Spyderco Fire Steel?

[NiallRiv]

Would love to see a Spyderco firesteel!! I typically make my own handles (which if you havnt ever done, its a SWEET and fairly easy project) but it would be so cool to get factory fire steel from Spyderco to go with, say, one of my mules. Plus, it could be a great eco-friendly way to use up any scrape handle materials they have (not familiar with the process, maybe they already do!) Just as long as it is a quality fero rod that throws good hot sparks, as I'm sure Spyderco would do. But to be fair, if Spyderco wants to release a "Spyderco lighter" id obviously buy that too!

[demoncase]

A ferro rod makes a lot of sense for one very clear reason. It is by far the most waterproof option that exists.

True to an extant, though this here is definitely the sine qua non of waterproof fire-starting


Though you might want to stand back a little to preserve your eyebrows :D

[tvenuto]

Tisk tisk Demon, don't you guys have Smokey Bear over there?

No, read my initial post, my issue is with how they are argued/promoted, especially how they are compared to lighters.

I did read your post. Read the posts before yours, fire steels were not "argued/promoted," but rather explained, and they were not compared to lighters. So this was a pet argument you decided to make irrespective of the posts preceding yours.

In your initial post you said:

Now I am not saying knowing how to prepare tinder to be able to light a fire from a spark isn't useful, it is just odd to base choices which start with a given handicap. Imagine designing a knife handle which only allows a grip with the thumb and index finger because you might get your other fingers broken in "survival" situation. Again, learning how to use a knife with a damaged hand is useful sure, but designing and carrying a knife with a built in injured hand restriction is a bit odd.

This analogy distorts this issue. You admit there is a good reason to practice different scenarios when your life is not on the line, but your analogy does not relate to carrying a fire steel. The analogy really should be this: you want to practice doing camp tasks with a broken arm, so you put your right hand in your pocket for the rest of the day. Again, this costs you nothing (like carrying/practicing with a fire steel), and you can always take your right hand out of your pocket. Carrying a fire steel does not automatically render all other methods of starting fire useless, they offer unique advantages and do not require waterproofing, and it costs you nothing to carry and practice with. Of course you may argue that it is stupid to carry a fire steel and eschew a lighter, but that argument was never made here, and I can't possibly see how anyone could argue that it is categorically dumb to carry a fire steel in absolute terms.

[bearfacedkiller]

A ferro rod makes a lot of sense for one very clear reason. It is by far the most waterproof option that exists.

True to an extant, though this here is definitely the sine qua non of waterproof fire-starting


Though you might want to stand back a little to preserve your eyebrows :D

On a serious note you make a good point. Never hurts to be too prepared and I have been known to throw some of this overkill in my pack as well. It is not an incendiary grenade but is a little extreme. The reference to someone carrying a road flare was me. How does 5 minuntes at 3400 degrees sound for only 8oz plus it can be used to signal? Maybe we could get a Spyderco road flare?

http://www.orionsignals.com/product-gro ... ct/97.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jmh58]

:eek: :eek: I too carry Vaseline cotton balls in a film canister in my day pack!! Great fire starter.. And a BIC lighter too with my Gob spark ferro rod!! John :)

[Johnnie1801]

Well this thread has really sparked into life :D

Cliff, the reason I want a ferro rod in my kit is simply that it gives me another option for starting a fire. Through personal experience I have learned that I like to have options. 9 times out of 10 a lighter is a no brainer and it will certainly be part of my gear but as BFK has pointed out they don't always work. I have used BIC's, clippers, Zippo's and expensive butane gas lighters and I have had problems with them all, in rain and howling wind they don't work as they normally would. I can't afford to waste time trying to get a lighter to work when my hands are frozen and my finger joints are stiff, it drains morale and wastes time. A good quality ferro rod gives me the option to try something else before I get mad and throw said lighter half way down a mountain :p

As for the plastic bags, I again agree with BFK, they are not 100% impermeable. I have been lining my rucksack and gear with plastic since I was about 12 or 13. Again 9 out 10 times it's sufficient to keep everything dry but I have been in situations when a summer day has turned to a summer storm and the rain has penetrated just about everything (except the half bottle of vodka I keep for emergencies, lol).

Every year dozens of people die in the mountains where I come from, some experienced, some not so. I don't want to become one of those statistics. When I go out into the wilderness I want to have the right gear with me that I know I can depend on. Mother nature is not a tamed force and I'd rather be over-cautious and prepared than dead.

That's why I think it would be pretty cool for Spyderco to offer a fire steel for some of their knives (if not with the knife then as an optional extra). I trust Spyderco and I know they would give me a tested product that caters for my options.

@Demoncase, if you've got a couple of spare incendiary grenades would you mind sending them to me? I'd love to "gift" them to my neighbour next Christmas, lol :D

[Donut]

Cliff is definitely the Fire Steel in this conversation. :)


I'm not too familiar with why survival experts have high opinions of fire steels. What do these crazy people, who go out in the woods and practice surviving, know that I don't know?

If I'm not stuck, the ease of a lighter is the way to go. If I have the choice to use a lighter, I will choose the lighter. I won't get upset if I have to put a little tinder together to make a fire steel work just as good as a lighter.


I do like to see everyone's opinions and comments.

[Blerv]

While a lighter would be more ideal I could see Spyderco integrating a rod into the sheath somehow for very little cost and not impacting the silhouette at all. For example, somehow stitching it into the seam of the sheath. You would have to remove it (the sheath) from your belt for use but 99% of the time it would be out of the way and not an eyesore.

More of a back-up solution than anything else.

[Johnnie1801]

While a lighter would be more ideal I could see Spyderco integrating a rod into the sheath somehow for very little cost and not impacting the silhouette at all. For example, somehow stitching it into the seam of the sheath. You would have to remove it (the sheath) from your belt for use but 99% of the time it would be out of the way and not an eyesore.

More of a back-up solution than anything else.

I agree Blerv, also for the boltaron sheaths they could just make a kydex holder that would fit between the sheath and the g-clip using the same screw positions.

[Peter1960]

Am I the only one or do you also miss Cliff Stamps charts ... :p

[Cliff Stamp]

So this was a pet argument you decided to make irrespective of the posts preceding yours.

The argument I noted which were illogical and the comparisons against lighters/matches which are unfounded were made almost immediately. The reason for the post was to make a comment about the lack of desire I would see to have Spyderco once again leverage a fad vs actually innovating function.

...your analogy does not relate to carrying a fire steel.

All you are doing effectively is taking a new lighter, removing the fuel and then taking that and using it via spark to create a fire. Yes, it is worthwhile knowing how to make a fire via a spark. It is however insensible to start off by removing the ability of an instrument because at some point it might fail and be reduced to that. It would be like not taking bullets because at some point you will run out of ammunition so the gun will be reduced to a club.

Now again, I would not oppose some saying they carry a ferrocerium rod because :

-it allows them to practice tinder preperation
-the rods are at times more practical/easy to carry (or even legal)
-they can be used to teach fire starting to people you might not want to carry matches/lighters

and similar arguments. But again just as noted in the above, they are constantly being compared to lighters and being argued to be superior because of arguments which are at times directly logically fallacious such as :

I'm not too familiar with why survival experts have high opinions of fire steels. What do these crazy people, who go out in the woods and practice surviving, know that I don't know?

and other times trivially false and rely on heavily distorting the reality of lighters/matches.

[Cliff Stamp]

I have used BIC's, clippers, Zippo's and expensive butane gas lighters and I have had problems with them all, in rain and howling wind they don't work as they normally would.

Take a look on this forum, see how frequently people complain about the Sharpmaker and the fact it can not sharpen their knives, that in fact at times it makes them worse/duller. When you see these comments does it lead you to conclude that the Sharpmaker is problematic? Is that conclusion well supported by those claims?

A lighter is the same as any other piece of equipment, it takes skill and knowledge to use it and without either they can break. Butane for example, in extreme cold, will not vaporize well, hence lighters should be carried next to the body. They are commonly used here in such a manner even when it is -20 to -30 C . I used to prefer the wind proof strike anywhere matches until they became very hard to get. I stopped using them though when I realized they were making me very lazy with tinder preparation as they burn so hot for so long.

In wind a normal lighter will blow out, the windproof ones are extremely resistant to it. However just follow a smoker around and watch them light up a cigarette in fairly adverse weather fairly easily. I have used various brands in extreme winds (it gets 120+ km/hr here commonly) and had more difficulty trying to contain the fire material than the lighter and not setting the entire woods on fire. I tend not to use them however (the wind proof ones) because they are seriously expensive and they are common targets for theft. But who steals a $1 lighter.

While the windproof lighters are very wind resistant, I never saw that as a significant practical advantage because unless you have a significant amount of very special tinder or very particular natural material (birch bark, dense ever green needle branches, etc.) then the first step in making a productive fire is protecting it from wind/rain. A fire is pretty fragile initially and it doesn't take much to put it out and even a wind proof lighter focused right on tinders won't start a fire if the rest of the material is exposed to significant wind/rain or heavy snow.

It is much easier with two people then one, but even with one the simplest thing often is to just build a mini-shelter to protect the fire and just let the fire burn it once it gets going. Depends on the weather though, what you are facing specifically. I still have wind proof lighters, I carry them at times but it is rare to actually have them and have it be a functional advantage, and the fuel consumption is extremely high. They are useful though as small torches.

In the winter it is usually easier because we get deep snow here commonly (it is easily over 6' here now all over the place, not even counting high drifts) so it is easy to get out of the wind/rain/snow. In the fall it is hardest as it is cold (can be 0 or below), wet and the winds are high, often 120+km/hr.

As for the plastic bags, I again agree with BFK, they are not 100% impermeable. I have been lining my rucksack and gear with plastic since I was about 12 or 13.

Note I cited a specific application, how to wrap a lighter in a bag which prevents the seal from being opened through mechanical loading. Have you actually tried the method I specifically described.

[tvenuto]

Unfortunately you've still failed to convince me, and the crime syndicate that's behind the artificially inflated fire steel market laughs at your attempts to reason us out of this fad!

[bearfacedkiller]

Enough derailment. To address the OP's post, which is all I should have done in the first place.

Spyderco is not in that business and from my experience nothing compares to the products from Gobspark. The sparks thrown from a dead Bic lighter are a firecracker compared to the Hiroshima sized sparks thrown by my Gobspark Armageddon. The sparks thrown from Gobspark's competitors while very adequate are still not quite as good as Gobspark's. I can light a cotton ball from three feet away with my gobspark if I strike it hard enough and throw enough sparks. They sizzle and crackle for a few seconds after landing even. Truly an amazing ferro rod. The best thing Spyderco can do is team up with them and offer it along with the Bushcraft or Temp 2 or some other survival knife. I carry Esee and Becker for these roles so to be truly honest, it is of no interest to me because while I love my Spydies I will always have a Becker fixed blade and Gobspark with me when I am in the backcountry.

[Johnnie1801]

Hi Cliff, I'd just like to add that I'm not saying that a fire steel is better than a lighter and likewise neither are the others. A fire steel is just something extra that can be added to your survival kit at little cost. Like I mentioned earlier, I like to have options and a fire steel gives me another option for starting a fire. I'm the same with knives, BFK mentioned he likes to carry 2 knives, maybe I'm a bit unusual but I like to carry 3 or 4, that gives me the options I require.

We talk a lot on this forum about comparing steels and we always come to the conclusion that we can't compare performance because of different ht, geometry and grind etc etc. I think the same goes for environment, we all live in different places and have different requirements. I have spent many years in the Scottish Highlands and as beautiful as it is, it can also be a very harsh environment. I don't want to go into that type of environment unprepared because it can kill me.

I don't see that adding the option to have a fire steel on Spyderco knives to be a big problem. I'm sure they would sell and make a profit (if they are made by Spyderco or not). If you don't see the value in one then that's fine, you are not obliged to buy one. Persoanlly, I would buy one and I would buy a zippo at the same time (if the zippo doesn't work I can always remove the fuel soaked cotton wool and light it with my fire steel :) )

[JD Spydo]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I see a butane based lighter as something that can structurally fail. How many years do butane lighters hold their pressure?

The highlight of a fire steel in my eyes is the low maintenance. I can put a fire steel away for emergency use... and 20 years later, no matter where it's been, it is going to work.

You just gave me an idea DONUT >> Maybe Spyderco & ZIPPO could do some kind of collaborative effort to create a firestarting kit. I have had those Bic and other disposable lighters fail on me before in outdoor backpacking and camping but I've never had any of the ZIPPO lighters let me down yet. But just for insurance it wouldn't be a bad idea to have a ferro-rod handy as a back up>> you could make a kit out of it with one of Spyderco's Bushcraft models.

Now I do appreciate what the one Brother said that Spyderco needs to stick to what they do best and that is to make knives and sharpening equipment>> and there is a lot to be said for staying with your own game and doing what you do best. But on the other hand with the "survivalist and prepper movement getting as big as it currently is at this time it would be a shame not to capitalize on it somehow.

There are great points and counterpoints that have been made on both sides but I kind of like the idea at face value because it sure would give Spyderco some great exposure to the outdoor and survivalist sector of the market and would probably sell many knives in the process.

[Cliff Stamp]

Unfortunately you've still failed to convince me, and the crime syndicate that's behind the artificially inflated fire steel market laughs at your attempts to reason us out of this fad!

Is this your pen?

If you don't see the value in one then that's fine, you are not obliged to buy one.

I have been using ferrocerium rods for a long time, with and without magnesium blocks. I noted in the above several reasons why in general they can be sensible choices. My point here is that the common arguments for them are not valid and it is just another fad which has produced a huge hype ball of misinformation. Simply because someone points out an argument used to justify a choice isn't valid, it doesn't follow that it is being argued that the conclusion is inherently wrong.

As I have noted in the above, if someone said :

"Spyderco knives have great steel, it is the best heat treated steel I have seen, it slices paper effortlessly!"

That argument is invalid. A piece of mild steel, unhardened can easily be sharpened to an edge to shave and slice paper trivially. However the conclusion could still be true. In fact in general I would support that the conclusion is generally sound (Spyderco does do quality hardening) however irrational arguments lead to misinformation, hence the comment.

[tvenuto]

however irrational arguments lead to misinformation, hence the comment.

Ohhhh I see now. Misinformation: bad. Got it.

[dewildeman]

Would it have a Spydie hole?

[bearfacedkiller]

I am sensing a disruption in the force.