your fingertip, try running your teeth lightly over the blade instead. Much easier to feel.

[Wartstein]

Very good and helpful thread, thanks!

- More pics, descriptions of burrs and how to detect and get rid of those might be really helpful for beginners (I don´t have the equipment to produce such pics)
- And one thing that might be a bit confusing for beginners: When for example watching the sharpmaker instructional dvd, the "burr" is not mentioned as an issue when sharpening: Just alternate passes (so not at first raising a burr on one side) and the knife will, according to Sal in that vid, get really sharp...

[zhyla]

Awesome effort on this thread. But guys. Burrs are the enemy. Don’t form them in the first place, you’re just weakening the steel.

I think for a long time people advocated for making heavy burrs but I also think that worked better with the more common steels from 40-50 years ago than it does with today's steels. Doing it with 420 vs ZDP is a world of difference.

There’s nothing good about the burr. People were just using it as a visual/tactile aid. But sure, it probably worked better on softer steel. Blows my mind that anyone would pay good money for nicely heat treated cutlery steel and then intentionally deform the steel at the edge. You’re just massively increasing the material you need to sharpen away to get back to good steel.

Also, burrs can be very deceptive. You think you sharpened it out but it really just straightened out. And then the first time you cut something harder than paper it rolls. Blech.

You want to learn something about sharpening, look at how we hone straight razors. There isn’t a sharper knife on the planet. Perfect control of the bevel angle and alternating sides on each stroke to prevent burr formation.

[Wartstein]

...

There’s nothing good about the burr. .....

As a guy who is considered to be a sharpening wizard by my non knife people social enviroment cause I can get a knife shaving and paper cutting sharp...
... but who is not really more than an advanced beginner in the context of this forum...
... let me ask: Do you mean by that that one should only and strictly do alternating passes, or that one can sharpen one side and then the other, but should try NOT to form burr?

[zhyla]

As a guy who is considered to be a sharpening wizard by my non knife people social enviroment cause I can get a knife shaving and paper cutting sharp...
... but who is not really more than an advanced beginner in the context of this forum...
... let me ask: Do you mean by that that one should only and strictly do alternating passes, or that one can sharpen one side and then the other, but should try NOT to form burr?

Not intentionally form a burr. I alternate every 10-20 strokes if I’m free hand sharpening. Use a marker if you need a visual aid.

[Cycletroll]

Great piece Shawn!
Wonder if you feel like commenting on leading vs trailing strokes?
Thanks

[vivi]

I've always felt edge leading strokes minimize burr formation, but I can get good edges with edge trailing strokes too.

Awesome effort on this thread. But guys. Burrs are the enemy. Don’t form them in the first place, you’re just weakening the steel.

I think for a long time people advocated for making heavy burrs but I also think that worked better with the more common steels from 40-50 years ago than it does with today's steels. Doing it with 420 vs ZDP is a world of difference.

There’s nothing good about the burr. People were just using it as a visual/tactile aid. But sure, it probably worked better on softer steel. Blows my mind that anyone would pay good money for nicely heat treated cutlery steel and then intentionally deform the steel at the edge. You’re just massively increasing the material you need to sharpen away to get back to good steel.

Also, burrs can be very deceptive. You think you sharpened it out but it really just straightened out. And then the first time you cut something harder than paper it rolls. Blech.

You want to learn something about sharpening, look at how we hone straight razors. There isn’t a sharper knife on the planet. Perfect control of the bevel angle and alternating sides on each stroke to prevent burr formation.

I agree, I always try to avoid forming a burr when sharpening.

They can be useful when reprofiling to ensure you've got a clean bevel all the way to the apex, but for a simple sharpening it's a waste of time.

[Evil D]

ZDP was the one that ruined me on burrs. I couldn't for the life of me "cut" the burr off, it just wanted to break off. So every time I would apex the edge, the burr would break off and suddenly I'm not apexed anymore and I've got this jagged fractured mess of an edge. A lot of that may have just been inexperience on my part, this was a lot of years ago but it's a lesson that really stuck with me. I've had similar issues with S90/110V too. Now I just try to sneak up on the apex without deliberately forming a noticeable burr. I think technically once you cross the apex of the edge you're going to make a burr no matter how careful you are not to, but for me it's just easier to try to make less. There's problem room there for me to learn a better way of cutting it off.

[Cycletroll]

I predominantly use edge leading strokes except when reprofiling where back and forth makes steel removal more efficient. Just wanted to see what insights Shawn had to offer since he went to the trouble of the original post.
Thanks for your data point too Vivi!

[Wartstein]

Using mostly a Sharpmaker I normally do alternating passes anyway (except when reprofiling and NOT having hit the apex yet. Then I might do even circular motions in the desired angle on just one side)

So I don´t have real experience with the method where one wants to create a burr deliberately.

Can anyone explain to me why forming a burr is preferable to just doing alternate passes (practically or even just in theory)? Except of course that on a stone it will be more convenient to sharpen one side and then the other over most of the process (on the sharpmaker doing alternate passes IS pretty convenient anyway)

[Wartstein]

Added to my post above:

After all the sharpmaker was actually created to get a knife sharp with "only" and strictly alternate passes. A method where in my understanding a substantial burr will not be formed in the first place, right?

But perhaps you guys are talking about achieving levels of sharpness I can just dream of.. ?

[Deadboxhero]

If we want to make this thread more interesting we should all have USB microscopes and take pictures of our edges and share, that will be a much more rewarding discussion than just conjecture which is boring.

If everybody could save a dollar a week for example, then in 10 months, we could all afford to purchase a USB microscope for $40 and then we can make this thread or a new thread more interesting with more objective and empirical discussion. That would be refreshing.

Perhaps maybe sooner if people can make the hard commitment and sacrifice of $40 to a USB microscope to enhance their knowledge and entertainment in discussing sharpening in more detail.

[Josh Crutchley]

If we want to make this thread more interesting we should all have USB microscopes and take pictures of our edges and share, that will be a much more rewarding discussion than just conjecture which is boring.

If everybody could save a dollar a week for example, then in 10 months, we could all afford to purchase a USB microscope for $40 and then we can make this thread or a new thread more interesting with more objective and empirical discussion. That would be refreshing.

Perhaps maybe sooner if people can make the hard commitment and sacrifice of $40 to a USB microscope to enhance their knowledge and entertainment in discussing sharpening in more detail.

I would like to see the edges from people that say no to burrs compared to yours on the first page. In your picture the scratch pattern is even all the way to the apex. I would imagine if trying to avoid a burr the pattern might get lighter at the apex in some areas.

It's a very good idea but few will follow up. I find myself doing touch ups a lot and I would never share pics of those edges.

[Deadboxhero]

If we want to make this thread more interesting we should all have USB microscopes and take pictures of our edges and share, that will be a much more rewarding discussion than just conjecture which is boring.

If everybody could save a dollar a week for example, then in 10 months, we could all afford to purchase a USB microscope for $40 and then we can make this thread or a new thread more interesting with more objective and empirical discussion. That would be refreshing.

Perhaps maybe sooner if people can make the hard commitment and sacrifice of $40 to a USB microscope to enhance their knowledge and entertainment in discussing sharpening in more detail.

I would like to see the edges from people that say no to burrs compared to yours on the first page. In your picture the scratch pattern is even all the way to the apex. I would imagine if trying to avoid a burr the pattern might get lighter at the apex in some areas.

It's a very good idea but few will follow up. I find myself doing touch ups a lot and I would never share pics of those edges.

I mean it doesn't have to be any kind of measuring contest, I'm not here to flex on anybody.

In this world we have what we think is happening and what is actually happening and the more tools we could use to rule things out and to see things more objectively and empirically always is rewarding and is nothing to be afraid of.


The spirit and intention of this thread is to keep things as simple as possible with less nuances and idiosyncrasies that overwhelm people that are just getting started.