More CPM 3v coming?

[Cliff Stamp]

Or unless they want the extra apex stability to play with more acute edge angles.

Yes, that is why I said failure by fracture, that is how those other steels would fail at lower angles.

[The Mastiff]

In general, it is very rare for folders to fail by lack of fracture toughness because it is very difficult to actually load a folder in that manner. The only real way it is likely to happen is chipping the edge, but there is a fairly decent amount of people who actually like the performance of S110V and similar steels (10V, S90V) and these steels are very brittle with low apex stability. If that kind of steel isn't failing due to chipping then steels like 3V make no sense (for those people) unless they can't sharpen them.

It's easy to find reasons most of the steels available to us don't make sense if one wants. Just as easy as it is to find reasons these same steels do make sense. If this was WW2 and the government offices told the cutlery companies what was available and how much they could purchase it might matter more. If we are willing to buy, and in fact demand steels with gluttonous amounts of elements in them with attributes that aren't needed for folding knives then there will be foundries that make the steel, and specialty high performance cutlery companies that craft the blades for us. Enterprise at it's best offering us what we want. Not what we are told we want. If not this company than someone else will fill demand.

We are spoiled. Imagine what someone in the 1960's would have thought of the waste of it all. The new mattress I recently bought has titanium springs.

-shrug-

[VashHash]

Personally if we're going the fixed blade route might I suggest a forester sprint?

Jerry Hossom uses 3V in his customs. Just a thought. Sure cost would be up there but still cheaper than one of his custom pieces. Also white micarta handles. Just saying.

[Ankerson]

Personally if we're going the fixed blade route might I suggest a forester sprint?

Jerry Hossom uses 3V in his customs. Just a thought. Sure cost would be up there but still cheaper than one of his custom pieces. Also white micarta handles. Just saying.

There are more than a few really good makers around that use 3V and swear by it. :)

[VashHash]

Personally if we're going the fixed blade route might I suggest a forester sprint?

Jerry Hossom uses 3V in his customs. Just a thought. Sure cost would be up there but still cheaper than one of his custom pieces. Also white micarta handles. Just saying.

There are more than a few really good makers around that use 3V and swear by it. :)

I don't doubt that at all. But Jerry has done work with spyderco before. Making it possible to do a sprint also no molds or anything were used for the knife.


Edited to add: i also just want another Forrester....

[Ankerson]

Personally if we're going the fixed blade route might I suggest a forester sprint?

Jerry Hossom uses 3V in his customs. Just a thought. Sure cost would be up there but still cheaper than one of his custom pieces. Also white micarta handles. Just saying.

There are more than a few really good makers around that use 3V and swear by it. :)

I don't doubt that at all. But Jerry has done work with spyderco before. Making it possible to do a sprint also no molds or anything were used for the knife.

A fixed blade in 3V would be nice I think. :)

[Donut]

What about a Rock? :)

I'd like it in a somewhat normal folder just to try out... I don't think I'd carry a fixed blade.

[VashHash]

What about a Rock? :)

I'd like it in a somewhat normal folder just to try out... I don't think I'd carry a fixed blade.

Have to use a Japanese steel. I'm sure they have something similar.

[Johnnie1801]

I was just browsing the Spydiewiki and saw that Spyderco have never made a Mule from 3v. Is it normal for Spyderco to release a knife (Schempp Tuff in this case) in a particular steel before making a Mule? Is 3v a difficult steel to work with and could this be a reason why we don't see it more? I see Bark River use a lot of 3v in their fixed blades.

@Jim - when are you going to design a nice little 3"-4"edc fixed blade for us? :)

[Ankerson]

I was just browsing the Spydiewiki and saw that Spyderco have never made a Mule from 3v. Is it normal for Spyderco to release a knife (Schempp Tuff in this case) in a particular steel before making a Mule? Is 3v a difficult steel to work with and could this be a reason why we don't see it more? I see Bark River use a lot of 3v in their fixed blades.

@Jim - when are you going to design a nice little 3"-4"edc fixed blade for us? :)

If Sal wanted me to I have some thoughts etc. :)

And some designs, one that a knife maker is using now for a standard type EDC general use type fixed blade.

Just a general classic type design that works very well.

[The Mastiff]

There are more than a few really good makers around that use 3V and swear by it. :)

I really like 3V. In folders as well. It's a great steel and putting it in a folder doesn't lessen it's desirability. 4V is pretty darn nice too. I agree with you that it does very well at higher hardness's than 3V. My Big Chris at rc 63 is pretrty much perfect for my uses and I'd like it in a folder done just the same.

I don't think I would be getting any 3V at rc 63, but it only has .80% carbon amongst other things. It also seems to lose strength faster above rc 60 percentage wise than 4V does according to charts I've read. Cruwear is similar in that respect with working hardness levels up to rc 64-65 in comparisons rc 62 max pretty much for 3V.

They are different steels and respond differently. I have only one knife in 4V as opposed to 8 I've had/still have in 3V so I do still have a lot of learning of 4V to do. I like it a lot so far and find it's another well balanced steel and is very suitable for sharp, tough , wear resistant edges.

[dogrunner]

Spyderco makes great knives, but there are already lots of fixed blade knives out there in 3V. Custom and production. I still would prefer a 4V or 3V mili or PM2 :)

[Cliff Stamp]

If we are willing to buy, and in fact demand steels with gluttonous amounts of elements in them with attributes that aren't needed for folding knives ...

People get gold plated teeth, however they don't do so because of the function. If people were actually talking about issues they were having with teeth, then gold doesn't come up as it isn't a function based choice. However when people start talking about jewelry and decorations then it does .

I was responding to the discussion of performance of 3V, how it performs as a steel and how that performance relates to use as a knife, in particular a folding knife. If you want "bling" then get your gold teeth. Its your life, do what makes you happy. Again, it was the properties of 3V I was responding to, not the bling of having it.

[Cliff Stamp]

I don't think I would be getting any 3V at rc 63, but it only has .80% carbon amongst other things.

Martensite hardness maxes out at ~0.6% carbon at ~66 HRC. The reason why 3V generally is kept at ~60 HRC is the hardenability is fairly low, it doesn't respond well to an air quench for example and demands a much faster quench to avoid diffusion softening. The typical way to try to avoid this is to raise the soak temperature but again this changes the micro-structure significantly from using a lower soak and a faster quench, see the discussion on HF for the full details.

It also seems to lose strength faster above rc 60 percentage wise than 4V does according to charts I've read.

The strength would generally increase with hardness, assuming a given microstructure. If you meant toughness, well that is why you don't read marketing charts for reasons I explained in the above. Typical charts are showing you steels at different micro-structures, that is why there can be a dramatic change in toughness.

[Ankerson]

There are more than a few really good makers around that use 3V and swear by it. :)

I really like 3V. In folders as well. It's a great steel and putting it in a folder doesn't lessen it's desirability. 4V is pretty darn nice too. I agree with you that it does very well at higher hardness's than 3V. My Big Chris at rc 63 is pretrty much perfect for my uses and I'd like it in a folder done just the same.

I don't think I would be getting any 3V at rc 63, but it only has .80% carbon amongst other things. It also seems to lose strength faster above rc 60 percentage wise than 4V does according to charts I've read. Cruwear is similar in that respect with working hardness levels up to rc 64-65 in comparisons rc 62 max pretty much for 3V.

They are different steels and respond differently. I have only one knife in 4V as opposed to 8 I've had/still have in 3V so I do still have a lot of learning of 4V to do. I like it a lot so far and find it's another well balanced steel and is very suitable for sharp, tough , wear resistant edges.

Joe,

4V is still new so the makers have to work on their HT protocols and find what works best for them, but from what I have seen so far my opinions are positive. :)

Time will tell in the end though.

Jim

[Bodog]

Is it so much to ask for a folder with a super thin blade that's run at a 60+ Rockwell hardness, keeps a fair to great edge cutting anything and everything, AND that's hard to break doing random things knives really aren't meant for but used that way anyway?

[Cliff Stamp]

... a folder with a super thin blade that's run at a 60+ Rockwell hardness, keeps a fair to great edge cutting anything and everything, AND that's hard to break doing random things knives really aren't meant for but used that way anyway?

Traditional Japanese knives are made like that commonly, lots of people do custom work. Kyley Harris makes lots of knives like that in various styles :

[Ankerson]

Is it so much to ask for a folder with a super thin blade that's run at a 60+ Rockwell hardness, keeps a fair to great edge cutting anything and everything, AND that's hard to break doing random things knives really aren't meant for but used that way anyway?

It doesn't exist.

[Cujobob]

Super thin and abuse don't go together. Maybe something like a PM2 in Cruwear (and I say PM2 because the lock seems very durable)

[Cliff Stamp]

Super thin and abuse don't go together.

That is a Robert Herder paring knife, the spine of the blade is thinner than the edge on most folding knives. It is zero ground, full flat grind with a micro-bevel. The raw reality is that most people think knives have to be far heavier ground than necessary because :

-knives now commonly use extremely brittle steels
-heat treatment often puts steels in embrittlement zones

The second one is a boggling mistake but it happens very frequently because people are trying to hit the magical 60 HRC and people are under the severe mistake that fracture toughness increases as hardness decreases.

-issues with handle ergonomics / security cause high loading of the blade during cutting
-blades are generally ground so the failure point is in the wrong spot

The last one happens on almost all blades because of issues with edge configuration and it is another case of extremely poor design. The knife should be designed so it fails in this order :

-apex
-edge
-blade

However, most knives are designed so they tend to fail in this order :

-edge or blade
-apex

which makes no sense at all.

For an example of what can be done when strong and tough steels are used by someone who has a practical approach, see work by Jeremy McCullen for example. He routinely takes blades down to the 0.005" range with full blade grinds on thin stock and uses tough and strong steels and then breaks them in use and shows just how much it takes. The work he does with them before they break has long passed what most people would consider abuse. The grinds he runs on large chopping blades are thinner than what most people think are thin grinds on folders :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ovZZmZ2RcA" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The edge on that chopping blade is 0.013" . That is much thinner than most folders and now have a look at the impacts and think about if a folders is going to take similar in use.