Why put liners in the Delica?

[ugaarguy]

The rigidity added by the liners is just as ''important'' as the weight spared by taking them off.To each it's own,but i don't understand this anti-liner movement.Maybe it's a wish to relive times gone by,when we where young,and linerless?

I'm with you. Except for Salt models, I completely fail to understand why the little additional weight matters for practical carry, while liners sure give more overall toughness (and add material value, too). For example, for liner-less Native 5 vs liner'ed Native 5, the liners just add 17g (e.g., C41GM45 comes in at 88g, while the C41GDBL5 is 105g). Anything less than 110g total, I can't feel in my pocket anyways, and I can loose more than 17g just by skipping dinner once :) And then, people love clips on liner-less tiny knives, which add ~10g by themselves. Somebody explain me this.

In fact this trend of going liner-less for most new releases pushes me away from Spyderco. In my example above, a fully liner'ed M4 Native 5 would have been the bee's knees, but like that, oh well ....

Several years ago I had a linered Native 5 (G10, S30V). I could never get the clip screws tight enough to keep the clip from wobbling. I threw some slightly longer clip screws from a Benchmade into it, and that solved the problem. I called Spyderco and asked for slightly longer clip screws - they told me that wasn't possible. I called again and was able to talk to Eric himself. I told Eric about the situation and offered to send the knife in with both sets of clip screws so he could see the problem. He said that wasn't necessary because there was nothing wrong with how they were making the Native 5. You can also go look at my first posts on this forum, and see the problems I had with liners rusting on two different Taiwan made knives. At that time I'd voided the warranty by disassembling those knives. Because of that experience, I quit buying Spyderco knives for several years.

Liners trap moisture, as in my sweat, and that causes corrosion. A fully linered M4 N5 would be a rust bucket. Liners are often too thin to get a clip mounted as tightly as I'd like. Thread inserts allow for better clip mounting. I could give a darn about saving a few grams of weight - I just want the knife to work.

[wrdwrght]

Less chance of stripping the D holes out when fiddling around on them also.

My unlined K390 Urban has suffered a spinning pivot because of the plastic D. Opposing screws in the pivot would address the problem in an unlined Delica, I think, but not answer the 4-way clip option. The unsaltified Delica4 seems just right as is.

[ferider]

Liners trap moisture, as in my sweat, and that causes corrosion. A fully linered M4 N5 would be a rust bucket. Liners are often too thin to get a clip mounted as tightly as I'd like. Thread inserts allow for better clip mounting. I could give a darn about saving a few grams of weight - I just want the knife to work.

And that makes sense to me, thanks .... Except for the P4, I've yet to have liners corrode where I live. Just different climate, I guess.

So what would you say to an M4 Native 5 sans liner but with Titanium scales ? :) I've played with the idea of merging two Natives several times ....

[tangent]

As I stated, my reason for preferring the linerless version is due to the simplicity of the design and added benefits of corrosion resistance. I don't mind the weight of the lined version, but why have the added weight without really having any real benefit. How rigid does a folding pocket knife need to be? I find the linerless version is plenty strong for my uses...and probably for most.

[sal]

We have made linerless models and models with liners. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. I'm sure we'll keep studying the question as we provide both. Time teaches us a great deal.

sal

[StuntZombie]

We have made linerless models and models with liners. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. I'm sure we'll keep studying the question as we provide both. Time teaches us a great deal.

sal

Something I've been curious about, why do the Salt 2 handles have ribs, as opposed to just being solid FRN slabs?

[araneae]

Every time I hear someone state that liners make the knife tougher, I think about how many times I've seen reports of a broken unlined FRN spydie on this forum. It's 1 time, and it involved being run over by a bobcat. I'm not worried about it. I've also used unlined knives for a long time with no problems. I'm glad Spyderco gives us options.

[sal]

Hi Chris,

Lighter, just as strong. The tooling is more expensive, but we think it makes a better product for the intended use. We have an old line we've been using for decades; "No more than necessary, no less than perfect".

sal

[Doc Dan]

Some of us old fashioned types have thought that FRN knives with liners have more rigidity. I was not interested in the D3, but I love the D4. I have had a linerless FRN knife flex badly on me during a rescue (it was another popular brand, not a Spyderco). However, I fully admit that with the ribs Spyderco uses, the knives should be very stiff and not flex as much. Perhaps, because of my experience, I over think this. I do like the linerless (though thicker) Native LW construction and I love my Urban LW. The Urban LW is very stiff. The Dragonfly LW, as much as I like them, is not so stiff.

[tangent]

We have made linerless models and models with liners. Each has it's advantages and disadvantages. I'm sure we'll keep studying the question as we provide both. Time teaches us a great deal.

sal

I think one of my main reasons for bringing it up is the fact that I really like the linerless version but can only currently get H1 steel. Nothing wrong with H1 in serrated (or plain edge) but I prefer some other steels in plain edge for their better edge holding qualities. Would be super cool to have a Wharnie Salt in LC200N...just sayin'. :)

Keep up the great work, Sal... I sure do enjoy using Spyderco products.

[sal]

Thanx for the kind words, Tangent.

Another point to liners is providing a very rigid, obstinate hole for pivots. Whether or not the extra strength in the "real world" makes a difference is something we're still testing and learning.

sal

[SpyderEdgeForever]

Thanx for the kind words, Tangent.

Another point to liners is providing a very rigid, obstinate hole for pivots. Whether or not the extra strength in the "real world" makes a difference is something we're still testing and learning.

sal

I for one appreciate the fact that you and others do carry out those tests. Please keep we customers/knife users updated on that, sal, if possible.

And here is a related question: Would you ever consider producing a folder in which the blade and the liners were H1? Would H1 make good liner material or not?

[Wartstein]

...

Another point to liners is providing a very rigid, obstinate hole for pivots. Whether or not the extra strength in the "real world" makes a difference is something we're still testing and learning.

sal

Sal, I quoted you, since I´d have an just a bit off topic question if I may ask:

Looking at my Chap lw, I get the feeling that liners also make it possible to design very THIN handled knives, am I right in this?
I guess the Chaps FRN scales are so thin, that they would not work well without liners. But WITH the liners the Chap feels mighty solid while beeing very slim/thin and still light.

[Doc Dan]

I think you are right in this aspect of liners. There would be no real way to make carbon fiber, G10, or FRN scales this thin without liners of some kind. Love the Chaparral design inside and out.

[spyderwolf]

The rigidity added by the liners is just as ''important'' as the weight spared by taking them off.To each it's own,but i don't understand this anti-liner movement.Maybe it's a wish to relive times gone by,when we where young,and linerless?

I'm with you. Except for Salt models, I completely fail to understand why the little additional weight matters for practical carry, while liners sure give more overall toughness (and add material value, too). For example, for liner-less Native 5 vs liner'ed Native 5, the liners just add 17g (e.g., C41GM45 comes in at 88g, while the C41GDBL5 is 105g). Anything less than 110g total, I can't feel in my pocket anyways, and I can loose more than 17g just by skipping dinner once :) And then, people love clips on liner-less tiny knives, which add ~10g by themselves. Somebody explain me this.

In fact this trend of going liner-less for most new releases pushes me away from Spyderco. In my example above, a fully liner'ed M4 Native 5 would have been the bee's knees, but like that, oh well ....

Several years ago I had a linered Native 5 (G10, S30V). I could never get the clip screws tight enough to keep the clip from wobbling. I threw some slightly longer clip screws from a Benchmade into it, and that solved the problem. I called Spyderco and asked for slightly longer clip screws - they told me that wasn't possible. I called again and was able to talk to Eric himself. I told Eric about the situation and offered to send the knife in with both sets of clip screws so he could see the problem. He said that wasn't necessary because there was nothing wrong with how they were making the Native 5. You can also go look at my first posts on this forum, and see the problems I had with liners rusting on two different Taiwan made knives. At that time I'd voided the warranty by disassembling those knives. Because of that experience, I quit buying Spyderco knives for several years.

Liners trap moisture, as in my sweat, and that causes corrosion. A fully linered M4 N5 would be a rust bucket. Liners are often too thin to get a clip mounted as tightly as I'd like. Thread inserts allow for better clip mounting. I could give a darn about saving a few grams of weight - I just want the knife to work.

My problem with the anti-liners (as with the pro-choils) is the fact they have this all or nothing mentality.There already ARE so many linerless,choiled Spydercos-why this obstination to make them ALL that way?I don't go around screaming the PM2 will be so much better without a choil,or the frn DF2 will be great with liners.

[ugaarguy]

The rigidity added by the liners is just as ''important'' as the weight spared by taking them off.To each it's own,but i don't understand this anti-liner movement.Maybe it's a wish to relive times gone by,when we where young,and linerless?

I'm with you. Except for Salt models, I completely fail to understand why the little additional weight matters for practical carry, while liners sure give more overall toughness (and add material value, too). For example, for liner-less Native 5 vs liner'ed Native 5, the liners just add 17g (e.g., C41GM45 comes in at 88g, while the C41GDBL5 is 105g). Anything less than 110g total, I can't feel in my pocket anyways, and I can loose more than 17g just by skipping dinner once :) And then, people love clips on liner-less tiny knives, which add ~10g by themselves. Somebody explain me this.

In fact this trend of going liner-less for most new releases pushes me away from Spyderco. In my example above, a fully liner'ed M4 Native 5 would have been the bee's knees, but like that, oh well ....

Several years ago I had a linered Native 5 (G10, S30V). I could never get the clip screws tight enough to keep the clip from wobbling. I threw some slightly longer clip screws from a Benchmade into it, and that solved the problem. I called Spyderco and asked for slightly longer clip screws - they told me that wasn't possible. I called again and was able to talk to Eric himself. I told Eric about the situation and offered to send the knife in with both sets of clip screws so he could see the problem. He said that wasn't necessary because there was nothing wrong with how they were making the Native 5. You can also go look at my first posts on this forum, and see the problems I had with liners rusting on two different Taiwan made knives. At that time I'd voided the warranty by disassembling those knives. Because of that experience, I quit buying Spyderco knives for several years.

Liners trap moisture, as in my sweat, and that causes corrosion. A fully linered M4 N5 would be a rust bucket. Liners are often too thin to get a clip mounted as tightly as I'd like. Thread inserts allow for better clip mounting. I could give a darn about saving a few grams of weight - I just want the knife to work.

My problem with the anti-liners (as with the pro-choils) is the fact they have this all or nothing mentality.There already ARE so many linerless,choiled Spydercos-why this obstination to make them ALL that way?I don't go around screaming the PM2 will be so much better without a choil,or the frn DF2 will be great with liners.

I'm not sure why you quoted my post to make this point. I didn't start this thread. If simply explaining why I prefer liner-less knives offends you, I'm sorry. I do have two Spydercos with liners, technically a liner each, a Dice and a Domino. The titanium liner under the show side scale on each of those is much thicker than the steel liners on most Spydies, and also much more corrosion resistant. I don't have a problem with liners per se, but I am quite frustrated with how Spyderco has implemented them in many designs.

[ugaarguy]

Thanx for the kind words, Tangent.

Another point to liners is providing a very rigid, obstinate hole for pivots. Whether or not the extra strength in the "real world" makes a difference is something we're still testing and learning.

sal

Sal, have y'all looked into using a hex (or other polygon) capped female bolt inset into a recess molded into the handle? As an example, Kershaw does this on many of their models, including the GFN handled Link and Dividend, even though both have full length steel liners.

[StuntZombie]

Hi Chris,

Lighter, just as strong. The tooling is more expensive, but we think it makes a better product for the intended use. We have an old line we've been using for decades; "No more than necessary, no less than perfect".

sal

Thanks for the info Sal. I had a suspicion that was the case, but it never hurts to ask.

I'm certainly not anti-liner on everything, and honestly wouldn't care if they weren't the source for most of the corrosion I see on a knife. And I can imagine using something like LC200N as a liner would increase the cost rather dramatically on a knife that might be priced at the threshold for what people are willing to spend.

I've wondered if it is possible to manufacture liners that are included in the handle molds. In other words, all the metal is completely encapsulated by the FRN.

[sal]

Hi SEF,

H1 liners do present their challenges due to the rolling of the different thicknesses. We use LC liners in the Caribbean models, but it does increase the cost.

Warstein,

As I mentioned, liners do have some advantages. Support for thinner scales, as you mentioned, is one of them.

Ugaarguy,

We've been playing with inserts in a number of our knives for clip screws. We're always looking for better solutions which is the purpose of CQI.

Hey Zombie,

It's possible, but the direction we would lean toward is rustproof liners or no liners.

sal

[Sumdumguy]

Hi SEF,

We use LC liners in the Caribbean models, but it does increase the cost.

Sal

Do you know what the exact upcharge is? It can't be too much, the knife is only $165. Which is a bargain for what you get.

Thanks again for producing such a fantastic knife, I truly feel that this is your greatest design yet. I hope you sell enough to justify building the one with the Titanium Integral Compression lock you spoke about in the past.

On a side note, I thought I had lost my Caribbean the other day and oh my... I've lost knives before, but never have I been truly sick to my stomach over it.

Fortunately, I found it the next day. It was under a tarp I had been using while working under one of my cars. Crisis averted!