Let's talk about the upcoming phil wilson b&t (sprig)

[Tdog]

Lance, thanks for sharing the pics. Wasn't sure what that fish was. Previous pic had hidden head. Looks like the weakfish or speckled trout we catch only bigger. The Corvina fins have more yellow and the scales are larger. The meat on that also looks like it may be better. Did you catch that on bait or artificial lure? btw nice fillet job. When you can see thru it definitely done right. My job keeps me way too busy. Take care

[Surfingringo]

Lance, thanks for sharing the pics. Wasn't sure what that fish was. Previous pic had hidden head. Looks like the weakfish or speckled trout we catch only bigger. The Corvina fins have more yellow and the scales are larger. The meat on that also looks like it may be better. Did you catch that on bait or artificial lure? btw nice fillet job. When you can see thru it definitely done right. My job keeps me way too busy. Take care

Hey bud, I got that one on a 3 1/2" Crystal Minnow that yozuri makes. And yes, the meat on these is excellent. We ate some fried and some as sashimi today. As far as the fillet work, these are a somewhat challenging fish because of how prominent the mid spine is. I like to use a shorter knife and work from both top and bottom. On fish like these I can usually do a tighter job with a shorter stiffer blade than I can with a longer fillet knife.

Btw, you aren't fooling this Louisiana boy. Those specks yall get eat pretty **** good too.

[Cliff Stamp]

I'm playing with some finishes in the 600-1000 range right now and am pleased with the results I'm getting so far.

It is going to depend on how you cut exactly, but if you use a draw/slicing motion, you might have favorable results with a much lower grit finish. I have gone down to 36 grit which works very well on cardboard, hemp and even used carpet and sharpened a few fillet knives for locals who do not favor push cutting style filleting. There is a small adaptation initially because the cutting action is a little different, but the edge retention on a slice is extreme. At times I often finish the entire edge to a higher grit then use the lower grit on the leading section as some people split/head with the same knife using the portion closer to the handle which requires a higher grit finish and ideally angle.

[Cliff Stamp]

Do Spyderco make their models from as thin blade stock as Phil Wilson?

They use similar blade stock as the customs, however the primary grind is a little heavier leaving the edge generally thicker. To be frank, Spyderco needs to take a serious look at this because it isn't difficult at all to find production knives which are ground as as thin, or thinner than Phil's customs.

The critical thing is just how those knives are promoted, it is simply based on their cutting ability and ease of sharpening - not on any claims of durability/toughness. The problem comes when you grind that way and give the impression about knives being able to be used in ways that the geometry isn't capable of handling.

As an aside, lots of people do regrinds to any extent you want and it isn't even difficult to do it yourself with a little knowledge of abrasives.

[Ankerson]

Do Spyderco make their models from as thin blade stock as Phil Wilson?

They use similar blade stock as the customs, however the primary grind is a little heavier leaving the edge generally thicker. To be frank, Spyderco needs to take a serious look at this because it isn't difficult at all to find production knives which are ground as as thin, or thinner than Phil's customs.

The critical thing is just how those knives are promoted, it is simply based on their cutting ability and ease of sharpening - not on any claims of durability/toughness. The problem comes when you grind that way and give the impression about knives being able to be used in ways that the geometry isn't capable of handling.

As an aside, lots of people do regrinds to any extent you want and it isn't even difficult to do it yourself with a little knowledge of abrasives.

Not hardly other than some kitchen knives, but then that's hardly a comparison and the steels they are made in are hardly comparable for the most part.

Most production knives in general, that's folders and fixed blades are in the .018" to .035" range, very few go below the .015" range out of the box, even fewer below the .010" range and fewer yet in the .005" range.

So keeping things realistic and not delusional the above in more like real life in the real world and what most people who buy production folders and fixed blades will see and experience when they buy quality production blades.

There are a few notable cheap knives made in stamped steels like the Opinals that are generally in the .010" to .012" range but the performance level of these are extremely low when compared to the higher quality knives in the more advanced steels. That's based on real testing and actual real cutting and not someones delusions. They go dead at under 300 cuts on 5/8" manila rope, that's bone butter knife dull from my own testing. Compared to something like S30V at 300 cuts is still cutting and has a usable edge, again this is based on real cutting and real actual testing.

Not someones delusions...

From my own testing 12c27 was done at 120 cuts on 5/8" rope and dead dull at under 300 cuts.

XC90 was done at 80 cuts and dead dull in under 200 cuts on 5/8" rope.

And that's sawing with a lot of pressure because they had lost bite and took like 20 or 30 strokes to get through the rope, bone dead dull...

[tvenuto]

Maybe I'm just delusional, but I don't see how a statement that "most production knives" do X or Y or are like X or Y, makes any difference to the discussion of how thinly a knife could/should be ground. Is your argument that this aspect should not be looked at because most other companies grind to a particular thickness? Given that (it seems to me at least) a significant aspect of Phil's knives are how thinly he is willing to grind certain steels, is this not an interesting discussion to see if this production collab can come close to matching that? It seems to me that spyderco is particularly interested in pushing the boundaries of what people consider a production knife, especially with these custom collaborations.

[Ankerson]

Maybe I'm just delusional, but I don't see how a statement that "most production knives" do X or Y or are like X or Y, makes any difference to the discussion of how thinly a knife could/should be ground. Is your argument that this aspect should not be looked at because most other companies grind to a particular thickness? Given that (it seems to me at least) a significant aspect of Phil's knives are how thinly he is willing to grind certain steels, is this not an interesting discussion to see if this production collab can come close to matching that? It seems to me that spyderco is particularly interested in pushing the boundaries of what people consider a production knife, especially with these custom collaborations.

You haven't seen some of the knives I have over the years that have been in the hands of morons and the result is not good when they are too thin for the masses.

Production companies aren't stupid and they have to take everything into consideration when they develop a model not knowing who will end up with the knives.

So they generally grind them thicker to build in some added strength in case some get stupid with them and it does happen.

For every one person who actually knows how to use a knife and with some common sense there are thousands who have no clue.

[Cliff Stamp]

It seems to me that spyderco is particularly interested in pushing the boundaries of what people consider a production knife, especially with these custom collaborations.

It isn't pushing any boundary for geometry unless your only experience with knives are the common tactical / high carbide steel blades. There are lots of production knives which are ground thinner than Phil's customs and they are used daily by regular people without issue because of the way they are promoted which is clearly based on cutting ability and ease of sharpening.

The real problem is this, you have to realize that not everyone who looks at a Temperance and then at a very similar looking knife which has a 0.005"/10 dps edge knows that there is a huge difference in the functional scope of work. If you don't make this clear then it is likely someone could use one for the other, have it damaged and then conclude some kind of "junk" steel/blade/hardening, etc. .

Now is Spyderco completely incapable of that kind of marketing? I don't think so because as noted, lots of people do it.

[Ankerson]

It seems to me that spyderco is particularly interested in pushing the boundaries of what people consider a production knife, especially with these custom collaborations.

The real problem is this, you have to realize that not everyone who looks at a Temperance and then at a very similar looking knife which has a 0.005"/10 dps edge knows that there is a huge difference in the functional scope of work. If you don't make this clear then it is likely someone could use one for the other, have it damaged and then conclude some kind of "junk" steel/blade/hardening, etc. .

That's the real problem in clear English and why it doesn't happen much in general.

There will always be some idiot that will do something stupid with it then post a video on YT or start a thread someplace telling everyone how much the knife sucks.

We have all seen these types of things more than a few times over the years and the knife companies also see them.

[Ankerson]

I still remember the time I was at a friends house a long time ago when he and I heard this pounding in the kitchen.

Well we went in the kitchen to find his wife hammering a custom Japanese kitchen knife through some frozen meat with a rolling pin.. :eek:

As one would imagine the knife was wasted, a $600 custom knife wasted, the extreme damage was ugly.

All it takes is one idiot and a minute of stupidity.

[Phil Wilson]

Back to the question of how Lance is sharpening this knife. He is experimenting with different abrasives and grits and has narrowed down to a range he is looking at. In general on my knives I like an aggressive edge for the range of uses they are intended. A range of 320 or so to 600 grit has worked best for me for an all around edge for fish and game. The knife was sharpened initialy with an 600 grit Lansky diamond plate and I was very happy with how that sharpening complimented the steel grade and hardness. I have a EZ Lap 600 grit that seems a little finer but still give the edge I want. We shall see what Lance ends up with and it will be excellent feed back for me. This guy catches a amazing variety of big fish with tough skin and bones. In addition on the discussion of how fine I grind a blade to; it depends on the use, the steel grade, hardness and other factors. I see mention a lot of-- "Phil does not grind that thin". Well, I have done blades at .004 or so and also at .025 or more. I just did a fillet knife for a guy who wants to slice through the bones behind the head on a Redfish and that one was an average of .025. It is a matter of the right balance of all the factors not a standard dimension I work to. Phil

[Phil Wilson]

I also want to contribute a little on the subject of custom knife grinds and production knives. Custom guys can skirt the edge of disaster (broke and chipped blades) a lot closer than production companies. It is a matter of risk management. I can interview a potential user and get a good idea of how the knife will be used and also the experience of the user and make it to those specifications. I miss the guess and get a knife back and it is one knife to deal with. The same mistake with a production company and it may be 500 knives. There is a design safety factor on building structures, aircraft and the like and this is sometimes 100% or more. As designs get better, materials improve and actual in use feedback becomes available then the there is more confidence overall and the factor can be reduced. Same with knives. What Lance (S Gringo ) finds out will add one more point on the experience curve. There is now some some history with the South Fork and CPM S90V in a production fixed blade so I am guessing here that the safety factor can be reduced some on future knives. A guess-- since my input is just one of many when it comes to a collaboration and final production design, The edge geometry is just one factor in knife performance so again it all has to be balanced together for cutting efficiency. I know Spyderco will cut it just as fine as they can (yes pun)
Phil

[Surfingringo]

I've only been back in Costa Rica for a couple of days but I have been wrecking the big snapper and sea bass! I have used my fillet knife and sprig for hours already. I have learned much and already pushed both knives to the point of failure during normal cleaning duty. By failure, I simply mean microchipping and minor edge rolling.

Here's my take on the thinner grinds. Cutting performance increases greatly, but so does the likelihood of edge damage. Yes, sometimes people do idiotic things with knives but that doesn't mean that exploring the limits of a particular grind is idiotic. Like Phil pointed out, everybody's use and requirements are different. I was cutting through large snapper ribs today and did minor edge damage to both knives I was using. I learned a good bit from that about the steels and the grinds though. Sometimes the only way to explore the limits of an edge and grind are to push it to the point where it begins to fail. There is a cautious and prudent way to push those limits and then there is hammering a $600 custom through frozen meat with a rolling pin. :D

[Surfingringo]

And as far as edges go, right now I'm running the fillet knife at 325 grit and 25-30 degrees. It's nasty! The sprig I've been sharpening at 600-1000. I use it a lot to push cut the filets off of small mackerel and honestly it just feels too **** awesome with that edge to put anything more coarse for now.

[MCM]

Cool thread! Its going to a great knife. Phil let me check it out at Blade.
Great discussion, I don't even have to say a word. Fun reading Lance, Jim's, Phil's and Cliff's posts. :D

[Surfingringo]

The m4 has been really impressive. I have really pushed the knife hard, cutting through a lot of rib bones. Today I even used my off hand against the spine to push through larger bones. Pretty extreme force and I'm sure there was some unintentional side loading. When I got in I examined the blade and there was ZERO chipping. The worst was a tiny little shiny spot where the edge had either flattened or rolled. Barely perceptible with the naked eye and it sharpened out in 10-12 passes. Pretty dang impressive for a thinly ground blade imo. Remember, Phil took this m4 to 65! Can't wait for the spydie b&t to come out...I can't get enough of these designs!

Here's a shot of me pushing through some bone on a big rock snapper.

[Ankerson]

Sounds like Phil hit it dead on for what you wanted to use the knife for. :cool:

Geometry, Hardness etc.

[Ankerson]

Back to the question of how Lance is sharpening this knife. He is experimenting with different abrasives and grits and has narrowed down to a range he is looking at. In general on my knives I like an aggressive edge for the range of uses they are intended. A range of 320 or so to 600 grit has worked best for me for an all around edge for fish and game. The knife was sharpened initialy with an 600 grit Lansky diamond plate and I was very happy with how that sharpening complimented the steel grade and hardness. I have a EZ Lap 600 grit that seems a little finer but still give the edge I want. We shall see what Lance ends up with and it will be excellent feed back for me. This guy catches a amazing variety of big fish with tough skin and bones. In addition on the discussion of how fine I grind a blade to; it depends on the use, the steel grade, hardness and other factors. I see mention a lot of-- "Phil does not grind that thin". Well, I have done blades at .004 or so and also at .025 or more. I just did a fillet knife for a guy who wants to slice through the bones behind the head on a Redfish and that one was an average of .025. It is a matter of the right balance of all the factors not a standard dimension I work to. Phil

Hi Phil,

Great post. :cool:

How are you supposed to know what the customer is really going to use the knife for if you don't ask, if you ask and they lie well that's on them in the end.

If someone tells you they are going to use a knife for skinning and light processing and you make a knife according to that then they turn around and try and use it to pop out hip joints and cut through the sternum on an Elk the results not going to be as you said a positive one.

Jim

[Surfingringo]

Sounds like Phil hit it dead on for what you wanted to use the knife for. :cool:

Geometry, Hardness etc.

Yes, I believe he did. Especially the grind. I'm not saying he didn't nail the heat treat too (because obviously he did), but I think he would have gotten the most out of the ht for anyone. The grind was done specifically for me and how he knew I would be using the knife, and i think he got every bit of performance he could out of this steel while still leaving it thick enough for a heavy handed user cutting tough fish. I believe he said this knife was .014 behind the edge. Based on what I have done with this one so far I think Spyderco would be relatively safe taking the b&t to that level. That may not be as thinly ground as some of Phils customs but I believe that would be significantly thinner than the grind on the production southfork wouldn't it? I think they could take it to that level and still have a knife that was relatively "donkey proof"...or "Lance proof"; the two are often synonymous. :o

[Ankerson]

Sounds like Phil hit it dead on for what you wanted to use the knife for. :cool:

Geometry, Hardness etc.

Yes, I believe he did. Especially the grind. I'm not saying he didn't nail the heat treat too (because obviously he did), but I think he would have gotten the most out of the ht for anyone. The grind was done specifically for me and how he knew I would be using the knife, and i think he got every bit of performance he could out of this steel while still leaving it thick enough for a heavy handed user cutting tough fish. I believe he said this knife was .014 behind the edge. Based on what I have done with this one so far I think Spyderco would be relatively safe taking the b&t to that level. That may not be as thinly ground as some of Phils customs but I believe that would be significantly thinner than the grind on the production southfork wouldn't it? I think they could take it to that level and still have a knife that was relatively "donkey proof"...or "Lance proof"; the two are often synonymous. :o

I don't know what Spyderco is going to do with the SPRIG, I know it will be S90V, the rest would be a guess at this point.

The SF is more of a general use hunting knife, mine was .021" behind the edge before it was reground and that seemed to be fine from most of the feedback I read.

Whatever Spyderco decides to do I am positive it will be a real performer like the SF. :spyder: